ahaze

The radio worked! There's only been one or two barks each night for the last two nights in a row. I think our housesitters will be okay with that! Thanks for the input!

Thanks for that, I'll try the radio idea tonight. Unfortunately bringing them into the house at night isn't an option, we're renting and the landlady won't allow dogs in the house.

Any ideas for dealing with it? This morning they've barked at things outside the fence and I've squirted them with a spray bottle, but as soon as I walk outside it distracts them from barking so I doubt the spray bottle is understood. And it doesn't seem all that bothersome to them either...

My dogs are 14 months old now. In August we moved into the house we're in now and since that time they've slept in the laundry room at night with no problems whatsoever. The laundry opens directly onto the backyard, where they spend their time during the day. Over the last three nights one of them, Blues, has been barking and whining incessantly. Initially thinking it was because she needed to go outside, I let them both out. Blues bolted out the door and went to the fence, staring out as if she wanted to chase something. She ran frantically around all sides of the yard but didn't make any noise- and didn't relieve herself. After 5 or ten minutes of running to various points in the fence and staring out, I finally put them away and went back to sleep. 30 minutes later she started up again. Ignoring it doesn't make her stop, hollering "no" doesn't do anything, and letting her outside only stops her temporarily - and this has happened for the last three nights in a row. I'm short on sleep and on temper! Yesterday while my husband had the gate open for a minute, the dogs saw a cat in the next door neighbour's yard and bolted out after it (he was able to chase them down and haul them back in). I'm wondering if this cat has been hanging around to torment them and if it's driving Blues nuts at night, thinking that the cat is out there. Of course, they have been sleeping most of the days away to make up for their nights, but we don't have that luxury. To make matters wose, we're going out of town for 4 days this coming week and having family stay in the house while we're gone - it will be absolutely miserable for them if she keeps this up at night while they're here. Any ideas will be appreciated!

Thanks all for the suggestions- we did end up walking the entire lot to put our smell on it before we brought them in, and my husband even "marked" around the edges! We've now been in town almost a month, and they've gotten comfortable with their surroundings enough that they don't bark at every little noise (only did that for the first couple days) and they've gotten to know all the neighbours. There's even a rottweiler that lives at the back of us who they used to bark and freak out at but not anymore- they're more than happy to quietly sniff each other through the fence. Not sure what would happen if they met without a fence between them, though!! They sleep in the laundry room, on the first night they both cried the whole time but they've been great ever since. In addition to their own toys, all sorts of cricket balls, hand balls and other toys keep "appearing" in our yard or they're digging them out of the leaf litter under the trees all around the edges of the lot - we find amazing amounts of stuff in there, old hangers, bottles, crisp wrappers, you name it. Sigh... they are also getting a lot of enjoyment from playing tug o war with big palm fronds that fall off the palm trees. There's no shortage of entertainment, but Blues has still managed to find time to dig a good sized hole right in front of the back steps. She likes it when I cover it up, gives her something to dig up again!! We tried walking them around the neighbourhood once but it was just too stressful. Every other house it seems has dogs, many of them are small and very hyper and barky, and around the corner from here the people let their two dogs roam around free. As soon as we rounded the corner they started towards us barking, so we quickly turned the other way. They didn't follow. Not sure if that's something we'll try again- at least, not that direction! We scoped out the local beach areas and found several that don't have "no dogs allowed" signs so I'm looking forward to introducing them to the ocean. I expect that will be a very photo worthy day In the meantime, we're getting pretty settled:

Thanks for that- silak, I hadn't thought about the territory issue in that detail, but it makes sense- I will definitely make sure hubby and I walk all around the place before we bring the girls over. I'll also look into what crate options are available. Cheers!

thanks both for your replies. The new place is an hour away, so walking the neighbourhood in the next three days (we move Monday) isn't feasible. They may have to acclimate to their new backyard and sleep in the laundry room on the first night (and hope the landlord doesn't come by for a visit!) and go for a big explore on leads on Tuesday. I will definitely be looking into a trainer or group or *something* I can get involved with to help. Poodle wrangler, there is nothing they like as much as cow poo, so I think that's a losing battle! As for the barking, I think even keeping them in the laundry will be pushing my luck with the landlord, so inside on the polished wood floors is definitely a no go. Hopefully the laundry will be good enough at least to get them settled the first couple nights. I work from home so they're rarely alone, I'd rather train them "by hand" then resort to an antibark collar (not to mention the cost!!) but we'll see if it becomes necessary. I'll definitely start working more on recall with them- an entirely enclosed large backyard that'll be a much better environment for training than on 20 acres. I'll also have a closer look at the leadership issue. I've got lots to learn, I see! Thanks, Andi

Hi all, long time no post! My two pups Rhythm & Blues are now almost 11 months old, and next week we're moving from 20 acres in the country to 1/4 acre in the city, with neighbours on all sides. This is going to require lots of training. 1. They don't get many visitors out here in the country, so they react to everything- kangaroos, cars and trucks going by, people, random noises in the paddock - particularly at night (currently they have a large dingo wire pen 15m x 3m, under cover, that they sleep in and spend the better part of the day in). If they see/hear something out in the paddock they're awake all night, Rhythm constantly pacing, woofing low, whining, growling and occasionally barking, Blues standing at attention and growling. Once or twice a night we may go out and tell them to go back to bed, get them to lay down, tell them they're good... then do it again 30 minutes later. Most times we ignore it and they stop after a while. It doesn't happen all that often, maybe once a week or every two weeks. But once they're in a suburban backyard I fear they'll be even more prone to this behaviour since everything will be new and different. We're renting the house in town, and keeping them indoors is out of the question according to the landlord. What is the best way to handle the behaviour I am anticipating? I am hoping I can enlist the new neighbours to come over and get acquainted with the dogs so they won't bark every time the neighbours are in their own back yards, but that won't help with EVERY other form of stimulus that'll wander by. 2. Even though our 20 acres is fenced with 3 string barbed wire, they can't be trusted to be "outside" unless they're on a lead. For this reason they're kept in the pen a good portion of the day, and taken out for regular walks around the property on leads. If they are outside off the lead, before long one will often take off at a dead run and the other invariably follows, much faster than my husband or I can ever hope to keep up. They'll go annoy the neighbours over the ridge, cross to a neighbouring property to eat cow manure, or run off to chase birds. Thankfully they've never run down to the paved road and tried to interact with cars and trucks going by, but I think that's only a matter of luck. Once they're in "run" mode they ignore every command - I think they know we aren't in touching distance so they can safely ignore us until we finally catch up (sometimes via car) and they start minding again. The rest of the time they're very well behaved and do the basics - sit, stay, come, shake, lay down - promptly and consistently. Is there a way to control this "run away" behaviour so they can be trusted when taken to a park, the beach, etc? It's no fun for any of us if they can't have a bit of fun and freedom. Thanks in advance for any advice you might have! Andi

Thanks for that poodlefan - this is quite a coincidence. I am American, and in my "former life" I worked in commercial radio in San Diego, California. For a long time I worked with Kymythy Schultze and her husband Blair at a radio station there (this was almost 15 years ago!), where Blair was production director and on air talent, and Kymythy was on air part time as well. Blair was my very first mentor in radio, and I just got out of the industry about 1.5 years ago, shortly after which my husband and I moved to QLD (hubby is Australian). I learned a lot from Blair and Kymythy about natural diets for humans. I knew that they were serious about a natural diet for their Newfoundlands too, who often came to work with Kymythy in the evenings. I think I vaguely remember the fact that Kymythy had started writing but never really followed up on it. I'm happy to hear she's respected in her field!

Thank you all for your considerate replies- Jed, I really appreciate your seeing things from my point of view and being so understanding and taking it easy on me! Bommy, these are RSPCA mutt pups, not purebreds. But of course that doesn't mean that I don't still want to do what is best for them! Again, thanks all - I will continue with my research and experimentation.

Gah! I should've known as much! Sorry! I take it back!!

Miranda, I'm curious- I would guess that people who feed their pets a vegetarian diet do so because of their own beliefs. You mentioned you're vegetarian, yet you feed your animals meat. Is that because you are vegetarian for health, rather than moral or other reasons? If that's too personal a question just say so

Re: the Greenpet nutritional supplement: "This is a natural food supplement recommended for all dogs and cats. It contains a blend of highly nutritious foods & supplements to help maintain optimum health. Contains vitamins, minerals, enzymes, trace elements and fatty acids. 100% Australian made. Suitable for VEGETARIAN dogs also. Good nutrition is essential for disease prevention. Contains—Flax meal, rice bran, dolomite, kelp, spirulina, green barley powder, nettle, alfalfa, garlic, rosehips & blackstrap molasses." Vegetarian dogs?! Poor things

Thanks for that link Toohey- looks like a lot of good stuff there!

If you prefer purchasing online, it looks like you can buy them straight from the horses mouth, to mix metaphors : http://www.drianbillinghurst.com/order_aus.html

(As an aside, it was written in 1990, revised in 97, again in 2003, and reprinted in 2006. Someone must think its worth having.)

For those asking about the ingredients in Farrells: wholegrain cereal(s), meat by-products derived from beef and/or sheep and/or poultry and/or pork and salt. Crude protein 12%, crude fibre 5%, crude fat 3%, salt 1% It does indicate "oven baked to blend well with meats, canned food, or moistened with gravy, water or milk. Can be used with vitamins and mineral supplements." Pat Coleby says she gives her dogs raw goats milk with the kibble, supplements, and a tablespoon of whatever she eats. It recommends 170g-230g for large breeds and 120g from small breeds. Regarding eggs, Coleby says "Whole raw eggs can occasionally be added to the diet, but to much raw egg white inhibits trypsin in the gut and is not a good idea. Raw yolk on the other hand is good and could be mixed in puppy and kitten meals once or twice a week. Chopped hard boiled eggs can also be used occasionally." She also notes, "All of the above (referring to meat, bones, fish, cheese, milk/yogurt and eggs), are first class proteins and should not really exceed 5% of the diet for a pet, or 10% for a working dog." I would guess many of you will say this is all flat out wrong. Is there a chance that it could be a bit wrong and you could be a bit wrong too? What is "healthy" in a human diet has seen many fads come and go: no fat, then no protein, then no carbs.... and I think what it has come down to is that a balance is what is needed. Is it possible that the same can be said for animal diets? I won't recount the entire Coleby passage on worms and their prevention with copper and sulphur. But she indicates that if dogs are getting these in proper amounts to begin with, worms will never be a problem. Much of her philosophy revolves around making sure the animal has the right vitamins and minerals in the first place so these problems never appear (thus, we give them the copper and sulphur even though we've never had a problem with fleas or worms - prevention rather than treatment). If vets (and human doctors) tell us that the only way to be healthy is by taking medication (as opposed to taking the right vitamins and minerals) and we don't do further research, of course we're going to believe that a medication is the only way to be healthy. But have you read up on the benefits and purposes of sulphur and copper in diet? Do you even know how much sulphur and copper your animal is getting in its diet? If not, how can you state unequivocally that they *must* have a chemical wormer? As stated directly by me and indirectly by me and many others in this thread, I am completely new at this and by no means an expert. But there's a lot of information available out there by knowledgeable and authoritative sources ranging from vets to pet medication manufacturers to Coleby to Billinghurst. I think it all deserves to be weighed. Incidentally, what does Billinghurst say about worms, anyone?

Thank you all for the strong opinions, I can see that they vary as much here as at any other forum. I find it interesting that rice and carbs are rejected in these responses, but at least one variety of Nutro (recommended in this thread) contains rice, rice flour and rice bran (See here: http://naturalpetfoodsaustralia.com/analysis-dogs.html) Ian Billinghurst's website indicates that the dog is an omnivore... the diet can be based on a wider range of whole raw foods of both animal and plant origin, and that they should be given more vegetables than cats... vegetables which of course contain carbs. And as for the chemical worming... how on earth did dogs survive in the days before people stuffed them with pills?? Please understand I don't mean any of this to be critical of any of you personally, just as I'm sure you didn't intend for me to take your responses to my choices personally. As I said, it would appear there is a great deal of opinion to wade through (as evidenced by the egg debate) and it comes down to each person doing what they think is best. Pat Coleby obviously has her detractors but there is a large contingent of natural farmers, graziers and animal owners who believe her books on natural farming, natural livestock care and natural pet care are the best thing that ever happened to them. Perhaps reading an entire Coleby book to understand more of her method and philosophy, rather than taking quotes here and there out of context and dismissing the entire thing out of hand, would be appropriate. And yes, I would like to read more Billinghurst, as well as other natural methods. As an answer to a question in this thread, we gave them meaty lamb bones in the first couple weeks we had them and they had runny bowel movements and were up at night vomiting. We've backed off on those though still give them occasionally. While at a neighbour's house they were given chicken necks and they were similarly sick and also lethargic all the next day. I don't take either of these things to mean that bones and chicken necks are out of the question, as of course there are a number of variables that could cause these problems - including the unfamiliar surroundings, new people, stress, etc. However, their bowel movements, activity level, water consumption, etc has been *stable* while eating primarily kibble - I take that as a good sign. As to the answer to my original question as to how MUCH to feed Rhythm and Blues, I guess I'll keep searching and experimenting. Thanks all for your input.

My husband and I are completely new at raising pups- we're learning lots from various sources online, but a lot of the info is conflicting: like how much to feed them! Some places say as much as they can eat in 10 minutes, some say follow the back of the dog food bag, some say do anything *but* follow the back of the dog food bag! Another source says to just look at them to see if they're eating enough or too much. We feed them three times a day for now, with the intention of cutting back to twice a day at 6 months. We feed them on Farrell's Kibble, as recommended by Pat Coleby in her book "Natural Pet Care" (we give them about 1/2 cup 3x daily), and they get a few extras - occasional natural yogurt with breakfast, Kong balls at lunch stuffed with peanut butter, rice, eggs, bits of meat - and occasionally we can slip vegies and things into their kibble and they eat it, though they aren't interested in them at all if they are alone. The girls also supplement their meals with rocks, sticks, dirt, roo poo.... We are trying to follow Coleby as much as possible in terms of supplements. We give them a pinch of sulphur each day for external parasites (fleas, ticks, etc), have a bit of copper pipe in their water each day for everything from iron absorption to worming, half teaspoon of dolomite twice a week for calcium and magnesium, and a pinch of kelp powder a week for iodine and trace minerals, and occasionally apple cider vinegar in the water too. They're just over 15 weeks old and about 9.5Kg each. They both have plenty of energy, of course. We give them about 10 minutes of training each morning, and they get several leashed walks/runs around our 20 acre property each day, and they spend a lot of time in their dog run wrestling with each other, so they are getting good exercise. The problem is, they always act like they're starving! This morning as a test, we doubled the size of their morning meal and they both ate it all- they slowed down near the end but they did finish, licked the bowl clean and searched for more. If we were to free feed them there is no doubt they'd over eat. We've read that they should always be a little hungry so as to be more receptive to training with treats- but sometimes they act starved to distraction, particularly Rhythm. So how much is enough food?? Thanks in advance for your input!!