blackdog

Hi there Pesh - what an interesting question. I am assuming that this Lab is pure bred, pedigreed and registered so we won't consider any "cross-bred theories). It is difficult to picture exactly what you are describing without a photo. But black labs do vary in the "intensity" of their coat colour. They are of course all black coated but the "brightness" of the black differs. Quite often the shiny coated blacks carry a distinct lack of undercaot - a fault in the labrador Breed standard. The duller blue/black coats are most times the very best. Fantastic greyish (almost like lambswool) undercoat but can be a bit dull outwardly to look at. Black Labs are unique in a number of ways. For instance have you ever noticed that Black labs smell different to yellows when being hydrobathed.

So Pointeeblab - maybe you'd like to share with us your checklist of what constitues a worthy "newbie". It is not all one sided. What are the commitments that a newbie needs to make before an experienced breeder/exhibitor takes them on? Maybe start with honesty, trustworthiness, confidentiality?

I haven't seen anybody in this thread "crying foul" about things not going their way. You suggested that not enough people stay for the "long haul" and it's been explained why that is more than likely the case. Newbies ARE making a decision about what they actually want - and most want out of showing within a few months. If you're not not part of the solution then you're probably part of the problem. Help change the culture for newbies, learn how to effectively mentor people and more will probably stay. Sigh - I don't need to change the culture Pointeeblab. Every beginner that has ever asked for help or assistance has received it from me. I have never turned away a newbie - and don't you dare presume to tell me how to mentor somebody new. If you had taken up the offer a few years back then maybe we wouldn't be having this tit for tat. Once again you have succeeded in turning what was an interesting and worthwhile topic into a slanging match. Perhaps your decision to walk away from showing & breeding has been the right one after all. Exactly what I meant when I spoke about the "long haul" - wanting out after just a few months just doesn't cut it.

:D Mikelli & Mercedes - I agree with everything that you've contributed to this topic. You have both clearly demonstrated that what motivates one person may not necessarily be a motivation to another. In our case had we been content to simply rest on our laurels and bask in the glory of one famous lab that we owned/exhibitted we'd have been out of the dog world by 1995. But since that great dog held the breed record we have enjoyed owning and exhibitting his daughters, grandaughters and now great grand kids and a grand nephew. And all the time as part of a world class team under the guidance of a master "mentor". What is now a great satisfaction is that our mentor often asks my opinion about dogs / matings / puppies etc. And like you Mercedes we absolutely adore our dogs - they are a joy to own and they seem pretty happy and content in our company too. So often other exhibitors comment about the temperament/attitude of our labs in the ring - "Gee your dogs are so well trained" they say. But 'ya know what - apart from a bit of show lead and free standing/baiting training early on we don't actually train the dogs at all. Our labs really just enjoy what we ask them to do - they enjoy being out with us and visa versa. The two we are currently campaigning (litter bro and sis) both qualified for the Qld Dog of the Year final last night. Under the rules we can't compete (because of a position I hold on our State Controlling body) but that didn't matter. The number of fellow (non Lab) competitors who took the time to come and congratulate us on making the finals was very satisfying. And that is despite the fact that we have qualified a Lab every year since 1992 (or therabouts). So the dog world can be tremendously rewarding - and yes at times it can be just as depressing. It's how you approach the game that matters. If you go to a show not even expecting to win a class and you do - then that's a real hoot. If you go to a show expecting to win the Breed or the Group or Best in Show and you don't - well you're gunna be disappointed.

How do you expect new people in the breed to stay for the long haul, when things like you have just mentioned, happen? I doubt it is the best environment to be mentored in or to learn about your choosen breed, especially when all you see is bitching, slandering and the likes. It's little wonder why our sport is slowly declining. Gotta - I don't "expect" anything of newbies other than they make a decision about what they actually want. If they don't want to compete and win at the very highest level that's fine. If they don't want to grow a hide like a Rhino and weather the storm of ctiticism then that's fine too. But they shouldn't then contribute to these forums crying foul when things don't go there way. If there is any expectation that showing dogs is like a leisurely wander thru a rose garden - sorry - but it isn't. After 30 years I am well past entering every show every weekend and being content with just a breed "class" win. I've invested far too much time and effort and money in my chosen breed - because that's my choice and I've served my apprenticeship I think. It was a goal that I set myself (as a newbie) about 25+ years ago and to a very large extent I've succeeded. Oh - and here's another clue - we rarely sit with other Lab people at weekend shows. That way we tend to avoid all of the politics.

There's a problem and there's the reason. BINGO! Perhaps some newbies should write a book on how what elements are required for effective mentoring. I actually think it has little to do with the amount of experience a breeder has and more to do with having the right personality type. There is far too much infighting, backstabbing and poor sportsmanship going on. The true role of a mentor is not to give advice and then whinge when someone doesn't take it. It's about being involved without being attached and to give genuine support with no personal agenda. So I guess if people in the breed do want newbies to hang around there should be some responsibility taken for the environment which is created. Some hard work at genuine, ethical mentoring would go a very long way I suspect. Newbies don't leave because they aren't winning, they leave because they aren't enjoying themselves. MM I have seen you do it tough for a long time and I have great respect for your persistance. You've worked hard for your success. Maybe you should take up your own challenge Pointeeblab - write a book. I would be the first to buy it because I am always curious to learn what makes dog people tick. I guess the quality of the mentoring is in the eyes of the receiver. If newbies are continually "fooled" into taking and acting upon bad advice there is little else to be done. The minute somebody else steps in and tries to "lend a hand" or offer "an alternate point of view" - guess what happens. That breeder is slammed by the newbies mentor as being interfering, or worse - is slandered behind his back. So maybe the newbie needs to take some responsibility for filtering what is (or what isn't) good advice. And just regarding your suggestion that newbies are leaving because they aren't enjoying themselves? Like I said in my initial post - the long haul means exactly that - the long haul. Some have what it takes - others quite clearly don't.

AUTO - Received a call yesterday morning with "exactly" the same story. Push back from me was the same - with a few extras thrown in. Won't repeat verbatum what I said but the bottom line was this: "Why are you and other backyard breeders like you so hellbent on ruining our wonderful breed". Not surprisingly - she hung up!!!!!!!

As someone who just recently went through the process of selecting a new lab puppy I can say I have seen this happening in the advertisements here on DOL. Right now just looking at ads from NSW only, there is a bitch for sale on mains register who "can be transferred to the limited register on request for a greatly reduced price." There is also an ad for an upcoming litter which states that all puppies will be sold on the main register. :D They have not even been born yet! Yet another ad states "The pups are priced at $1000.00 Limited Registration as Pets. Main Registration is available upon negotiation to responsible parties." We can only hope the negotiation only applies to pups suitable for main registration but it doesn't necessarily read that way. Going back to what was said earlier about breeding for colour, there is also an ad for puppies in which the chocolate puppies are priced $200 higher than the yellow puppies. These are the ads that NSW lab puppy buyers are looking at right now! You have to wonder what this is going to do to the breed over time. Absolutely correct Macka - happens in every State and Territory right around Australia. Are these individual "breeders" breaking any Controlling Body rule - often times not. There are no rules which dictate that breeders must be open and honest in their dealings with puppy buyers. Similarly - there are no written rules that guard against inexperience, or misinterpretation or just plain downright stupidity. Nor are there any rules (or training programmes) which teaches the novice how to choose & assess the quality of individual puppies. All of that comes with skill and experience and an intimate understanding of bloodlines and the breed itself. Bring on an ANKC endorsed, Sate Controlled Breeder Accreditation scheme IMO. Picture a system that "appraises" the skill of individual breeders based on: - years of experience - customer feedback - level of visible hereditary defect testing - performance of dogs bred in chosen fields of endeavour. Picture a system that allocates a Bronze, Silver, Gold or Platnum status to individual breeders. Picture a system that requires that a beginner must receive endorsement from a Gold/Platnum breeder in a mentoring role. Only then will the current "minefield" confronting puppy buyers be able to be negotiated with some degree of confidence.

Very perceptive MM - I didn't notice the two point 2's. The issue I have with Main/Limited register is this. As you know Childbride and I always try to "run on" the best two/three babies from our litters for ourselves. That way we keep the best for our show team or to supply for "show puppy" orders. All of the other babies are placed on the Limited register - because in our opinion they are not show quality. It's not that they aren't high quality youngsters - just that they don't meet our high standards/hurdle rates. But a significant number of breeders are using Limited vs Main register as a financial negotiation tool. Example - this puppy will be $1,100 on Limited register, but if you want it on main rgeister it will cost $1,450. Now Limited registration means not suitable for showing or breeding . A puppy simply can't go from being unsuitable to suitable in the blink of an eye. Far too many unsuspecting puppy buyers purchase inferior quality puppies on main register in the mistaken belief that they are of show quality. And when they fail miseraby in the early Baby / Minor classes these people disappear never to be seen again. Or - as you suggest MM - they reappear two years later in the litter registration listings. And sometimes even the most experienced of us can and do make mistakes. I had a recent experience with some newbie clients - all they wanted was a Black, Male PET quality puppy. I had one available and away they went - nice puppy but a bit too overdone for a show puppy IMO. At 12 months of age these people expressed a desire to show the dog. As I'd predicted the dog was too strong in head, quite a dominant temperament and not enough backend. I tried to discourage them on at least 3 different occassions but they wouldn't let up and eventually I gave in. I signed the document to transfer the dog from Limited to Main register and guess what happened. The dog has been belted every time it has been entered in an Open show (and deservedly so too). Now I'm the one copping the "criticism" for selling these people a dog that's not of "show quality". If these clients had been "up front" with me in the first place I would have ensured they received a "show quality" puppy. So should I have refused to transfer the dog from Limited onto Main Register? Should I have simply ignored their requests entirely and stood my ground? Or did I do the right thing by allowing these people to experience first hand just how hard it is to exhibit a mediocre quality Lab? Had I not relented the CCCQ would have missed out on yet another membership, as would the LRCQ. And just maybe these people will get the message, book a show quality youngster in the future and become dedicated long term Lab enthusiasts. I'd be interested to hear other opinions please - I've beaten myself up enough about this particular incident. And just in closing MM - I understand how difficult it must seem at times trying to get reliable advice. But there is nothing more frustrating when one's advice is eagerly sought after and it is provided openly and honestly. And in the very next breath the newbie goes and does the complete bloody opposite - and guess what? When things do go wrong who do they turn to for a shoulder to cry on? The original breeder they sought advice from in the first place - sigh. Mentoring implies a two-way street in my mind. It suggests to me that a new exhibitor/breeder will commit to supporting an experienced breeder in such a way soas to serve an "apprenticeship". By that I mean - to help and assist with handling the dogs and "learning the ropes" until a suitable show puppy becomes available. And it also suggests that the breeder will take a chance on a "newbie" in the hope that they eventually develop the necessary smarts. Far too many are in it for a quick fix IMO. And there are also significant numbers of what I describe as "back door bandits" - these are people who won't front up and place an order for a top quality puppy directly - they lurk in the shadows and "aquire" dogs and bitches from particular bloodlines through the "backdoor". They won't wait, don't want to "waste time" learning - they've got to have something RIGHT NOW. And in so doing they again end up with something which is mediocre at best and then they wonder why they never make any headway. Anyway - I've had enough of a vent - time to sit back now and wait for the fallout.

Oh alright then MM - here goes: Before I reveal my "three things" confronting our breed can I just make the point that we as professional breeders need to tidy up our "backyard first" - how - by implementing the following: 1. A nationally endorsed (and breeder supported) ANKC Breeder Accreditation programme. (benefits for all ped reg dogs not just Labs). 2. Lab National Breed Council endorsement of "recommended" upper level hip & elbow scores + compulsory DNA eye testing. 3. A requirement that stock from an accreditted breeder must "make it's mark" in one of the many recognised canine disciplines. And the three big issues (4 actually) confronting Labs at present IMHO: 1. Overpopularity (chocolates in particular). 2. 75% of all ANKC Lab breeders are not visible - nobody knows their prefix, sees their dogs - they simply breed for the pet market. 2. Abuse of the Limited register/Main register - Pet Quality/Show Quality "hoax" being unleashed on the unsuspecting puppy buyer. 3. Lack of "new" dedicated breed enthusiasts coming into the breed and staying for the long haul.

Poor MM - what's the matter. Maybe you need a coffee :D and a good lie down ;)

Excellent question Poodlefan. I personally I believe there needs to be some sort of ANKC endorsed state implemented Breeder Accreditation program. But at present there is nothing to guide the unsuspecting puppy buyer. Maybe you can assist - if you were a family wanting a lab puppy how would you go about aquiring one?

Hi Poodlefan - true fox red is a very uncommon coat colour. There are plenty of Labs around that carry a dark yellow coat but true fox red is almost non existent. Below is an interesting link. http://www.littleriverlabs.com/foxred2.htm

yep, the breeder knows all about the problem. what she does with the info..... ???? She is still showing the full brother and sister (winning too) - future breeding stock i'd say. I think a system needs to be in place to follow the family tree of all dogs affected. Apparantly only 150 chosen vet practices compile the stats in australia. Er - hang on a minute - this discussion is getting a bit bogged down. What the breeder chooses to "do" to satisfy Wantasounddog is actually up to the breeder. As I suggested in an earlier post Wantasounddog needs to state his case and then agree a course of action with the breeder. Whether or not the breeder is exhibitting litter mates and whether or not they are winning is the breeders business. So too does the decision whether or not those siblings are ultimately included in a future breeding programme. Wantasounddog - you suggest that "the breeder knows all about the problem - what she does with the info????". Well nobody can answer that question other than you and the breeder. I'll ask again - what have you actually asked the breeder to do to resolve the issues you are experiencing with your young dog? If you've not asked for anything then you can't expect a resolution can you?

Hi there Wantasounddog - very sorry to hear about the problems you are experiencing. Could I ask a few questions just to clarify the situation please. 1. did you purchase your puppy from a registered breeder? 2. did the breeder show you the hip & elbow score results for both parents (these tests are mandatory)? 3. Do you remember what the parents elbow scores were? 4. Have you contacted the breeder to discuss your problems? 5. has the puppy had elbow (and hip) xrays to confirm diagnosis? And finally - I don't quite understand your last question - but could problems occur within 4 weeks? If you are asking whether signs of elbow dysplasia can manifest within a 4 week period the answer is quite definately yes. Initially it will show up as slight lameness during or after exercise. Within a short period this could develop into complete immobility as a result of small bone particles becoming wedged in the elbow joint.

It's been a while since I visitted this Labrador thread. So here's a subject to get some meaningful exchange happening. If you were asked to nominate the three most important things confronting our breed what would they be? Most would realise that hips, elbows and eyes are the "big three" genetic issues but what else? I would appreciate your thoughts.

And what legislation are the ubquitous 'theys' putting forth and in which state? The "theys" are most likely to be the Welfare groups in consultation with geneticists like McGreevy Sydney Uni. The Royal Veterinary College London report entitled "A PRELIMINARY INVESTIGATION INTO INHERITED DEFECTS IN PEDIGREE DOGS Lisa M. Collins, Lucy Asher, Gillian Diesel & Jennifer F. Summers - January 2009" is available via email from Jemima Harrison. The report is not finalised (and not peer group reviewed) but is already circulating amongst RSPCA and AWL. So proposed legislation may take the form a super sized version of what has recently been introduced in NSW or the new Hereditary Defect Breeding Legislation in Vic. Any organisation or individual can propose new legislation (initially in the form of a discussion paper) as long as it is submitted and supported by a State Govt sitting member. Such was the case with the proposed Mandatory Desexing Legislation in Qld in 2007/08. Far be it for me to suggest that there are "reds under our beds" but has anybody else wondered why Ms Harrison started the IN THE NEWS topic entitled "Victoria legislation - opinions" ?? Apologies to Jemmima if I'm sounding a bit suspicious but why would a UK based documentary producer be even remotely interested in what is happening in the state of Victoria? I have become very distrusting of all media - and that goes for BBC, ABC and commercial TV journos.

And what legislation are the ubquitous 'theys' putting forth and in which state? The "theys" are most likely to be the Welfare groups in consultation with geneticists like McGreevy Sydney Uni. The Royal Veterinary College London report entitled "A PRELIMINARY INVESTIGATION INTO INHERITED DEFECTS IN PEDIGREE DOGS Lisa M. Collins, Lucy Asher, Gillian Diesel & Jennifer F. Summers - January 2009" is available via email from Jemima Harrison. The report is not finalised (and not peer group reviewed) but is already circulating amongst RSPCA and AWL. So proposed legislation may take the form a super sized version of what has recently been introduced in NSW or the new Hereditary Defect Breeding Legislation in Vic. Any organisation or individual can propose new legislation (initially in the form of a discussion paper) as long as it is submitted and supported by a State Govt sitting member. Such was the case with the proposed Mandatory Desexing Legislation in Qld in 2007/08.

10 years. That's it, breed them until they can breed no more, then shoot them Poor, poor old girl. Such a lovely soft breed too. They deserve better, don't they? Blind. Chances are the dog is affected by PRA. It may have ulcerated both eyes by running into a stick, but my bet is on PRA. So, some of the pups will be affected too, and go blind. These pups should have a DNA test prior to rehoming, so someone isn't landed with a dog programmed to go blind. *sigh* And we are arguing about the damage registered breeders do to purebred dogs? I do think someone should take notice of this. Puppy farm unregistered dogs, none tested for anything, and the producer uncaring whether they have any diseases or not. But, they are purebred, so the registered breeders get the blame, even though these dogs are probably 2nd or 3rd generation puppy farm bred. Fact is, there are too many homeless cats anyhow, so if they are desexed at 6 weeks, and a percentage dies, that would probably be better than going on to breed. If they are dead at 6 weeks, they can't breed. Absolutely right Jed - and here's the kicker. The whole premise of the UK doco Pedigree Dogs Exposed was that breeders of pure breds were exacerbating hereditary defect problems. But as I have stated may times on various threads there is a real difference between UK breeders and Australian registered breeders. UK breeders do not need to be members of the Kennel Club - there are exactly like what we would describe as BYB here. In Aust a registered breeder must be a member of a State Controlling body and hence is obligated to be bound by rules & code of ethics. In the UK all a breeder needs to have is two pedigree registered dogs of the same breed and any subsequent puppies will be registered by the kennel Club UK. The owner of the Wondai complex could operate quite legitimately in the UK. They could breed from untested dogs and bitches (because they are not bound by any general or breed specific rules) and have any subsequent litters registered and pedigrees issued by the Kennel Club UK. It is not acceptable to film a doco in one country and then apply the same presumptions to other countries. It is highly likely that in the UK the breeder/s of the Boxer taking a fit or the Cavalier with a brain disorder were exactly the same as the breeder operating from the Wondai puppy farm complex.

Kirty - Absolutely agree with your argument in favour of EAD of kittens. The RSPCA Qld & AWL have both acknowledged in stakeholder meetings that: "If they could solve the cat overpopulation problem in Qld the whole issue of euthanasia rates would disappear". EAD is not an appropraite strategy for use with puppies. It is appropriate with kittens. Oh and JBTW - the vast majority of surrendered dogs are cross bred working / hunting types. The following link takes you to the RSPCA Qld annual report for 07/08. Page 16 has a summary of shelter operations - it clearly demonstrates that the big issue is cats - not dogs. http://www.rspcaqld.org.au/aboutus/RSPCA-Q...t-2007-2008.pdf

Maybe the bathroom or under your bed How many of these dogs are still in urgent need of help? Is there any Labs that are ball crazy? We could try them with the Army for bomb dogs? I have contacts here at the training school in Moorebank. Just a suggestion, and if they don't work out, they do get sacked, but they find them homes. Thanks Nickojoy - every avenue will be explored eventually I'm sure. But the whole situation regarding these dogs is very tricky. Some are still undergoing assessment, others are delivering puppies as we speak. This mornings Courier Mail reported that a blind 10yo cocker was about to have a litter. Remember too that the raid on the Wondai was carried out by Biosecurity Qld. RSPCA are assisting with temporary accomodation - either "in shelter" or with "approved foster carers". But until this case goes to court and a ruling made the dogs (and puppies) still remain the property of the owner / puppy farmer.

There is lots of information against it, and a lot of it involves difference in growth etc between early desexed or not. If you google Dr. Harry Corbett, a vet in Vic, you will find he has a lot of practical things to say about it. My own vet, who has a masters degree in small animal surgery and medicine says the risks were greatly increased and will not do it. It has been carefully explained to me, and I have chosen not to do it. And those risks are exactly why CCCQ and it's members fought so hard to overturn the Mandatory Desexing legislation that was proposed in Qld in 2008. For the first time (in a long time) Qld members of CCCQ banded together and fought against what was an ill conceived and draconian proposal. And to their credit the Qld Govt commissioned two reports from leading Uni Vet experts and they both advised against the introduction of EAD. Additionally reviews of where this type of law had been introduced (parts of USA & Europe) showed absolutely no difference in the number of dogs (and cats) being surrendered to pounds and shelters.

Sorry, but what's the point of this? Are we back to only breeders are allowed to comment even though this is a rescue topic? And are we now deliniating which breeders can comment based on how many litters they've had? You are absolutely right Sheridan - it was a rescue topic until others tried to turn it into some sort of guilt trip. All I did was post info to all responsible Labrador owners advising that the LRCQ was working with RSPCA to find suitable foster carers. Anybody able to assist could contact the Club via the details provided. And from that came a diatribe about breeder responsibilty, early age desexing, whether adults advertised on DOL should be desexed or not -blah, blah, blah. So when shots are being fired at responsible, long standing breeders I reserve the right to go on the defensive thanks. Especially when those shots are being fired by a "newbie" with the experience of only one litter. Would you prefer we all check with you first in future before posting?

Wonder if your vet agree with the "chopping" terminology? The desexing is generally done at 8 weeks rather than 6. Whenever you sell an entire pup you have to consider that it may end up in a puppy farm, regardless of how well vetted the puppy buyers are. Great that you're helping out with a litter and mother. :D Rescuing a dog isn't always convenient but I do believe it is the shared responsibility of all breeders. Dear Pointeeblab - Actually most vets won't go near EAD (early age desexing) of puppies. It is not supported by AVA nor was it found to be justified in a report commissioned by Qld Govt by Dr Linda Marston (Monash Uni). It is a valuable "shelter management tool" where litters of unowned puppies are surrended. But for me to have a baby Lab desexed (and still ready to go to new families at 8 weeks of age) desexing would need to be done at 6 weeks. That allows for sufficient recovery time post op, wound treatment etc. So yes - chopping is a really accurate term - removing the entire reproductive system of a baby bitch is MAJOR Surgery. Oh and just BTW - if that baby puppy dies whilst on the table who's to blame? Will the do-gooder, tree huggers come and wrap an arm around my shoulder and comfort me in my time of loss. No way in the bloody world. And just in closing - my responsibility is to my dogs and my clients - something that I have done very successfully for 30 years. It is NOT my responsibility to rescue dogs at all - but in cases like the Wondai seizure I am more than willing to help. Which is exactly why LRCQ Inc runs a Rescue & Rehome Service. "Here endeth the first reading". Every vet who is being trained at university is now being trained in paediatric desexing. So vets that do it in the future will be in the majority rather than the minority. My pups were desexed by a vet that I suspect you have used in the past. They were well experienced in the practice and the puppies recovery was amazingly fast. My understanding is that pups need to be close to 8 weeks before they are desexed. They were fine to go to new homes within 5 days. The wounds were tiny and the two sutures were taken out a few days after going home. Losing pups/dogs is part of the business. Nobody comes and wraps an arm around your shoulder when you lose a dog during the GA given for hip and elbow desexing or a caesar for a pregnant bitch, yet those are procedures that are done routinely. It could happen to the pup at 8 weeks or it could happen to the pup when it's (hopefully) desexed at 12 months. It goes with the territory. I believe that breeders have a responsibility to the dogs, their clients and the BREED as a whole. I don't buy that one breeder should take on the title of breed rescue and every breeder in the state expects them to cope with it all. There are far more labradors in shelters/requiring homes than one kennel can cope with. I have personally rescued, desexed and rehomed more dogs than I've ever bred. There are a lot of labradors requiring homes that never make it to the specific breed rescue. Everybody needs to do their bit. Maybe Pointeeblab you and I need to have a more private conversation about your feelings regarding EAD, breeding responsibilities in general and more particularly ones commitment to ones chosen breed. You seem to know an awful lot about me (even about the type of property I own and how many dogs I can manage) and yet I am only guessing who you may be. I don't understand at all your comment about one breeder taking on the title of "breed rescue" at all - the LRCQ has an R&R service and two very committed members run that service on behalf of the Club. They have the time, the focus and the contacts to do it and do it well. And Club members are willing to assist "where they can". You obviously are ware of my credentials in the breed - I would be more than happy to learn more about yours. Please email me privately at your convenience. Dear Pointeeblab - still nothing privately received from you. But never mind - now I know who you are. We may all be better served if you actually completed your "apprenticeship" first. Next time you decide to share your significant depth of knowledge remember that one litter does not a breeder make. Please give my regards to Poppy and Dash.

Wonder if your vet agree with the "chopping" terminology? The desexing is generally done at 8 weeks rather than 6. Whenever you sell an entire pup you have to consider that it may end up in a puppy farm, regardless of how well vetted the puppy buyers are. Great that you're helping out with a litter and mother. Rescuing a dog isn't always convenient but I do believe it is the shared responsibility of all breeders. Dear Pointeeblab - Actually most vets won't go near EAD (early age desexing) of puppies. It is not supported by AVA nor was it found to be justified in a report commissioned by Qld Govt by Dr Linda Marston (Monash Uni). It is a valuable "shelter management tool" where litters of unowned puppies are surrended. But for me to have a baby Lab desexed (and still ready to go to new families at 8 weeks of age) desexing would need to be done at 6 weeks. That allows for sufficient recovery time post op, wound treatment etc. So yes - chopping is a really accurate term - removing the entire reproductive system of a baby bitch is MAJOR Surgery. Oh and just BTW - if that baby puppy dies whilst on the table who's to blame? Will the do-gooder, tree huggers come and wrap an arm around my shoulder and comfort me in my time of loss. No way in the bloody world. And just in closing - my responsibility is to my dogs and my clients - something that I have done very successfully for 30 years. It is NOT my responsibility to rescue dogs at all - but in cases like the Wondai seizure I am more than willing to help. Which is exactly why LRCQ Inc runs a Rescue & Rehome Service. "Here endeth the first reading". Every vet who is being trained at university is now being trained in paediatric desexing. So vets that do it in the future will be in the majority rather than the minority. My pups were desexed by a vet that I suspect you have used in the past. They were well experienced in the practice and the puppies recovery was amazingly fast. My understanding is that pups need to be close to 8 weeks before they are desexed. They were fine to go to new homes within 5 days. The wounds were tiny and the two sutures were taken out a few days after going home. Losing pups/dogs is part of the business. Nobody comes and wraps an arm around your shoulder when you lose a dog during the GA given for hip and elbow desexing or a caesar for a pregnant bitch, yet those are procedures that are done routinely. It could happen to the pup at 8 weeks or it could happen to the pup when it's (hopefully) desexed at 12 months. It goes with the territory. I believe that breeders have a responsibility to the dogs, their clients and the BREED as a whole. I don't buy that one breeder should take on the title of breed rescue and every breeder in the state expects them to cope with it all. There are far more labradors in shelters/requiring homes than one kennel can cope with. I have personally rescued, desexed and rehomed more dogs than I've ever bred. There are a lot of labradors requiring homes that never make it to the specific breed rescue. Everybody needs to do their bit. Maybe Pointeeblab you and I need to have a more private conversation about your feelings regarding EAD, breeding responsibilities in general and more particularly ones commitment to ones chosen breed. You seem to know an awful lot about me (even about the type of property I own and how many dogs I can manage) and yet I am only guessing who you may be. I don't understand at all your comment about one breeder taking on the title of "breed rescue" at all - the LRCQ has an R&R service and two very committed members run that service on behalf of the Club. They have the time, the focus and the contacts to do it and do it well. And Club members are willing to assist "where they can". You obviously are ware of my credentials in the breed - I would be more than happy to learn more about yours. Please email me privately at your convenience.