WorkNBCs

Yes I used to poly pipe or honky nuts to show him what I meant by out (but I use get off) - he got the idea fairly quickly and now kicks out beautifully when I ask him to get off. I started by just stepping towards him and saying "out" but he didnt really get that and would only go out to a maximum of around 15m. I then changed the command to "get off" to avoid confusion and used the poly and it worked wonders. The guy I go to for training basically uses the same method and structure as Greg Prince and they talk to each other all the time too so a lot of the stuff I have been told is probably pretty similar to Greg Prince. Incidentally someone told me that Greg Prince kept his trainers for nine years - anyone know if there is any truth in that? I can't imagine keeping my poor old dogged down wethers that long! Cheers

LOL CTD you are going to get into trouble if you say that about kelpies - some of us might say the same about some lines of show bred BCs too - especially the black and white ones. Interesting question about the pet sheep - I would be inclined to make my dogs go and put it in with the mob if it was mine if only to make sure that the dogs dont learn that it is OK to leave one or two behind. Tex was particularly prone to doing that - but less so now because I would insist - as long as he had something to work it didnt really matter. Dogs with a lot of eye will tend to concentrate on the leader/leaders which could be an explanation but doesnt sound like it if that was the only one that was left. The only other thing I can think of is that the pet sheep has been away from other sheep so much that it doesnt behave or move like a sheep so the dog thinks it isnt one - sounds a bit strange but some friends of mine have a pet lamb that lives as part of the family - it runs with the dogs and their jack russells and border collies treat it like it is just another dog. Cheers

Hi again Superminty - first of all casting - it has been about the last thing I really worked on (but he needs more on his walk up too). Before really working on casting I worked on distance so that he knew what "get off" meant. Then back to the drawing board with his cast which had been pretty horrible. I started with sheep in a small pen and sent him round with me right up at the pen pushing him out with the "get off" command. When he got the idea that he really had to get behind them - it was out in the paddock - and again I started up close to the sheep gradually moving back towards him. He is a pretty smart dog and soon realised that if he kept his distance the sheep were not going anywhere. His cast is a bit shallow still but luckily he has a pretty reasonable stop and again learned that if he stopped so did the sheep - well hopefully. As you move away from the sheep you need to be aware of where he starts to slice in and put pressure on him just before that point. With Tex I found myself moving out toward him and then up toward the sheep to get that result - a sort of L shape. Hope that is some help. His back cast still needs some work as he tends to cross - something I inadvertantly trained in to him. I made the mistake of concentrating on his good side (the round) to the point where he has got it into his head that he needs to go that way and for now that is the way I would always cast him in a trial. We are starting to get somewhere on the back side to the point where I am now about half way back on a 150m cast. Interestingly when he doesnt cross his back cast is probably slightly better. I would recommend that when you are working on casting you do as much one side as the other so Cash learns that he is supposed to do it whichever way you send him. As for how do I work with just two sheep? LOL it is about the only way I can get them to move because they are so dogged. We have six or seven of us train here on a fairly regular basis and those sheep know the routine and know the dogs. I only have nine merino wethers which with just 30 acres of not very good ground under pasture is a bit of a luxury anyway. Normally I can use my ewes but they are running with the ram right now and some out of season lambs which are too young to work are in with them anyway. The upshot is some very quiet sheep which is great when you are teaching something new but not so good if you really want to test your dog. Cheers

Nope lol I was trying to be clever with a pun on her name - I meant her work is really tidy as in not all over the place Cheers

Hi Superminty Cash looks like a lovely strong dog and nicely under control - especially as he is so young. Interesting he has a very different style cast from my guy - and what a walk up - wish I could get my dog to do that as confidently. Vickie I went back and realised you had a video of Trim balancing - how old is Trim? Trim and Tidy is about it - got any more for us? Cheers

Well you guys talking about round yards and videos and so on spurred me into looking at what I had and getting my camera out - and there are three videos of Tex - my now four year old border collie who I have been training seriously for around the last 18 months (as compared with dabbling in it for his first year with me). from a year ago shows him working in the round yard - in retrospect I should have had him out of there way before then and the close working has come back to haunt me until recently. I have been working really hard on his cast recently and the one here is getting close to what I am looking for - I still need a bit more distance at the top though We were given this nifty exercise to help with off balance work and also to try and get us to concentrate on the sheep rather than the dog. The idea is to walk one side of the line of markers set around 7m apart and weave the sheep between them. My sheep are such knee huggers that this is really hard work - roll on my new ewe lambs being ready to work in a couple of months. The other exercise I like for off balance is walking the sheep round the outside of a square while I stay in the middle eventually the aim is to move the markers out so the square is around 40m - currently set at around 15m as compared with 10 when I started trying it. Any other fun exercises anyone has would be gratefully received. Cheers

I too am sorry if you saw my comments about the way round was being used as criticism - it certainly was not intended that way. Your little pup showed heaps of instinct - but my concern - and that of others that you may have seen as detractors - was that she may get into bad habits such as chasing, the way the handler was using the round yard. I would certainly be interested to see how she went in the open paddock as potentially she shows a lot of drive and talent providing she is given the right start on what is, after all, a pretty difficult sport. Cheers

I would love to get to a Greg Prince school but it is a heck of a way from WA unless we get him back here again. The trainer I go to over here is a big fan of using round yards to start a dog and his method has turned out some pretty useful dogs round the place. Next time round I will definitely get out into the paddock once the dog is switched on and able to balance and then just do short sessions in the round yard for stop and sides. One of the things i like about the approach I have been taught is that everything is under control and set up for success - so I am in control when first teaching it. With two dogs currently working - one towards the end of her trialling life and the other aged four and at the start, I have decided not to do anything about a pup for a year. Hopefully by the time I do put my bitch in pup I will have learned enough to be able to start the pup I keep with a lot fewer mistakes than I have made this time round. Cheers

Couldnt agree more about using a round yard or paddock inappropriately for training being harmful - similarly if any part of training is overdone it can cause problems too - I learned this one the hard way. I am not convinced that in starting you need to distinguish between a paddocky and yardy dog - there are lots of people with both types who have started either way successfully. At the end of the day you need to do what works for you and for your dog - my preference is for a round yard because I dont have the energy and legs to stop a pup chasing if it all goes pear shaped and most of our paddocks have lots of trees making it tough for an inexperienced dog. However, in retrospect I probably over used it with my first dog, mainly because of lack of confidence, and will try not to make that mistake next time round. I think at the end of the day the issue is about having control so that when you are teaching a dog something new it all happens as it is supposed to so the dog learns the right way rather than the wrong way of doing things. How you achieve that control is really up to you but for me personally I have found the round yard is the best way of doing things although i may open to try something else further down the track Cheers

Sorry that should read "balance the sheep to them"

Using the round yard correctly is the crux of it. In that video the handler was letting the pup chase rather than head the stock because he was moving in circles - making the stock move in wider circles and the poor pup in the widest circles of all. The yard is round to stop the sheep getting stuck in corners. However, as handlers we need to move in straight lines across it to give the dog somewhere to take the sheep. The rake should be used to block the pup, primarily from going between sheep and handler but also to get a change of direction. Early on it is important to make sure that the sheep themselves are partially blocked by the handler to give the beginner dog a chance to get there and turn them. Sounds a bit woolly? Probably because it is hard to explain - really you need to see someone who uses a round yard well to start a dog, actually doing it. I dont think even the biggest fan of round yards advocates staying there long - in fact all the ones I have heard want to get their dogs out of there at least some of the time pretty quickly - but not until the dog has switched on and grown physically and mentally enough to balance to them. A good way to test this is to then let the dog take the sheep for a walk in a paddock or other open area and make sure the dog does keep the sheep to the handler. Then back to the round yard for teaching stop and sides and back out again to test them - initially in a small area and then increase it once they are 100%. The basis for starting a dog in the round yard and then using it again periodically for teaching specific tasks is that if the dog is set up for success so it always does it right - it wont do it wrong. I work my dogs in the open now but if I am getting problems with stops or sides I have no hesitation about going back into the round yard for a quick session to put it right. Hope this is some help Cheers

Hi CTD if you want to do herding later the last thing you want to do is let her have a free go at your chooks - all you are doing is teaching her to work for herself and not have you in the frame at all. Although she may crouch and eye them that is not necessarily instinct, especially if she is just chasing. As other people have already suggested - teach her to work stock that flock - she isnt too young to try on sheep - although you should only do this with someone who really knows what they are doing as it is too easy to switch them off at a young age. You also want to make sure you use quiet dogged down sheep that are not going to hurt her or bolt which would just encourage her to chase. Don't be disappointed if she does not switch on to sheep immediately as some dogs only start working as late as a year or even older. Hope this is some help and good luck with her