Reddii

Both mine started back a 10 days after they had their op, still a couple days before he stitches came out. I know a lot of people don't like their dogs around dog areas before the stitches are out though. Cheers.

Thanks. I'm keen to get back just so I can get Xena into level 3........CK is already there, but Xena is still in level 2 because Malina was handling her when we started and I haven't taken her to a grading night. Might have to have a chat to John about watching her work. She's probably more level 4 than 3 even, will just have to wait and see what he says.

Hi there to all the Southsiders in Brisbane, I missed a lot of the back end of last year at SDOC because we were off doing other things on Monday nights, but we are coming back and looking to get into trialling this year. Does anyone know when they are back at it? Cheers. Tony, Xena & CK.

Hey there, You probably do remember us if your memory is really good. We ended up only doing 2 events early in 2007 because CK cracked his elbow and we decided if both couldn't do it we wouldn't go. This year will be different though - little buggers both LOVE frisbee as well. I train over at the flyball fanatics (RSPCA). It's just a little more relaxed than Awesome Pawsome who are brilliant with their training and really competitive, but their training time doesn't really suit my job. It's meant to be fun, but is pretty full on at the moment because the team wants to go well in Canberra (nationals) so we are training 2 nights a week rain, hail or shine - just as well most of the clubs are not training or I'd be going mad! Look forward to seeing you at frisbee this year! Cheers. Tony

Hi Laffi, I do flyball because both my dogs LOVE it and because it is heaps of fun without too much work on technicalities like in agility and obedience. (We do those too, but flyball is a bit of a release.) To give you an idea my girl will stand in the rain at the gate to the field whining waiting to be let in. Usually she won't even go outside to pee if she can see clouds (slight exaggeration, but she certainly won't go out in the rain). I originally got into it because i mistakenly thought having a ball obsessed dog was a good thing for a flyballer. (Xena will stand and stare at a tennis ball for 15 minutes hoping it will move!) Turns out the key to it is not ball obsession, but drive to get BACK to you, so if you dog is not ball obsessed, but will tug it is a big bonus. Think of it this way. If your dog is ball obsessed and they get the ball then they have their reward, but if you have something that is a higher value than the ball then they will be quick back to you. Fortunately for me I've built into both dogs that the ball is only good if I am connected to it so they are more than keen to get back to me - others have not been so fortunate and have had to do a lot of work on this one. The only down side I see to flyball is that it does REALLY hype most dogs up and if you don't have a good 'off switch' for your dog it can be a bit of a PITA. Other than that it is a fantastic sport - people aren't over the top serious and the focus is on having safe fun with your dog. Oh yeah, the exercise doensn't hurt either the dog or the handlers either! Where abouts are you in Brisbane? Cheers Tony

I can second this. Tracey is really good and Colin has a wealth of experience and they really do work WITH you and your dogs to get a great result. I did the last workshop with Colin and it was a really worth while weekend. ETA: Eric at the Mt Gravatt show grounds is really good as well, he does have a different method to Colin which is a little harder on the dogs physically (NOT cruel or harsh) and has similar thoughts, but it just depends on how you want to work your dogs. My boy responded really well to Colin, whereas my girl is probably better suited with Erics methods as she is a little hard headed.

Not sure where the nearest club would be, but at our club as long as you have a good recall to a motivator and they aren't too interested in other doggies/can be called back from them they are fine. I found some agility training really helped because they know that if there is a jump in front of them it is their job to go over it, but it's not essential. Some of the dogs are reasonably well trained in obedience and this seems to make them easier to manage than the more 'full on' dogs who don't have as much discipline put on them. (Chicken or the egg, I wonder.....) I'm sure other clubs have other criteria, but basically as long as you can get your dog back to you and they have good body awareness then it's a good starting point and the rest can be taught. Also checkout www.flyball.org.au for a list of clubs. Cheers.

Oh I'm intrigued! Hmmm......have to try and fit it all in that weekend as well. Can't wait for the first event of the year!! It's been far too long. CK is turning into a great disc dog, I can't believe the drive and focus he's developed (I think he's still scarred by Damian asking if he really was a border collie ), not to mention how well he is catching . Xena is also coming along really well after our little problems - wouldn't catch or return the disc!!!! :p :p She's catching everything she could be expected to and now brings it back most of the time, but occasionally decides there is something more exciting than a dead frisbee on the ground and heads off to investigate! The solutions are either more training for her or to improve my throwing so that she never misses the frisbee!! Looking forward to seeing everyone. I might even be able to talk Malina into having a go this year - she's been practising in the park of a morning! Tony, CK, Xena and Malina

Thanks guys, That's really helpful - breaking it down isn't something we do that much after the dogs can run successfully. Will suggest that and get one of the others to help me out with their dogs. Cheers. Tony

Hi all the flyballers out there, My girl (tiny 19 month old BC) LOVES flyball (think sits in the teeming rain at the gate to the field looking longinly and you are there) and is going really well. She has done her first comp and with the exception of 1 run was 100% reliable running in the mid 5's all night. the other week we had a bit of a setback. She crashed head on into one of the other dogs as they were passing (Xena's fault). The other dog thought she meant it and chased her across the park telling her off. Fortunately the other dog was one of the dogs who could be called off when in drive and there was no damage done. The two have since made up and are now friends again. (human talk I know, but the piont is there is no aggression or fear between them) Next time out Xena was chased by a dog from the other lane on her first run. SOOOOOO.......as you can see she's had a couple of bad experiences. She still loves flyball and is getting quicker as she does more runs, but the problem we have is that she is very wary when it comes to passing and anything closer than an 8 foot pass will result in her missing the first hurdle. We are working on this by slowing decreasing the passing distance, but I was wondering if anyone had any ideas that might help in the process. She is quite a soft dog and I don't want to put too much pressure on her, but at the same time if you do have any ideas I'd love to hear. Cheers. Tony

How do you teach the dog to "give" up the item on cue? I try this and Pepper just keeps her hold, so desperate to "win". Is this what is known as drive? I'd also love to learn how to teach her "gentle" and "off"!! With the former, I get worried sometimes as she pulls with such strength for a tiny dog. With the latter, I normally just get up and walk away from the game. I'm sure you'll get other answers from more experienced people than me, but the way I taught this was simply to stop 'tugging', but keep hold of the object and use a cue word - for one of my dogs it's 'mine' and the other dog it is 'enough'. They both need me to be involved in the game for it to be any fun so stopping the tugging motion stops the game. Once they let the tug toy go I'll begin the game again - this way they learn that when I say enough it is best to stop as it is the only way to get another game. Hope that makes sense.

That's a really good point. I've used both purely harsh aversive and purely positive (at the RSPCA, where I still train for flyball and race with their team) and found that neither on it's own works. Interestingly they were contstantly at me for correcting my dog/s, until I got a 4 month BC to hold a stay with distraction for 3 or 4 minutes. Since that point not a word! Now I use a mix that is different for each of my dogs and different again depending on the situation they are in. I can understand though why some people feel purely positive is the way to go and should be promoted. After seeing the way some owners (mis)use a check chain on relatively soft dogs there is an argument there, it may not yield the best result, but it will save the dogs a lot of grief.

While I'm not sure I agree with all of what Mark has said I certainly agree with his sentiments. We need to be able to pick and choose the training methods that best suit both our dogs and us for given activities. I think we need to be careful thought not to make this thread about the RSPCA. There are plenty more people out there who advocate purley positive training methods. RSPCA is just one organisation with these views.

yes, owner is probably a better word, although I consider I am my dog's handler when we are agility trialling, herding etc. That said I'm not confident I am equipped to handle major problems or a very dominant dog, nor am I very experienced. Essentially what you are saying (and answering my question along the way if I am right) is that from a pup it would be rare for anyone with experience, knowledge and commitment to have unmanageable problems develop, barring unforseen events and badly wired dogs. I guess put another way, do you consider the vast majority of the problems we see in dogs to be the result of a lack of commitment or are there 'problem dogs' - ones that a somewhat experienced owner might not be able to deal with.

I was thinking the other day how lucky I am with my two dogs - no real behavioural problems and both coming along quite well in our chosen dog sports. There are just a couple of things I'm not entirely happy with, but we are making good progress on. Barking in their crate when their mate is working and a manic hatred of possums (my fault) are two that come to mind immediately. So not really major stuff in the scheme of things. At least some of this I put down to our dedication to the dogs, but obviously a large amount of it is inbuilt. Boy dog is a little bit challenging as he grows up, and my girl is very exciteable, but neither really challenges me in a serious way. Yes, there are challenges and training issues to be worked through, but most people would be delighted to live with them the way they are. Then I started wondering - puppy problems and stressed out new owners (like me) aside how many dogs that are trained by the average handler (and I mean on going training like obedience, agility etc not just level 1 & maybe 2 at the obedience club) end up as 'problem' dogs. Have you seen examples where experienced handlers have not been able to cope with a puppy as it grows into a dog. I don't mean taking a rescue dog with an unknown history or a dog that has had a traumatic experience like an attack, but a well bred run of the mill dog that is a real challenge even for the average dog club member - someone with a history in dogs and somewhat of a training background. I'd be interested in your thoughts. Nature or nurture?

I agree with what the others have all said - talk to some breeders about their lines and what they are bred for as well. Within the one breed you can find many different types and temperaments. eg - my boy would be fine around kids, he's gentle as a lamb and unless you turn him on will sleep the day away, once in drive though, that's another question entirely. My girl is a driven working lines nut that needs constant work and whilst she is great with kids and would never intentionally hurt them (she gives them kisses when they are crying, I'm sure she would have been a great mother if she was not desexed) I would never trust her in a household with them either. she's just as likely to nip the kid instead of the ball when they went to pick it up. My wife won't even play frisbee with her because she is so full on. Both dogs are of the same breed. Perhaps also have a look at this link as a starting point http://us.eukanuba.com/eukanuba/en_US/jsp/...e.jsp?pageID=BS I'm not suggesting this is the be all and end all, but it is something I came across while having a look aroudn the web one day. when I put in all my details it came up with my dogs (BC's) in the top 3 or 4 choices - the only thing that stopped them being number one is the size of my yard. (Not suggesting they are the right dog for you, just that the toy does have some merit. It is a starting point to perhaps suggest some breeds that you might like to research a bit further, it certainly isn't definitive. good luck finding your new puppy or dog.

Frisbee - Want to get Mr CK's first title. Want to convince Xena it is a good idea to catch the frisbee - I think it might have hurt her at some stage and she is hesitant to catch it. Agility - want to get CK up to trialling standard and get Xena's first title. Herding - want to get CK and Xena's starters titles and CK onto through the A course. Just want to convice Xena not to eat the sheep so that she can get her starters. Flyball (OK, not trialling, but we do it) - want CK to be up to racing standard and Xena to keep going the way she is for the nationals. I don't want much really - just a little more work to be done here and there! Good luck to everyone with their goals for the year. Cheers. Tony

Thanks everyone. Tash is going to get in touch with the Noosa guys.

WOO HOO!!!! Xena's first Trial was on the weekend. We only entered jumpers and agility. Got Eliminated for a wrong direction in jumpers (that tunnel just looked WAAAAAAAAY to good not to run through), but other than that it was an AWESOME run for her. Agility was first off and she did the run with two faults (weavers - her fault, decided to go and say hello to her new friend the judge (OK, I have to proof her more with people standing on the course) and dog walk - my fault - I ran through the end of it too quickly and she followed me instead of stopping/contacting). I just found out she came second in the starters agility. (went home early with a headache!) My only two goals on the night were that she hold her stay on the start line and I didn't end up chasing her round the course and that she didn't run off and explore the other side of the field. Both achieved and then more. I think I'm hooked!

Does anyone know of a flyball club on the sunshine coast in queensland. I have a friend who lives up there and wants to train her kelpie to play. Cheers. Tony

It has been - a week on and I'm much calmer about it all again. It's been an interesting week and has really made me take stock of the way I train, not to mention differentiated the two dogs even further. Xena is not a dominant dog, but is very exciteable and headstrong and will make her own (generally poor) decisions if allowed to. This week, at the suggestion of one of our trainers I have returned to physical correction similar to what she was first trained with, although on a flat collar, not a check chain. (not at agility and flyball, but walking and in our informal obedience practice). As a result she is more attentive and focussed on me at agility and flyball and her recall has been 100% without the harsh tone, even in the most exciting of environments. Around the house she is being more affectionate and staying with me more. While she wasn't a problem previously it seems to have made her easier to live with AND perform better in her work/sport. CK on the other hand is a pleasure to live with and to date has not questioned my leadership at all, although he can be manipulative in his own soft way. (can't say he hasn't challenged Xena's pack position - OUCH!!). He shuts down at the prospect of a physical correction, let alone receiving one - all positive for this boy, with only the softest of verbal corrections needed to curb unwanted behaviour. (After speaking to his dad's owner who lives on the other side of the country this week it seems this is inherent in him.) I think 'expectations or what you find acceptable' is the key to all of this. My expectations are sometimes too high of both myself as a very novice handler and my young dogs, but as a result I have two dogs I can take just about anywhere with no problems at all and who are very manageable in most situations. (eg - at flyball she doesn't pull and bark when the other dogs are going nuts, in fact I can stand there with here between my knees waiting calmly until I ask her if she wants to get her ball (on switch) and then the excitement kicks in - just have to proof that in other environments) When it comes unstuck like it did on Monday it really can dint the confidence I feed off. It just means more work for me and her in that environment. Thanks to all for you answers and thought.

The more I think about it the more I know you are right. Monday night did rattle me as I've never had that sort of problem before, although with the benefit of hindsight can see it has been coming. WRT her coming back, once I had her working properly again there is not problem with recall, it's only when the whole psycho drive thing kicks in we have a problem. I am going to work on recall from basics and then constantly proof it in progressively more stimulating environments.

Haven't used the triangle, but NILF is definitely a rule my two know about and live by. Might be time to look at the triangle - all helps.

Also have you actually taught her that a recall in a nice tone means that you don't necessarliy have to obey instantly but a harsher tone does? The same with calling her at the park. You say you have to call her twice, so oin her mind is the second harsher command the one she has to obey? Barking when you make a mistake in agility could be frustration or confusion but is hard to tell withoout seeing it. Herding is different to a lot of other disciplines as you are working with instinct. As Colin Webster puts it there are 2 types of dogs in herding, the gatherers and the killers (not literally) that follows on from the way a pack hunts in driving the prey to the waiting dogs or wolves to kill. This seems to be instinctive and nothing to do with dominance. My pup who is definitely bottom of the pack and quite a submissive dog is a killer. He had a bad dive in and grab when I first started him (and tried it regardless of who was working him). You gear you training to the type of dog you have and a good stop and out command work wonders. Dogs will also often try to grab or chase when you work them on their bad side as they find it harder and get frustrated. Thanks Janba - you are right, I have taught her that she has two opportunities, although just this morning we had a break through and she came back with the 'nice' call first time despite wanting to play more frisbee. Interesting to see you quote Colin Webster - we are going to his clinic in a week or so. I definitely have one killer (and one gatherer thank goodness), although by the sounds of it not to the same extent as you do as 90% of the time it is pretty easy to keep her off the sheep and/or get her to stop. Out is something we are yet to work on. Xena will grab/chase on either side at this stage if I'm not on top of her or if she gets excited - guess it's just going to be more work. I think Monday night just rattled me more than anything. She is usually so good I expect it to go well all the time and get disappointed/upset when it doesn't all go my way! lol. ETA - I think my leadership is about right the more I read and think about it - another example sprang to mind reading your post. when I pick up the dogs bowls they know it is time to be fed, but stay a 'respectful' distance away from me until I actually put the bowls down and tell them it is time to eat. I don't get hassled and they don't get all excited and silly.

Thanks Frieda, I think by most definitions I am the pack leader - they don't eat until they are allowed - I gave my boy a treat one morning, went inside, got a coffee back outside to find him standing staring at it because he had not been told to take it (poor little man!) . Sometimes before, sometimes after we eat, sometimes they don't eat - still no whinging. They do not jump on furniture unless invited and get off as soon as they are asked. They don't bark at the constant stream of people/dogs walking past the house - all the basics we have covered. If they are playing/fighting and I tell them to stop they do. It's the other high drive situations where I find it challenging and question whether I am always top of the tree and whether there is an issue there or if it is just to do with more proofing and training. Cheers. Tony