Reddii

I've always read about people being told to check their pack leadership status and thought - 'I know I'm the leader, don't have to worry about that'.......until last night. My 17 month BC Bitch got away from me at sheep herding and was a bit naughty with one of the sheep and took quite a bit of calming down (albeit it in only 15 secs or so). Then I started thinking, is it a pack leadership issue and how do I tell if I am leader of the pack........ Reasons I think I am: She will sit and wait for as long as I tell her to before touching her food. She will leave anything I tell her to. If there is trouble or potential for it she turns to me or hides behind me. She will let me through the door first unless I tell her. She is (usually) good at walking on a loose lead - EXCEPT WHEN SHE IS EXCITED. Her recall is good, except when she is around sheep and a couple of other things - which is when I have to use another tone. Reasons I'm not sure..... See above. At times if there is something more interesting than what we are doing eg: new agility club - must check out field, sheep, swimming opportunity - she will go an investigate and I have to get quite harsh (tonally - not volume) to get her back. She will bark at me and tell me off when I make a mistake at agility. If we are at the dog park playing ball I have to tell her twice to come back to me and she REALLY does not want to leave - but will. (harsh tone again) Other things to consider - she is quite a shy, submissive dog until she gets to know someone and is then is quite sensible - OH and I are really the only ones she gets majorly excitable with. She is beginning to test the boundaries for the first time. There have been no changes in our household, except for the gradual increase in the workload of our 12 month old BC, but his has not impacted on her activity in any meaningful (to me) way. She sleeps in her crate and goes there when she is told. She does not herd the cats inside the house, but wants to kill them if they are in our yard when I let her out of the house - neutral territory off lead - no problem. Neutral territory on lead - doesn't want to kill, but seriously wants to chase. Aside from Sheep herding she does formal agility training once or twice a week, practices basic obedience (just because I want her to - she will heal off lead and could easily be CCD titled if I trialled), does flyball and is 98%reliable and ignores the othe dogs there and is pretty good at frisbee. If we aren't at training we are in the back yard practicing at least at night if not morning and night. Long story short - how do I take stock of whether I am the pack leader and what should do to ensure it?

:p Don't know how you do it - I have enough problems changing between my two BC's. Basically the dogs have become my life. 4 or 5 nights a week, plus weekends. It's just a matter of being as commited as I can, but having to realise that there will be times when the dogs are going to have to miss a day here or there when life gets in the road. DON'T feel guilty when this happens and don't try and make up missed sessions. As long as you are having fun and they are going forward then it is all good.

Oh......to have the luxury of actually considering sleeping in past 5am! I have to get up at 5 every day to take the rat bags out for their walk/run/training before work. On the weekends I can usually leave them until about 6:30 before she gets a bit restless. then I take them out for toilet and let them back in to our room to lie on the floor. It has taken until about 16 months to get to this stage though. I agree with a couple of the others - quite difficult to let a pup bark at 5am no matter what the reason or desired result and not be run out of town!

As kids we had a BC called Shadow - he was the most gorgeous dog I have ever known. Totally untrained and out of control as a kids dog was in those days, but loved us to death and never left out side. We have pics of him jumping alongside a 5 ft pool fence and clearing it with his hind legs from a standing start. He never once left the yard though, unless the gate was left open by mistake. Funniest thing ever was (going further ) was when a big doberman Shadow used to fight with through our gate jumped into the yard one night and ate his food. Dad was watching, but was in his 'pj's' and could not do anything but watch. Any way, the dobe came into the yard, finished off Shadow's dinner, had a drink all without Shadow making a sound or coming into view. (Was only a 1/4 acre block so he had to be hiding just out of sight). Mr Dobe had had his fill and jumped back over the front fence. By the time his front feet had hit the ground he had a rabid border collie telling him to keep going and not come back at the gate behind him! :D

:D I thought my boy was the only BC in the world who fell out of the lazy dog tree!! Seriously though, I have two of the little terrors. My 17 month bitch is a complete psycho and is the definition of the reason so many people end up surrendering their Border Collies - destructive, exciteable, high drive. I just love her to bits and she will do anything for me - except tolerate bad handling at agility - then I get a stern talking to in dog talk! My boy is from show lines bred for temperament and conformation and he could not be a more different dog. Once he is in drive he will keep up with the girl and is probably even a bit more driven. But if I don't have him 'up' he is on the floor sleeping (except for when he wants to play with his best mates, our other dog or the cats). We have even had to keep him in a small run for six months due to an injury and had no problems with him as a result. Hi nature also makes it much easier for a newby to dog sport as I'm not having to constantly try and calm him down so he can think through what he has to do. He just gets it and gets on with it. Long story short, just sounds like your boy is well bred and has a fantastic off switch which makes them soooooooo much easier to live with. ETA - if you are concerned about him I agree, best to get him checked out by your vet.

I was taught two different ways - same result, but depends on your dog and outlook. with both methods the key is to make sure you start off with VERY small distances and on lead. Put you dog in position (sit, down, stand - both mine found down easier to begin with (lazy!)) and tell them to stay in your command voice. At the same time bring your hand across your body and into their face as if you are closing the door (this is just the hand signal for further down the track). Then take 1/2 a step away for a second or so and return to your dog - make sure that when you get back you give heaps of praise for the stay. Then as you dog is more and more solid at that distance increase your distance and/or time. The big thing is not to put too much pressure on the dog by increasing this too quickly. The other key in both methods is not to let you dog break the stay - once they do this they know they can and will. This is where the two methods differ. 1. - I'll call it aversive or correction based because i'm not sure of the true wording. When your dog breaks a stay quickly grab them and give a quick correction (I was taught using a check chain) a loud 'arrrgh'. and then put them back on the spot with another correction. ONce they are back in position - heaps of praise and begin the process again. Theory is that your dog will get the picture that if they break a stay they will get an unpleasant correction and stop doing it. I taught my bitch this way and in hind sight it was too harsh on her and took a few months to totally win her confidence back - ie: when I put her on a stay and returned to her she always thought she was going to get a correction and shied her head away. That said she is now almost 100% solid on her stays - even in the middle of a flyball ring! The only time I have a problem is when she gets too excited at the start of an agility sequence. 2. Positive reinforcement. When your dog breaks a stay calmly take them back and put them back on the spot, no fuss, no eye contact. Once they are back in position heaps of praise and the same whenever you return to your dog. I used this with my boy and while his stays aren't quite as solid yet (he's still very much a puppy at 12 months) there are other benefits in the way we are bonding. ETA - at four months he was already pretty good at his stays and will now at 12 months mostly holds his stay even amongst other dogs that are running around playing. (I can only get about 6 feet away and definitely not out of sight.) I find I now use a combination of the two with both dogs. Put my dog on a stay, if I see it start to move I'll verbally correct it, and if it totally breaks the stay I'll then calmly put it back on the spot. As I said the big key is not to work too quickly on this and HEAPS of praise for doing the right thing and working out whether your dog will react better to a neutral response or correction if they get it wrong. I'm sure others will have more input, but hope this helps.

According to the article the subtleties in how the tail is wagging (which way) suggests the cause of the arousal.

http://science-community.sciam.com/thread....eadID=300004512 Both my dogs are pretty good with others on and off lead, unless a dog charges CK in a boisterous/aggressive manner (usually behind a gate when we are on a walk), then he can be very reactive - no barking, just lunging and the occasional growl. (I'd get a bit up tight too I think!) I THINK it is protective behaviour and nothing to be concerned about as we have been working quite hard on this and he is beginning to look to me when it happens instead of taking matters into his own hands. Any way, in the course of researching I found this article and thought it might be of interest to some people - seems that just because your dog is wagging it's tail furiously it might not mean it's happy.........now, if only I could tell which way the tail is going!

Sorry, but you have to love working dogs don't you! We have the same problem with possums - it's our fault because when Xena was a tiny pup we used to chase them off the deck and make a big noise about it because we found if you shoo them away 2 or 3 times they don't tend to come back - same in the back yard. Now whenever I go out in to the back yard and don't give her another 'job' she sits underneath one tree and keeps 'possum' watch, but only when I am out there. If she sees them on the wires out the front she goes completely mental as well (not allowed on the deck without me). Sounds like your dog is working in a similar way. We are slowly reversing the beahviour by giving her another job (could be tugging, could be sitting, could be playing with a ball) and REALLY rewarding her (think jackpot) when she is focussed on the job at hand and not the possum. This seems to be working in two ways - keeps her mind off the possum and focussed on something else (sometimes), but also tells her we are not concerned about the possums and therefore she doesn't need to be either. Only other solution is to get rid of the birds!

I think I must be the luckiest man alive. BOTH my dogs go in the garden so I leave it there to break down and add to the compost! Other than that it gets picked up daily, but now they have the run of the yard and aren't stuck in their runs we are pretty much rid of that!

Those are good solutions for containment, but I guess the question that this scenario poses is; why is the dog trying to escape? I know some dogs just find the act self-rewarding, but kelpies are extremely intelligent dogs with a lot of drive. Is it possible that the dog is mentally understimulated or not getting enough exercise? How long is it home alone for during the day and how is the dog escaping? Also, what is it next door that the dog is interested in reaching? I think you've hit the nail on the head, whilst it's not kept at home alone - there is always someone there - it is understimulated. She laughs at me when I talk about the amount of training I do with my two BC's. (running late for agility as we speak!) She thinks there is another dog there and that is why he is running off. I've told her to work out how the dog is getting out as a starting point, but I really think the answer lies in more work on her part. Just thought I'd see if there were any suggestions I hadn't thought of.

A friend of mine just asked me a question because I am the local dog nut at work. She has a Kelpie Cross who at 10 months has decided that next door is far more exciting than home. If the gate is open he bolts, if the gate is shut it is finding a way out. I've said find out where it is getting out and block the escape route and invest some serious time in recall (it has next to none apparently.) Aside from that tie it up during the day or keep it inside until the problem is solved. (OH is always at home) Any thoughts on where she can turn next - I've suggested a professional trainer to help her out, but any suggestions would be appreciated.

I know how difficult and stressful a situation like this is for you - we had a similar problem with a pup with severe s.a. and a loony neighbour from 3 doors away about 12 months ago. Although we didn't get a formal complaint I did check with our council (Brisbane) to find out where we stood and understand the process. The first time around you get a warning that there has been a complaint. Then if there is another complaint within a fortnight (regardless of whether it is the same person) you get a visit and a formal warning. The complainant and other neighbours are interviewed and asked to fill in a diary of when the barking is occuring. This is then substantiated by the ranger (not sure if that's what they are called, but the dog dude any way) who will sit out the front of your place and listen for your dogs. (basically they are allowed to bark for 10% of any hour or half hour depending on the time of day.) From memory it is at this point that you get a first fine and 30 days to fix the 'problem'. From there it gets progressively more seriouswith fines until you can be asked to remove your dog/have your dog seized. All up there is a lot of onus on the people complaining and it is a lengthy process, but at the end of the day seems quite fair. There are strict time frames around when complaints need to be made and the whole process resets once those time frames have been passed. Best thing to do is check with your council about their regs though. Hope you work through your problems and it all turns out OK.

Hi there, I'm not sure about the answers to all or most of you questions as I'm very new myself, but have just worked through the rear feet/knocking jumps thing. I taught my boy to walk along a ladder that had been laid on the ground - really teaches them where their hind feet are. The other thing I'm working on is feet on one point and walk around in a circle - just another way to give them awareness of where their hind feet are. I also think you need to stop your boy on the dog walk before he hurts himself at it. Perhaps go back to a lower height or even contact planks on the ground and then work back up to it. I had the opposite problem with my girl. she got blown off the dog walk twice one night and was a bit scared of it. We had to drop the height, but she is now full bore at full height again. With the lead thing - not much help there as both mine are pretty focussed on me or at least the treat I have for them so I've never really had much need to have them on lead - just lucky I guess. Hope this helps get you started. Tony

I have to brag about Xena, my 17 month BC. We had our first flyball race on Saturday night. The team had a few challenges, but we had some great results in the team and a heap of fun into the bargain. Xena only made 1 mistake on the night - I think I let her go a little too soon and she ran down the outside of the hurdles on her second run - she has only been crossing for about 4 weeks and still gets just a little neverous with the other dog coming towards her as she approaches the hurdles - fine the other way though! Apart from that she was 100% for the night and was running in the 5.9 to 6.5 second bracket Also - did not get any slower as the night wore on! Then at presentations she lay down and had a sleep, I actually had to wake her up to go and get her encouragement award. :p Now I just hope she goes as well in Canberra next year!

Sounds a bit like my BC girl. She is so exciteable and when she meets someone she knows she starts to squeal and jumps up at them wanting to kiss them on the nose - no aggression, but certainly not acceptable beahviour. (Caveat - not an expert and haven't seen your puppy so I might be wrong.) We've had to be really strong and make her sit before he gets any attention - it is finally working at 17 months. Also - with the no cuddle thing - Xena didn't really like cuddles either, but now sits beside me for as long as I'm happy to pat her - quite funny having a BC lap dog! Don't know that I've helped that much, but I'd say keep at it and make sure you stay consistent.

Thanks to everyone - plenty to think about.

Hi all, Just wondering if anyone has any ideas that might be able to help me out. Xena is a psycho 17 month BC who LOVES agility - starts whining when we drive past where we do agility and the lights are on. Once we get there she gets SOOOOOO excited and that is something I don't really want to and have been encouraged not to put a stop to. Wednesday just gone we had a mock comp and Xena was awesome - contact equipment was great, jumps perfect, tunnels all fine and turns and crosses were great too (surprised everyone as she's only just begun sequencing). The only problem we ran in to was weavers - she knows how to weave and practises it at home 2 or 3 times a week plus agility and even some at flyball. Just about all the time she is fine with the occasional mishap/missed weaver, but when we get to agiliity and particularly the other night she just tries to go through them too fast and ends up missing poles. The trainers have said it's just excitement and she will calm down in time so I'm not too worried, but was wondering if anyone has any advice on how I might be able to help her focus a little better? Thanks in advance. Tony

:p I completely agree with what you have said, except for the fact that two very well exercised and trained dogs can also occupy themselves with major destruction - 18 months ago I used to have a nice garden, now I have two well trained dogs and heaps of holes/tracks....... Sorry, nothing useful to add though except to say that while our two sleep inside in their crates they are just as happy outside on the back deck. It's just that they wake up and decide to play and that I'm afraid of toads that they come inside. Not sure I'd be happy with them in my room though. I don't really see the difference between in the laundry in their crates and outside.

I don't think it is ever too late eiither - you might just have to handle things a little differently. We went through a bit of a rough patch with my boy who was basically locked in our back yard between 4 months an 6 months with an injured elbow. He was really badly behaved with other dogs for about 2 months, but has settled back down to be by and large a good citizen now at 12 months.

I'm not going to go for an all over clip on CK (VERY thick double coat) for all the reasons mentinoed above, but it was suggested to me the other week that I get him clipped from his 'arm pits' to under his hind legs. Has anyone done this/seen it done and the results?

Two things I've come to realise are incredibly important: An open mind - both in terms of new ideas and training regimes and in terms of what you actually want to achieve with your dog - sometimes the partnershp is just not capable of it and needs to look in another direction. A sense of humour - they are going to make you look like an idiot and you are going to have to laugh at yourself. I have also learned that I don't believe dogs don't do things on purpose and that they do have a sense of humour too - why else would she run 200m away from the sheep we are herding, bark at the sheep in another yard and then run back to the job at hand as though nothing had happened....... I just have to learn to work with it and laugh with her/at me. I also have to learn that she knows best and will tell me when I am not doing something right - listen to my dog, whether she is telling me she's had enough or wants to do more she is right. I'm still working on both 1 & 2, but don't really have a choice on 3!

My two are always 'at it' they are quite close in age so are constantly testing each other. Every so often Mr 12 months who is increasing in attitude every day will over step the mark and be put in his place by Miss 17 months and it sounds like the world is coming to an end, but it is not serious and ends very quickly. From what I've been told it's the quiet ones (fights) you have to look out for.

I'm not a nutritionist, but my dogs are doing very well on dry food (Royal Canin for one, Eukanuba for the other) and a mix of chicken, mince, bones, eggs, sardines and some veges thrown in for good measure. Both will be on the RC once the Eukanuba runs out - it just didn't really agree with one of them. I think as long as you vary what you feed widely they should be OK. If things take a turn for the worse have a look at what you have added to the diet lately. Again - not an expert, but from my limited experience.

Where is the place in Browns Plains FTPO? I'm sick of paying retail and if I can find a better way I'm all for it! Cheers. Tony