Monah

I just can't even imagine how awful this would be. Devastating. Can't stop crying. I'm so sorry, also for all the other animals who have been lost

There is absolutely no comparison to prey drive in a Sibe and prey drive in a Gundog.

A Gundog will not kill everything it catches, in fact a Gundog has a soft mouth, I've watched one of my Pointers catch a butterfly in it's mouth on a porch, trot up the yard to release it and play again.

My Pointers live very happily with a Green Tree Frog that lives within their kennel run, each night they greet him (Kermit ) with a sniff and a slight nudge, Kermit doesn't even budge

In my wildest dreams I can not see that happening, multiple Sibes co-existing with a frog?? :shakehead:

My spin has carried a pidgeon around in her mouth for 10 minutes, and then when I told her to 'give', she gave it to me and it flew away not a mark on it (I checked it over!!). The viz will do the nose nudge to check things out ;) but has also never even hurt a tree frog either.

So sorry about your friend.

Just wanted to say, he is a stunning pup, hope you all settle in together very well.

What a lovely thing to do

I'm after soft crates too. My viz and spin have large metal ones, but moving (driving) to Darwin I really need something more travel friendly, but need very sturdy, last forever ones. Great info. How do you know which ones have the best frames?? Is it based on cost?

I meant they both have the "You don't know how hard it is to live with one till you've lived with one" bit :p

You're all bias :p

Nooooooo!!! Biased???

I love living with gundogs, they are so joyous about everything. My ACD was VERY serious too (like the kelpie mentioned) and I also loved that, so dependable and grown up, but, I do adore the pure fun of a gundog. My spinone is the best retriever ever and will not deviate from her course of action and brings the item to my hand every time and my viz is a fantastic flyballer, extremely reliable (treats ). Both are highly trainable and easy to live with, although friends may have something to say about the easy to live with bit :D

I don't link trainability with intelligence either, both my wolfhounds and lakelands were dificult to train (although I didn't know it until I got my viz who is soooooo easy), but they were very very intelligent dogs, just not biddable.

They are very intelligent (yes Pax, labs are gundogs) and all stunning to look at ;) :p

What were you saying about sibes????? :D

I feel your pain too. I think it is very difficult to discipline pups where kids are involved, they all hype each other up.

I have a couple of gundogs and can only relate to you how we have coped with the mouthing.

The spinone was never a mouther but needs to have a toy in her mouth at all times to be content

The viz was a BIG mouther and we stopped it when she was about 4 months old, simply by being very consitent (and vigilant ALL the time, can't get away with it even once) at all times. They hopefully soon learn that mouthing is a no no. It appears your dog may have certain time that he is naughty? So did ours, so first thing in the morning, silly dog time!!! I would take her out and play play play and get the sillies over with (she was rather young at this stage). She was not receptive at all to preventative stuff while she was in a hyper mood, and of course, after a long nights sleep, she was very active.

In this manner she never actually got in the habit of biting and mouthing but will grab a hand and walk along with you SO, we then just said TOY every time she looked like mouthing and voila!!! her habit became grabbing a toy to greet everyone, even the cats I'm not a trainer by any stretch, but for me the important part is that the dog does not get into a bad habit, so whatever it takes, distraction, wear them out, train train train.

I wish you all the best, It's very hard work!!!

My cattle dog was a ''vertical' swimmer too!! None of our dogs are allowed near the pool (fenced of course!!) without supervision even though they are excellent swimmers. Our old cattle dog however fell in a couple of times (hated water) while we were swimming with the other dogs, and she sank like a stone! Had to be rescued both times. Yes scary, but you just watch them all the time and usually if they dont llike to swim they will avoid the water at all costs (beach, lakes etc), otherwise, yes, life jacket

I can only go on my own experiences. I have had 2 goldies, brothers, and my spin and viz. All have been extremely easy to train and fast on the pick up of training, especially the viz. The spin can be a bit stubborn :rolleyes: at times. As far as prey drive, they definately do have it, but all my dogs have lived with many cats at once, and birds. My spin has even had a pidgeon in her mouth for over 5 mins and I didn't know as her mouth is huge and hairy. Well, when I noticed and removed it, it only had slime on it so I wiped it and it flew off!! She is incredibly gentle and has a soft mouth. As far as I know, most gundogs do have very soft mouths. All of mine have loved to retrieve and always bring the item back.

I absolutely adore the vibrance, love of life, exuberance and yes, even the immaturity of gundogs, but as with any breed, if you allown them to be too silly, you will end up with a silly dog. They do need to learn selfcontrol. I still have a couple of issues with over excitement with my viz, but after playing with some younger vizs a week ago, I realise she has grown up a huge amount and is well on the way to being a 'big' girl.

I'm certainly no trainer, but they are incredibly responsive, love to please and work, and just generally plaster a big smile on your face for the whole day!! Everything in their life is a joy to behold and everything is done with a huge amount of interest and curiosity.

I wouldn't have them any other way.

FHRP, I may have to borrow some of those self control lessons from you

Nekhbet, ;)

Fascinating subject, I have NO idea on any 'answers' at all. I do agree with the dog protecting itself, I also think there is some sort of territorial guarding occurring in certain cases. I only have my own experiences to go on of course and have never had a 'guarding' breed to observe.

We have had cattle dogs though, and unless I have said OK, they have been very very strong boundary guarders. No one could get near the garden, house, ute, etc. However, when we have been walking they were fine with all dogs, people etc. EXCEPT when walked by the kids (when they were about 12 onwards as they weren't allowed to walk them before that) NO ONE could get near the kids at all. I guess that means they saw themselves as leaders when with the kids?? There were never any incidents, but people took one look and crossed the road.

We have also had them 'protect' other peoples children when out.

My viz will bark madly when dogs or people are around the garden, but watching her reactions etc. it appears to be over excitement and lack of self control (which I AM trying to cure and am getting somewhere thank goodness). Although she is a fearful dog too, so also would be protecting herself I guess. As soon as one of us investigates, she is fine. She looks to me for protection when we are out (goes behind me usually) and my spin is totally reliant on me for protection.

I'd love to trial an Italian Spinone in Retrieving or/and Field trials.

Well, what's stopping you? Go and get another one

I've never trialled anything in my life, but certainly know lots of people who do. Owing to business and child commitments, I've just never had the time, money etc. to do it, or been able to travel away from home for a night etc., OH has mostly worked away a lot.

But, I would love to do tracking, field, retrieving etc. with my spinone, she is a fantastic retriever with an extremely soft mouth and drops the item retrieved into your hand EVERY time, never plays up etc. so reliable, she's wasted on me really. And she'll go anywhere, through any landscape, water etc to retrieve without even thinking. Nothing puts her off.

For agility I'd love to use my viz, she's great, but if I make a mistake, she really lets me know :rolleyes: and I do make a few! I have a dyslexic problem with left and right, which was great fun for my driving instructor years ago

Sorry I'm a useless puppy chooser myself, but K9 force, who has GSDs did mention at a seminar that one of the things he likes to do (if allowed) is to put the puppy in an unfamiliar situation, away from siblings, and see how confident and happy it is away from the familiar, or if it gets distressed and frets. I think 5 weeks may be a bit young to try that though. Hopefully a gsd breeder or other breeder can point you in the right direction on how to choose for your needs.

Sounds wonderful :rolleyes:

Oh how awful!! Yes, can't blame the farmer, he's been very good. I've had sheep, I would have probably done the same as him. What a shame :p

Hope he finds a lovely home. My dog loves flyball too. Just wondering though, how on earth is he getting out to chase sheep? :p

Do you have any troubles with them pooing in the house?? (are they maltese?)

One is pure Maltese and one is MalteseXShihtzu (very Maltese though)

and... We most certainly do!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know when one is about to do it, because he runs around sniffing (literally running) So I pop him outside, he scratched to get back in and two minutes later there is a stinky poo on the carpet!!!!!!

I have to admit, they are getting a bit better (the weeing isn't) But they are learning that poos are good outside, not inside.

I'm just at whits end with the weeing, everything 30 minutes is getting the better of me!

Do you have the same problems??

P.s 10 days is way too long! Their wounds are looking great, and today the OH updated me, they were outside all day, and they were fine and tired out! (finally) Just walked in with brown socks on from the partially wet day

Ok, I think you may need to look on one of the toilet training threads. firstly, as the others have said, please NEVER give the pups a chance at all of getting on the road Secondly, when training (and even forever for me!) you GO OUT WITH THE DOG , PRAISE FOR GOING TO THE TOILET, MAKE SURE IT GOES, THEN GO INSIDE. Never surmise that because the pup wants to be inside with you and the rest of the family, that it has 'been'. Even with older dogs, they may wait for you, and if you are inside, they may ask to come in, and haven't been to the toilet. I always check simply because I MUST know they have been if I'm off to work or bed, I don't want to be up at 3am because someone needs a wee. Little dogs will also go very often, while they are pups, I've had maltese. Their bladders are little. Maybe you could take their water up for a couple of hours or more. My dogs have never had water overnight from a very young age. Other than that, yes, puppies will go often. Are they actually going every single time they go out? Boys will also go whether they need to or not, sometimes just a few drops, to mark a spot. And I too have never heard of keeping a dog in fter desexing, just quiet. :p Hope it all works out for you :p

tigerlily73, Mojo wouldn't do that He's an angel. I adore him. I think you must have your facts wrong

I don't want to frighten you( :p ;) ) but my neighbours 2 cockers ATE her laundry, walls, doors , screen, skirting boards etc. and they were only in there for bed, the rest of the time with the 4 kids or her all day!!! so not bored.

Surely that's a 'puppy thing' not exclusive to the little cockers

Probably but after over 40 years of dogs, all different breeds, I have NEVER ever come accross this level of destruction, EVER

Oh dear! Luke has some great ideas

My spin has been through a lot of our furniture etc, but at 18 months has settled down a bit, now concentrates on loo rolls if anyone is silly enough to leave one on the holder :p

I don't want to frighten you( ) but my neighbours 2 cockers ATE her laundry, walls, doors , screen, skirting boards etc. and they were only in there for bed, the rest of the time with the 4 kids or her all day!!! so not bored. Then, when I babysat them for 2 weeks last christmas, they ate my vinyl flooring and several less important parts of the house, not bored here either!! with 3 other dogs 4 cats and humans around ALL the time. They ate the floor when we went to a movie and I put them in a room together, an EMPTY room so they could not destroy anything, well, they did ;)

All I have to say is, GOOD LUCK

Yes, get help. I too have a fearful dog and she is doing very well compared when she was your dog's age, but will never be the laid back confident dog that my others are. Please get help. All I could say for now is don't force anything and just tell visitors to completely ignore her. she may some out to see people on her own, they must still ignore her. With dogs , I'd not take her off lead, or even have her with other dogs ATM at all. If she gets too frightened now, it wil be worse for her later. Let her go at her own pace, don't 'baby' her, show her you are confident. you may find bits of info on any of K9s topics, he did a fantastic workshop on this kind of thing a week ago. Good luck. It is a difficult road ahead. xxxx

I would not have her in your arms or even get your friends to pat her. Of course, I'm certainly not qualified to tell you anything, sorry, and should not give you advice really as I don't know your dog, I'm just going on my own experiences with my fearful dog. Please do get prof. help xxx

On a happy note... I'm slowly getting thru this thread and while it's probably way to late to even attempt neutralising either of my dogs (7 and 1.5) I find the topic very interesting. I'm hoping I can still get some of the focus out of the dogs to look to me (and hopefully the OH) as the pack leaders and to have a bigger trust in them when we start taking them camping with us.

I start drive training with my girl in a week or so.... how's that program going K9 Force .... and I'm pretty lucky with her that she's come pre-programmed not to be overly interested in dogs or people. Strange dogs probably rate about -3 to -4 for her, but she doesn't notice them once I have a toy in my hand.

My first question is around the seperation... I completely understand why K9 Force keeps his new puppies away from the other dogs... but for those of us that aren't willing or able to do this, does it impact too much... especially if you only have 1 or 2 other dogs?

Our aim is to purchase a farm within the next 5yrs and we'd like to run cattle, which in turn means we want a working dog, so I'm interested in understanding the level of neutralisation that would be recommended in this situation... as I've never owned a working breed before... let alone one that actually works.

Wow that's great.! You mean, the frenchies wont be herding?

I adore working dogs. cattle dogs are my favourite There are several breeders who breed 'working' lines. These are quite different than the show lines (although both are fantastic!!). A relative of mine has an incredible working line cattle dog, just in case you are interested in cattle dogs, just keep in mind the working lines, I'm positive this is the same in BCs and Kelpies too

I too agree K9 enjoys his dogs greatly, he spends masses of time training them too (obviously) and he is all important to them. The rest of us mere mortals can only marvel at his achievements and dedication. Of course it is difficult to put into practice some of the methods as we live in varying situations with businesses , families and also our dogs. But, if I can only help my dog in two or three instances, I will be over the moon. K9 is about helping us as owners, help our dogs. Training the humans in order for the dogs themselves to have a life that 'makes' sense' to the dog, which in turn helps us, and society in general. It's not about being controlling and not enjoying your dogs. In fact, it's really the opposite, getting even MORE enjoyment and fun out of and with your dogs :D

Fantastic news. Wow. well done

Erny, thanks for a very helpful post. I should mention, I was also very lucky with Monah that I found a wonderful behaviourist when she was about 18 months old who gave me a great program, the difference was that she said to try one child at a time to help Monah with her kid phobia, and previously I had been told to take her to soccer games etc. with loads of kids around, she FREAKED, so i made it worse. If only I had met the behaviourist at 12 weeks! But, Like I said, she is a lovely dog and we adore her, and we can do anything with her at all.

E: I'm glad you mentioned this MonElite. I'm often concerned that people hearing of (3rd hand, for example) or even reading of "neutralisation" but not fully understanding it, will take it to extremes.

K9: This is true, it is one of the reasons that it can become difficult to offer any advice on any forum for fear of people getting it wrong.

There are many forums that as soon as a problem is presented, it is pasted as the standard answer "go see a behaviourist".

I am glad were not there yet.

K9 - my post was not intended as a criticism of the 'neutralisation' program and I hope you didn't take it that way. What prompted my post was a previous poster mentioning that she'd had dogs before in a country atmosphere with little socialisation and no problems, yet she's now socialised her current dog and has problems. I was concerned that her (and anyone reading) perception was now to not go out and socialise the dogs at all.

Whilst I agree that I have visited forums where "go see a behaviourist" is given more commonly than not, I put my hand up to say that I am not innocent of having done the same. And there are many occasions when "go see a behaviourist" IS the best advice that can be given over the net.

Ah Erny, sorry, that might have been my post. I may have worded it wrong. What I was trying to put across was that we didn't 'actively' socialise, we had businesses at home so people were around pretty often, we had cats, chooks, sheep too, a lot of machinery, our kids and other kids. The dogs were just 'there' , part of the furniture and generally didn't take much notice of others. However, we did not purposefully 'take the dogs out' to experience different things, people , other dogs running off lead etc. It just seems that now, there is a lot of stuff written about taking your dog out and 'socialising' and playing and meeting and greeting etc. I have a 'nervy' dog who was that way at 12 weeks when we got her, and was told by several training places etc. to 'take her out and more or less MAKE her get over it', inc. her being pushed onto agility equipment so I stopped going for a long time until I had her comfortable at home. I think all this made her worse not better.

In the past with our other dogs, ranging from wolfhounds to terriers and everything in between, they just got used to everything quietly without a fuss or excitement, in a 'home' environment. when we did go to the city,(often as we had a house and business there) they were not ever put out and just adapted from one thing to the next.

IMO sometimes socialisation is put up as a cure all and most of us are not aware of the dangers to the dog, then it is frustrating when the dog gets even more jittery instead of improving, and you don't know what to do next. I'm sure I could have managed my dogs nerves much better than I did, but am very inexperienced with this problem. she has come a very long way though as she couldn't even walk on lead if anything (inc cars) or anyone was behind us. But it has taken nearly 3 years of trying things to get to this stage.

BTW, she is very lovely I do feel guilty for pushing her through which was obviously her fear stage. Poor dog.

This is so interesting. This thread has caused me to realise that over the years, with many different breeds, sexes and sizes of dogs, many many dogs, I've never had any issues or problems at all. EXCEPT recently (last 3 or 4 years) with all the pro socialising stuff out there. Very annoying as I have been using these 'new modern' methods, thinking it is the right thing to do, and now have issues.. It's like a giant experiment gone wrong. Why didn't I just stick to what I have always done before??? Because I thought the experts? were right and lost confidence in myself.

With other dogs, we have been fairly isolated on properties, they have been with us all the time doing everything and anything we are doing, with no rewards for this, except being with us, no playing with other dogs either. We have always ened up with confident dogs who see us as no. 1 and have no interest in anyone else, to the point of where I have appologised to people for my dogs not responding to their attempts at being friendly with my dogs. My dogs in the past were always fine whether in the city or country. I could just kick myself now as with my current two I have fallen into the social social social trap. *(&*&^%$###$%^@! and now I have to somehow fix what I've done

What fantastic photos. Very intimate. Lovely dogs. 2 very nice looking Vizslas. I have no idea about anything to do with gundog training at all, much to my dismay as I have 2. A viz and a spinone. The dogs just appear to be really enjoying themselves. Wonderful stuff. Are there any decent books that will tell you 'basically' what it is all about. Field trials and retrieving, any gundog sports?? Just for the REAL novice? Keeping in mind I have no idea even what the goals are of the trials.

Thanks for posting the photo link, lovely