m&m

Nekhbet, It's funny you mention that and the amount of supposed experienced trainers who miss it completely. I too have seen exactly that, high prey driven dogs stop dead in their tracks facing a decoy and stare them out in a tail high combative stance. The decoy cannot get prey drive from the dog and the dog is deemed to be scared of the decoy for not engaging in prey, the dog is actually seeing the decoy as a threat, isn't interested in prey games and is essentally contemplating a fight........these are the dogs easily ruined at Schutzhund clubs when the decoy's don't recognise the makings of true social aggression in a young dog.

Right.. Im sorry, who are you exactly? Since you have so much experience with working dogs Im just curious. Would love to know who you are so I can check out some of your work :) The incident in question was when the puppy was 8-10 WEEKS OLD. As in, a baby, who had no focus on me yet, and was totally self confident and had no value for anyone. If you can get a puppy at the age who is totally self assured and create some magical bond in the first 5 minutes, I would love to hear how, you could make millions! For me It took a lot of engagement and drive work between Roscoe and I, but now we have a great bond and there is no training issues with my boy. I simply would not be putting a leash and flat collar collar on a high drive puppy like that again, because of the chance of injury, and I wouldn't recommend anyone else do it either. And Sorry, but what you said was in my opinion, incredibly patronising and completely baseless. I stated that this happened when Roscoe was a baby, hes almost 6 months old now. We're very far past that. I dont see how telling me my puppy lacks drive and I obviously have training issues could be anything but patronising and insulting. No it wasn't you SecretKei, my post was directed to the Rosco puppy. Personally I don't put a leash on a pup until at least 12 weeks after the pup has a value and bond with me first, then introducing a leash is easy. I have seen young pups hitting the end of leashes as described, but I don't like subjecting a young pup to that, neither do I take pups out where they need a leash until their vaccinations are solid as I am paranoid about Parvo and try to protect them from that possiblity the best I can. In the meantime, I just do basic obedience and focus, retrieve exercises and rag work and fun stuff with the puppy. I think too many people get wound up about making every hour count in early puppy training fearing they will ruin the pups chances of being trained, I disagree with that and was proven when Peirre Walstrom took an untrained out of control adolescent GSD the original owners couldn't handle to a world Schutzhund title, I think sometimes trying to do the right thing, people push young pups too hard in regimented training, I prefer to just do basic stuff and have fun in their early life :) Are these comments directed at me? :confused: Obviously we have different beliefs, I choose to take my puppies to as many places as possible from the day I get them, to expose them to everything I can in that time. That early exposure was just too important. Yes there is risk, but there is risk everywhere and I minimized it as much as possible whilst still exposing them to everything in the outside world. 4 week is a long time for a puppy to be stuck in my backyard missing out on everything the world has to offer. I would much prefer to put them on a harness during that time so I can easily move them around without damaging their neck or worry about them have early association to pulling on a collar. "Personally I don't put a leash on a pup until at least 12 weeks after the pup has a value and bond with me first, then introducing a leash is easy. I have seen young pups hitting the end of leashes as described, but I don't like subjecting a young pup to that" So we're in agreement then. But since you have stated that you wouldn't use a harness, how exactly do you move your puppy around for 4 weeks? Are you still breeding Amstaffs? Or do you breed and train working dogs now? You are right, they don't have much handler value and focus at 8 to 10 weeks old, that why I build that first before I put collars and leashes on them ;) When I need to move them, I use that necessity to train in some handler focus as part of the exercise or if that fails, pick them up and carry them at that age, it's not that hard :) Some GSD lines have better pack drive and handler focus than others, I prefer lines that go back on Rolf or Utz for handler focus and trainability, your pup goes back on Hettel lines which is consistant with the amount of work to get focus and pack drive, the reason I don't choose Hettel lines, but that's just my personal preference? There just my views, you have given us yours and anyone interested in the thread can decide what suits them best :)

Ivan Balabanov and Mike Ellis are my most inspiring :)

Gorgeous pup, nice pedigree too, have fun :)

There will always be the good and the bad in all parts of training. I'm sure not every SCH dog is a steely nerved dog either. Actually a good protection dog should not be a fear biter nor highly reactive. That dog should never have been trained for protection in the first place and should have been rejected. Protection is not about instability and explosive aggression, thats nothing more then a dangerous nutter on a leash. I've seen dogs like this, they make a lot of noise and when confronted, piss themselves and run away. Once I worked with a guard who had a dog like this he was mortified he then had to be left on his own to patrol for 12 hours with a useless animal. Protection is about self confidence and not backing down as you have to trust this dog to not only protect you, but to be able to settle and be a safe animal to have around in society. We seem to have lost that idea in Australia a bit with the way some people think training should be. Not all PP dogs will be Sch lined. They may for GSDs but in other breeds you will find titles that go beyond Sch, like ringsport and KNPV. Really liking KNPV line dogs they have an extra edge to them. Nekhbet, I totally agree with the type of dog you describe for protection training, but unfortunately not all involved in security dog training train that type of dog and tend to often strengthen the confidence in nervy reactive dogs to produce what they consider is strength and courage usually described as sharpness and civil aggression. In time, these people get a false impression of what a good is and unless a dog naturally wants to lunge on the leash and bite everyone, they believe a stable dog is then crap with no protective traits? Sharp dogs with civil aggression as they describe what is essentially a fear biter, can't be used in Schutzhund because they lack stability and handler control, infact it would be difficult to get one of these dogs onto the trial field without the dog taking an aggressive lunge at someone on the pathway to the field gate, so a GSD that can't pass a breed suitability test then becomes a better dog than one that can You are correct to say that not all dogs who have passed Schutzhund trials and gained titles have the right nerve for real protection training, but those dogs although have passed Schutzhund trialling won't excel at it either. High scoring dogs in Sch3 protection phase will generally have the nerve required for real protection training, any of the top level WUSV competition dogs we don't get here in Australia to see other than Fax vom Grenzganger about 10 years ago imported as an old retired dog will have the desired breed traits for real protection work. Let's not confuse a Sch3 titled showline dog, that's not a competition dog comparison, neither would a Sch3 showline dog win a world title. Although not all Sch titled dogs will have the right traits for real protection training, a good dog that has will pass Sch testing regardless how good it's assumed protection quality may be, if the dog can't also display stability, trainabilty and handler control to pass Sch testing, it's a crap dog and doesn't need to be reproduced. :)

Hi Bobby, Alpinebase are not Czech dogs, are you talking about AplineK9 in the USA?

Oh yeah, thats what im talking bout ;) !! Beychief has a bitch for Izilop lines :D I think Beychief's are primarily working/showline mixes aren't they?

Before training for protection was banned/restricted to the point of suffocation, there were some really good training orgs who instructed in that field. I found the dogs involved in protection training were actually VERY sound and certainly far from unstable. Dogs without the right nerve and disposition were rejected as candidates for protection training. Maybe what you're seeing Yesmaam, is the result of poxy training, rather than protection training as it should be? Probably talking about security dogs in the private sector, they often like sharp fear aggressive dogs then they don't have to train them to look intimidating?

Hi we use Sentinel Spectrum. It does the lots. http://www.sentinelspectrum.novartis.com.au/

We have our 17 week old Amstaff on 'Pro Plan'. She enjoys it, her poo is firm, her coat is shiny and she is filling out nicely.

Hi we have a very bitey puppy! She seems to be able to learn quite quickly. The chew toys are a great idea but only keep them busy for a little while. I think this biting is normal and will pass over time. We hope!