Luke GSP

Have you ever been to a rough shoot in the UK? I've seen spanners of all types cover terrain that i wouldn't want to cover on foot, let alone running with a pheasant that is several times bigger than my head, in my mouth. :) Cockers were viewed in a similar way in the UK up until recently when people have realised that the dogs physical size is far outweighed by its work ethic. I know people that use them for waterfowling, not talking ducks, i'm talking Geese, and they still work on. You are correct in regard to springers, and I am in touch with several working line breeders over here for springers haven't discounted them by any means, but I would still want to get my hands on a working Cocker as well. :) I suppose as well that I am not someone that tends to take the easy route (some might say stubborn :laugh: ) but the way I look at it is that any of the magnificent dogs that are in Australia were at some point in the same position as the working cocker. There are a very limited number of people here that have them and maybe by getting some, I might be able to help in that establishment? Everything starts from something small. In regard to weims, the only working ones I have seen were HPR or peg dogs much the same as a GSP, What trait is it that you feel would be so uniquely negative about a working line weim, compared to say a working line GSP? I hear what you are saying about ability in pups from a FTCH mating, and of course you would expect all of the pups to have working ability and drive, but I would also expect that some would stand out and make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. Obviously with such small litter sizes and the fact that, people interested in them would probably have at least a passing interest in trial-ling, shooting or at least gundogs, I would expect that anyone that WANTED a working line cocker would have at least a vague idea of what they are getting in to. :)

I would think that there would be people within the field trial world that would be interested in one? I suppose it is dependent on whether you were thinking of doing it so that you had the dogs yourself, and the ones you would sell would be the pups that were "surplus" to requirements due to showing less desirable traits. Much the same as a show home moving dogs along that were not show quality on a limited register.And looking at the initial cost of starting your blood line (30-60K depending on cost of importation, and number of dogs you were looking to import to start?) either as a cost to get what YOU want, or as an investment that you are looking to make a "return" on? If the later then I think you would need to question the idea as obviously return is governed by demand. If the previous I would find it improbable that in a country of 20+ million people that there were not 2-4 people that would like a quality working line puppy from periodic breedings? I think that it also requires some realization that just because a working line is in an animals blood, it doesn't mean that it will be a nutter and never stop moving. That is why i am looking at the possibility of titled dogs, I know they are good (expensive, compared to a FTCH line puppy) but you know that the dog can and is producing the goods. Much the same as when you had a litter, you would select the puppies with the best chance of becoming what you want them to be (probably reasonably bold, inquisitive and high drive puppies)where the ones that were not as strong in those traits would be the ones that you were looking to move on, which in reality would mean that they are probably more suited to a working home, ergo a pet home with people that like an energetic dog. :) As long as you sold them as working line dogs that require exercise and stimulation I don't see that you would have any further issues than any other breeder of energetic breeds. My family come from an area in the UK where pretty much every dog is from a working line (keepers dogs) and yet every dog is not a trained gundog. lots of them are pets and lots of them are very happy dogs.

He looks working line to me :) in reference to the second article. It's no different to someone buying a powerful breed dog because a rapper has one and then wonders why it destroys everything and they have no control physical or otherwise over the animal. If you train an animal correctly with traits, in mind and tailor the training to the dog in front of you(not breed) in question, chances are you will have a successful result, and vice versa. Sadly just another case of the stupidity of humans causing issues for an animal.

Isn't that the story the world over? misinformed potential owner becomes an owner, bundle of cuteness becomes furry demon, house gets destroyed, owner gets rid of dog! My Dad and Sister worked in rescue in the UK in an area that was rural so i'm reasonably aware of working bred dogs versus pet/show lines issues. Pretty sure that if you went round the pounds in Australia though, you'd be hard pressed to find a working line dog. Lots of BYB bred animals though, genetic line and traits are different, sadly the story and outcome is the same

Yeah, I know, pretty sure i've spoken to them before :) to discuss this subject. If not then maybe there are two people breeding Working cockers in WA? Sounds like a revolution :laugh:

TSD, As this is a way off (assuming I don't want to gain a spaniel and lose a wife :laugh: ) I plan to do plenty of research before taking any plunge. For instance, I am making inroads in to shooting opportunities in NSW and plan this year to attend some Aussie field trials. Not sure yet whether trialing is for me, but happy to have a look and go from there, either way I am sure that I will meet some great people and dogs along the way.

Sounds and looks like a great dog, I think working cockers are one of those breeds that really flourishes in partnership with their handler, your not going to "make" them do anything, but once you've got them bonded to you they'll do everything. :) Not sure how many people here have seen the cocker spaniels DVD series from Hawcroft kennels or Placeboard training from from the openshaws at Rytex kennels, but to watch the DVD's is a very pleasurable experience, and not because they only show you the good bits, they show you the bad and how they correct it, whilst continuing to garner the relationship. Anyone that has shot over or worked with gundogs, who watches those DVD's without thinking "I need to get me one of those" has had their heart frozen from to many waterfowling sessions. :laugh:

Believe me I would love the opportunity to gain exposure to working cockers here, but there simply aren't enough to gain that exposure. I'm not getting any younger either and want my next dog to be something a bit special, (not that they aren't all special to their owners)

Hey Showdog, Where are you based? Are the rehomes from pet homes that brought one by mistake or shooting homes that failed to adjust to the cockers? Believe me, I am under no illusion as to working breeds, I used to shoot over spaniels in the UK and actually had organised to buy two already trained and adult dogs before coming to Australia, but when we found out about the process to get them out here (ten years ago) we decided it would be unfair to put the dog through that, especially as when we arrived, we had to organise our own living arrangements and schooling for the non fur kids. As I said, i am looking a few years forward as currently I already have two GSP's and an English cocker and I probably need to bide my time a little before suggesting any more additions to the wife. :laugh:

I have also heard this, but wasn't sure if they were still there as I couldn't find much info? I also don't know how old a line they are/were, as I believe that a lot of the current UK lines are supposed to be a lot less "stubborn or mental" and a lot more biddable than cockers "were". Not discounting the idea though, so if anyone has any info please send it through.

Fundamentally, I would be planning to possibly trial the parents and then keep pups from the litters to train up myself (for both shooting and possibly field trials) then move the remaining pups to either working or agility homes. From there it would depend on the "market". I have spoken to one of the few breeders that already has working line cockers in Australia and he has a great mix of lines in his kennel, but obviously as the community is very small, adding the possibility of some extra lines in should/could enable some wider choices. Cockers have gained a huge amount of traction in the UK as utility gundogs (they were viewed as mental and very hard to train historically) but that has changed a lot in recent times and there are some beautiful, hard working cockers out there. (they are still a bit mental but that's spanners in general IMO :laugh: ) Check out some of the footage from cocker spaniel championship trials, some of these dogs have a work ethic that is way bigger than their physical size. average litter is 5 IME At this stage, it is purely a thought, i'm not interested in becoming a BYB to try and make money, I have a job for that :), I used to shoot (rough and driven) in the UK and would like to continue as best I can over here. My rationale was/is purely to get hold of some awesome dogs for me, and perhaps make them available for any like minded individuals that would like to own a pocket rocket.

Hi All, I am finding myself more and more interested in working line Cocker Spaniels and although several years in the future, I am considering that for my next dog I might try and import a titled (Field trial) Coccker bith from the UK. I believe that the maximum litter over there is for 4 litters from one bitch and hence after that the dog cannot generate any further income and hence is not as desireable to keep hold of. My thoughts were to import a dog that was titled but had hit that limit with the aim of bringing her in and having one maybe two litters max, then retiring her and keeping her as a pet. I may also bring a similar Dog in from the UK so that they would be a mating pair. The aim of this being 1, I think they would be awesome dogs to own 2, They would be amazing to work with 3, It would add a further working bloodline (from what I can see there are very few working line cocker breeders in AUS currently) Thoughts? anyone have any experience in these matters and wishing to advise? Thanks in advance for any advice offered

I agree, maybe just get yourself one and look at it from time to time, taking in its design and aesthetics. sounds perfectly legitimate to me. i know a few people that enjoy owning them (purely for the sake of having it in a drawer of course) and their dogs have an almost remarkable recall. Incredible coincidence of course :)

Nice idea with the blue tongue but I reckon that ruby is right and you'd end up with a dog that avoided bluetongues. I think a lot depends on the dog, my female tends to stay out of trouble, but my male is in any thing, full bore. When he had the last red belly black snake. the female was there but didn't touch it by the look of her afterwards and recalled by voice. My male only came back to his "special whistle" that he always comes back to, carrying the front half (about 70cm) of the snake. He has also had to be called off of a snake that he had obviously "had" as it was damaged. but he was still trying to find the right angle whilst the snake was striking out. (now that was worrying, had to get the wife to use the whistle whilst I tried to get the snakes attention so that the dog didn't turn to us and get struck in the side of the head ) Some dogs have natural snake sense, others don't. A friend of mine was fishing and his dog would not walk down a particular bank which was odd, all became apparent a few seconds later when my mate noticed an adult brown snake deep in the grass. I think to get the best results, you would need to use either dead snakes that you could have inanimate or moving (by the use of a pull string) or live snakes in wire enclosures for the protection of both the dog and the snake. Some of the enclosures could be fairly small to represent a static snake but others would have to be big enough that the snake could react within the enclosure but still be separated from the dog. Some dogs wouldn't "go for" a curled up snake, but they might if it reared up. so you would need to proof all to be sure, Smell, static and moving and probably with a mixture of types of snake. Personally I would want the dog to be conditioned to leave the snake well alone without a command, as in reality the dog is probably going to be near it, or smell it before I get the chance see it myself and issue a command. You would need a very understanding herper and some decent engineering to make it happen, but I think it could be a great thing if done correctly.

Every training tool has the potential for cruelty (at varying degrees, psychological, physical or both) if not used properly. An ecollar used correctly, in the right situation with a dog that is suited to it is in no way cruel IMO. Believe me, as an owner who has had to make the dash to get snake bite testing done a couple of times lucky for me, my dog has always come out on top and managed to get the snake before it got him, (hoping his luck doesn't run out) I would welcome a legal "snake proofing" service for the good of my dog and the snakes. My problem wouldn't be the use of the collar, it would be trying to get hold of a cooperative snake Great question, but i would expect that this thread will quickly degenerate in to an e collars are evil thread, much the same as most other threads that mention them.

I did with Weez :) Worked great for him specifically. Ok, there are always exceptions. maybe "cannot" was too generalised. I will change to " it would be very unusual if you could" I did try it once as a joke...I was working Fly, (who is about as ball obsessed as a dog can get) and I said "where's your ball?".I wish I'd videoed it. She flipped, gave me the wild eyes, looked at the ball, then looked at me in disgust & went back to her sheep. That's funny! The first time I had game and food side by side Em spat the food out :laugh: I did teach her to accept whichever I chose but I'm not sure it would work on live game. In terms of other behaviours around retrieving I work on conditioned responses away from the activity using dummies and food - deliveries, sit stays, recalls, whistle sits, distance handling etc. Then I add game (which sends her over the top and works as both a fabulous temptation and a brilliant reward), followed by the excitement of a trial. Ah yes, the old, "get that treat away from my mouth can't you see I am trying to make that bird, rabbit, possum explode just by staring at it!" syndrome :laugh:

In honesty, I'm not sure that what you describe has anything to do with you or the methods you were employing, I think most entities, humans and animals go through periods of development and additional motivation, it's really a matter of exploiting them when they occur to maximise the benefit. :)

I think sometimes you want to "direct" that enthusiasm, sometimes you want to wind it back a little (rein it in), and sometimes people want to suppress it all together (which usually means they brought the wrong dog in the first place ) Sadly most people want to apply one method to train a "Dog", Clicker, Drive training, shaping, luring etc etc, the list goes on, however a good trainer (not saying I am one by the way :laugh: )looks at the animal in front of it then works out the best method/style of training for that animal to get the desired outcome. Ask two trainers to talk about training and pretty much the only thing they will agree on is that the third trainer is doing it wrong :laugh:

Ain't that the truth :-) train the dog in front of you by applying the correct tool in the correct manner :-)

I have noticed more on a global front that especially gun dog training is very strong on Ecollar work more than any other discipline it seems? I think that is because in a lot of situations, they are working with dogs with huge amounts of Drive and enthusiasm but that need to conduct their business in a more controlled manner, hence they are trying to rein in some of the enthusiasm a bit. It seems especially prevalent in the US pointing and retriever fraternity.

The method that I have seen being used was by Steve, have to say that with a suitable dog the results were pretty evident straight away, however when trying to research the use of "drive"training in gundogs, I came across this, Gundogs and drive which again throws the balls in the air Maybe the problem is that we try and put way to much theory in to the why it is having an effect (desirable or not) and just either use the effect to our advantage or if the method seems to not suit a dog, just leave well alone? In regard to Drive training, has there actually been any studies to document what is going on within the dog, or is it all theory? Please do not get me wrong, I am not trying to put Steve or anyone else's methods or methodology down, I have seen his results first hand and think he is a fantastic trainer, just asking the question as I would like to know the background if it's available. :)

My shooting instructor used to say "practice makes permanent, perfect practice makes perfect" and totally agree that it applies here as well :)

Thats why I only reward when he gets it spot on, just wondering if others did the same or not

So when you say "at all" do you mean literally not at all? When I say I correct, I am talking about saying "no" as soon as he creeps, stepping back to him, positioning him back on the spot and starting again.

I know but this little cocker is so fun to train and he picks stuff up so quick its sometimes hard to hold back, as you can literally see him working it out and once he gets it, he's pretty solid. He retrieves well including following hand signals, sits and lays down with great enthusiasm and is a great little hunter (even if he is just hunting a stuffed duck under the cushions :laugh: he thinks he's tops :) ) Absolutely loving working him.