Arya

Aha! I have heard it mentioned by Bernhard Flinks as I said Boy, it is good! Don't know why more people don't use. only thing is, have to hunt around to find strong enough hose. Washing machine hose seems to be the go in our house LOL.

Hey Arya, I retrained myself and Faxon for the stays. I don't use a "stay" command anymore. So my stay looks like: Say "sit", mark the stay "Yes!", leave dog, wait specified time, return to dog, then release "Break!" This way sit means sit until I tell you to do something else like "break" or "come" or "drop" etc. The same applies to stand and drop. For this to work a clear release word is vital. Bear. Hey Bear I think we just work a little differently but basically the same. The thing is, your way might be a really great help to another DOLer who was looking for stays help last week - Glorybea! She could try this. I will alert her to your post. It might be that your way really solves her problem with stays. I don't think she's tried what you do! Cheers

Hi everyone, thanks so much for the replies, this is so heartening! This is something I noticed when giong to watch Sch Trials - everyone is so friendly there!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Like big family Jeff, the hose idea came from a friend who trains in ANKC obedience, Andrew Macdonald. He swears by them and uses them to build prey drive. Previously I used balls. I have swapped and find the difference amazing. Forty centimetre piece of hose, first tucked along my forearm in sight of the dog, then moved inside my sleeve. Now as we've progressed, in my back pocket. I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I flick the hose around and activate her drive, stick it in my back pocket, heel off and if I want to increase the prey drive, I make a movement with my arm like I'm reaching behind me to get it. I can turn the drive up and down in this way. Here eyes nearly pop out of her head LOL. Then throw short distance like the dummy I've seen they use with customs dogs in mail room, then she brings it back and we have quick tug. Then off go again GREAT STUFF!!! I have seen something similar on Leerburg Bernhard Flinks DVD but with ball on string? Kavik, Jeffncel, I will definitely give it a try! I know of three Sch clubs not that far away from me I can check out. My girl is three years old. Just settling down nicely and maturing now (late bloomer LOL)!

No Faxonandbear I get you perfectly For me this is 'all finished' and is extremely important. I use a phrase for this, which is understood perfectly by the dog. I use it in preference to 'free'. It truly marks the complete end of the excercise and training time. However, I use the marker for stays too. It works well for me this way. So if we really reach the total end I will say 'yes' and 'all finished!'. This is the signal that it is over. But I wouldn't use a release word the way you use it, I think. I understand perfectly just don't work that way. I do hope I haven't muddied the mud puddle further

I have a question I am hoping some of you Sch. enthusiasts might be able to help me with. I am just curious. My girl is a show line shepherd BUT, she is not really a 'show' looking girl. She is very light build, extremely fast, atheletic. She has GREAT prey drive. I mean great. I have her heeling like the Sch. 3 dogs on OB I've seen working here. She is very full on. She will switch into prey drive anywhere, any time if you show her her hose. She will also run like hell to take a bite roll and seems to have good grip to my inexperienced eye. BUT, that is only ME playing with her LOL. I use it to build drive in the recall for ANKC obedience. The thing is, she appears to have a nervous crack in her temperament that can make her freeze over and not work in the ANKC trial ring. It is related in part to being around other dogs. I'm confused. Somebody at a Sch club told me she was too soft. Someone else told me if she has great prey drive she could do all aspects of Sch safely, without risk to her. Now I know that this question is really academic because to truly know I'd have to take her and get her tested and really, I do suspect she'd fail. But one day in the future I'd like to at least get her BH and maybe do the OB and tracking side of Sch. Is this possible and welcomed at clubs? Just wondering what DOLers opinions are. Once K9 said on a thread that her temperament can't be THAT soft if she can switch into prey drive anywhere. He said the dog can't be in prey drive if it is afraid. What are other's thoughts? All interesting to me

BRILLIANTLY SAID NEKHBET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At the end of the day I know that my body language will always overrule any verbal given, so don't stress about it too much. I agree with the above. I also think we aren't crediting the dogs with enough intelligence here. Shoot me down everyone LOL but my experience has always been that the dog CAN tell the difference. Sure, they know the words but I believe they have the simple ability to recognise those words in the context with which they are meant. For example, my marker word is 'yes'. One I was warned not to use but I know lots use it. Now I worried, cos at the start of a Trial run thru for each excercise of course the judge asks if you're ready and I say 'yes'. Is the dog released? Nup. I have seen her and tested this out. No, no, in any other situation when I'm using that word, except when she is working and I am aiming it at her, then it takes on a different meaning for her. I also disagree about them not 'unintentionally' pairing words with rewards. Take good, excellent, good dog, whatever. What is it paired with? Your approval! That is a reward. Also, and here is the cool and slightly funny thing about 'naughty' words. Stop and take note. When you say a naughty word (the 'f' word is a classic as it doesn't get said often around our house but if something really annoying happens, well... what can I say). Try saying it around your dog. Ears down. Woops, there's trouble about! they pair the words with meaning and it's imho lots of examples of spontaneous Pavlovian conditioning. Pavlovian conditioning at its basis is, of course, a day to day survival mechanism built into animals. It's not just something Pavlov invented. So in short ... I think OK is just as good as any other word as a marker, whatever Victoria says.

In addition to Arya's suggestion to read the thread by K9 Force, you also need to do more work on your recalls and proof them on lead. Long-lines are good for this (note : NOT retractable leads). You are right not to scold when your dog comes back to you .... even if he didn't respond without a great amount of effort from you. The reward for recall should always be a good one, in the eyes of your dog. Also make sure your leadership (as viewed by your dog) is in place and that you control your dog's valuable resources. Pack drive is what is required for the control you need when you've graduated to off-lead work. Oh, good point about NOT retractable leads Erny. I always forget this and HATE them really especially for big dogs, though I know some people love them for their smaller dogs

Have a look at K9s comments on the first page of the socialisation and neutralisation thread on section at the moment. I wouldn't hesitate to call him back if you see another dog coming. Don't let him run off and play iwth other dogs willy nilly. Make the reward for coming back so high that he wouldn't give it another thought. You have to work on this over and over again for a long time, I found. Especially if the dog has learned it's fun to nick off and play with other dogs. I use my bit of hose for this. My dog loves it to bits. She will ignore other dogs in the vicinity to play with ME and the hose any time, no questions asked. In fact, she would get very aggro if another dog barged up and tried to join in, even in a friendly manner. I still have to watch this. Not our fault but have to think of other people who think all dogs should just play together happily (hate the comment 'he's friendly, you don't have to worry LOL). I used to use balls for this sort of training too but nowadays prefer the hose a million times better. Think of the cloth rolled up towel 'dummy' the customs people use with their labs in the mail room. It's a question of a lot of hard work to get to this stage though. I'd put on a long line if other dogs around (bearing in mind that imho a long line can be dangerous if not used carefully, as the force the dog exerts is magnified the further he runs from you, if you know what I mean). Play lots of recall games with him, sounds like you are doing anyway. Feed him every time he returns to you, or play iwth him with his favourite toy that he's only allowed to have when playing with you. But my rule is, if he nicks off to other dogs in preference to you just don't let him off. Don't allow it. It's hard to compete with the fun of other dogs. Don't try. He won't wilt away for not being off lead as often as you'd like as long as he gets lots of excercise. Good luck!!!

Aldahoven Jaeger GSD 200 pts in the ring... he's not desexed!!!!!!!!!!!!! The idea that you have to desex your dog to have it perform better in Obedience is utter CRAP. And I could name plenty of others. Plus, in some respects, with these purebred Trialling dogs, why would you desex them? Wouldn't you want to use them to perpetuate good working capabilities? As I said in the other post, take no notice.

Quote from your first post: Some people also believe that you should teach your dog that some items, such as other dogs have a positive value, in other words, are fun to be around. I dont agree with this but nor do I stop people from doing it. I just dont do it. I prefer to neutralise my dogs to everything accept me & what I can give the dog. So that is me, my affection, praise, pats, prey items & food that my dog finds valueable, not anything else. This makes every type of training go so much smoother & faster. I dont want my dogs tossing up if they would rather come to me or go play with another dog. This opens up a huge can of worms when it comes to dog parks, meeting friends & letting your dogs play etc. Allowing your dog to run free with many other dogs is a huge risk, many temperament defects such as unresolved pack issues, rank issues & fear issues can surface in a heart beat, resulting in your dog being attacked or attacking another. For those who like to see their dogs play with others, they also should know the risks. I want my dog to see me as #1, there really is no #2. It also removes the possibility of dogs destroying my dogs temperament & my dogs becoming too distracted by other dogs when I need them focussed on me. This was a very important lesson I had to learn and I think it truly is perhaps the most important lesson anyone can learn in dog training!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hear hear Mrs D!!!!!!!!!!!!! What a great response Imho, i've never heard anything so silly in my life as to say an entire dog can't pay attention in class. Does that mean there are bitches in season on the field every week or something??? You are right Mrs D. There is always someone ready to tell you that you are doing things wrong, your dog is wrong this wrong that wrong the other. Just look straight ahead and do the enjoyable thing and carry on achieving your goals training, entire or not!!! I wonder why the trainer was so down on entire dogs, though. It's a bit sad.

Here is another mindless brag from me I was thinking about on the recall. Tho we've been having trouble in the heeling in trials lately (though things are looking up at last now in CCD), I must say at our last Trial we did something I never would have thought possible twelve months ago. After just failing the heeling (as usual) we got 20 out of 20 in the recall at Moorabbin the other week! WOW! Why don't we think about our achievements more and concentrate on our failures less (well me anyway!!!!!!!!!!!!!!). Eighteen months ago my dog would have got up and tore out of the ring wildly, not listening to anyone. But we did get that score in the recall, in CCD. So that is my little mindless brag for this week Well done everyone! Let's all concentrate on the good stuff, I say ;)

For some reason I haven't seen this thread before and I haven't read all of it by any means yet but K9 THANK YOU THANK YOU for your first post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Some sense in a sometimes senseless world of dog training LOL.

Kavik, this sounds cool! And heaps of fun!!! But how did you reward her besides the clicker. As you backchained each step, did you do anything else? See, I just couldn't use the CR. I'd have to add another cue to the dog to indicate to them how they were going. I particularly find this important for excercises where the dog is required to work far away from you. So, even though you start off close, the body posture and word as you move further away and fade yourself out tells the dog that all is going well. With a clicker, do you then introduce a word like 'good' once the behaviours are chained together, just to reinforce at each chaining, until it is solid? Or do you stick with the clicker? I'm just curious. Using the clicker with the cat, the tricks I do are still very simple. Spin, beg, sit, jump thru a hoop. Using target stick. Just can't do this with dog. Even with target stick, I have used it to teach the dog to spin and then ditched it as my body was giving a better indicator. In other words she was targetting me rather than the stick. My hand. Only drawback... on marching, dog constantly tried to target my foot with her paw for a long time. Couldn't fade out as well as a stick. ALL INTERESTING STUFF! Don't get me wrong, either. Just because I disagreed with Kelpie-i's disagreement I think that we are both right I think that probably, the mark of a good trainer is to learn that others have great ways too and to try everyone's ways and never be closed-minded. That way, you always have something to pull out when you need it in a training situation and what's more, you always respect other trainers and their methods

I'm going to disagree somewhat here Arya. I offer a Boarding/Training service and therefore have worked with hundreds of dogs over the years. I have used a clicker for 95% of those dogs with absolutely no problems and with much success. The dogs learn soooo much quicker with the clicker, especially when you are given a very short time span to teach them in some cases. The only dogs I found did not respond to a clicker were those dogs with absolutely no food or toy drive and those dogs who where extremely timid/frightful that they jumped at the sound of the clicker. Otherwise, no problems whatsoever. I also use a clicker with aggression cases and find it extremely useful for handlers who have no voice (enthusiasm) when training. I think the better statement to make here is that it's not the case of whether or not the clicker is suited to all, it's more the case of whether it is preferred. Downside, it can make you become lazy to praise, but some dogs couldn't give 2 cahoots about pats especially when the owner is dishing out pats every 5 mins for nothing. But wouldn't this rather be lack of skill with the handler? Isn't it better to teach the handler to use voice tone and body language as part of the reward? How on earth can you increase the level of enthusiasm with the clicker when you are performing a complex series of behaviours, or decrease it depending on the dog's reaction you want? Here's an example I recently did, helping a friend to teach her dog to carry a basket out to a toy, place the toy in the basket, then carry basket with toy in it back to the handler. Now this is several complex behaviours. The dog was losing it, lacked confidence, could not chain the behaviours together well without stuffing up. The word 'yes' was the conditioned reinforcer. So dog carries basket out to toy. Small, calm, 'yes'. Dog is rewarded, due to Pavlovian conditioning. Second behaviour - dog places toy in basket. Slightly more enthusiastic 'yes', good old Pavlov again helps us out. Handler smiling, slightly lowering body position. Dog has now performed second behaviour that required considerable coordination and needed calmer response so second 'yes' coudl be more enthusiastic and include change in body position. Dog carries basket back to handler 'YES" and food reward. Big yes, handler stands up straight and roughs dog up, and gives food reward, then invites dog to jump up, thus increasing enthusiasm by elevating status. How can a clicker compete with this, when teaching at a higher level? It can't, sorry. Great for simpler excercises perhaps but for a higher level of training, I don't like to use it. In saying this, I've seen Mary Rae use it exceptionally well. But I belive Luke Hura doesn't. So I will agree that it is personal choice and yes, almost all dogs will work with it but will they really work and learn to the best of their ability at higher levels??? Hmmm, interesting to think about

What the??? Shake hands, a BAD trick to teach????? That is HO HA I am here to tell you that your dog will sit straight with all four paws on the ground if you teach the shake hands command. Shake hands is shake hands. Sit is sit. They can tell the difference. Pawing at you for attention is also a behaviour motivated by different reasons. If the dog offers a shake to you sometimes when you are teaching something else, this is sometimes referred to as 'superstitious behaviour'. It might not be a shake, it might be something else the dog knows well and can do automatically, like bark. The reason for this is lack of understanding of the command you are giving on a new trick or obedience excercise. I am here to tell you that my girl plays up in the ring but she has a suite of more than a dozen tricks and I've yet to see her pull one in the ring at an obedience trial. TEACH SHAKE HANDS. It's a very important trick. You have just taught your dog to target your hand with its paw. From there you can teach numerous other tricks, like targetting a small piece of mat or tin lid with the paw and then running to a mark and banging the paw down on it and standing, sitting whatever. You can also teach your dog to switch lamps/lights on from this simple shake excercise. Targetting the hand, then targetting the switch and fading the hand away. You can then teach them to wave too. Don't let anyone tell you differently. Shake hands is great and won't interfere with obedience excercises. Neither will any other tricks. Not even doggy dancing where the heel position is not stuck to and I'm sure agility peope (LP?) will tell you working on the right hand side of you and stuff won't interfere either. The dogs learn. They can differentiate.

It is my belief that it is kind of 'horses for courses'. Some dogs are more suited to clicker and some owners/handlers/trainers too. This is what I have found. Brilliant for some people and their dogs. Others, a very poor second to voice. For me, I don't use clicker at all for my dog. BUT (and don't laugh, this is not meant to be derogatory or anything) I do use it when training my cat. Works amazingly with the cat, who requires a quiet, still, less body language environment for training. The dog, however, totally needs the feedback to come from me. It is so much more than just the marker word. It's how it's said, it's how I hold my body and my face when I mark the moment, it's whether I am releasing her from the excercise or merely reinforcing a good behaviour in a chain of behaviours. So it might be 'yes', 'yes', 'YES' - and unconditioned reinforcer (hose or food) on the final 'yes'. My body and tone of voice gives away what's going on to the dog. Show me a clicker where you can change tone like the human voice. You can't. Show me a clicker that exhibits facial expression, which tends to sometimes lack in people who are not using clicker to its best ability by incorporating their body signals too. Not possible. So the refinements of the human voice to me are very important in communicating the conditioned reinforcer to the dog. It's too complex for a mechanical implement the way I use the marker. BUT, like I said, I have seen people use clicker and achieve results they just weren't able to achieve with their voice. Different for different trainers/dogs/other animals. There you go, that's my long winded two cents worth

Can totally recommend Croydon Dog Obedience Club. A good VCA affiliated club with an excellent reputation among triallers and also caters well for non-competitive dog owners. Take a look at ALL clubs in your area to find the one that suits you though.

LP that is wonderful about Leo's retrieving!!! I can't wait to see him in the Open ring as he will probably blitz the field the way he did in Novice. He is such a lovely dog My mindless brag - well, I had a wonderful Saturday with my dog too. She made me so proud training in the ring, using a hose as a reward. I felt her just fly along beside me in the heeling at one point and whatever I asked her to do, she just did it. Sometimes she won't work well and is very distracted but this wasn't one of them. This was probably the best she's ever worked, except for one or two odd occasions when we have been alone at our local park. Makes it all worthwhile when you feel the dog go into sort of 'special drive' and fly. :rolleyes:

Ptolomy, this is REALLY interesting! I am going to make this a start post game and see what happens. I don't care if my girl is excited as all heck and bouncing around at the start post, if I could just get her attention completely on ME! So I am going to do what you did and see what happens :p Thanks a million! We shall see how it goes. I have a lot of trials coming up in October so will be a good test to see how some of these new things I'm initiating help. Cheers

The heartbreaking thing for me is any other place my dog just LOVES heeling and will actually come up and offer heeling position all the time on walks when I just want her to nick off to the end of her lead and have a sniff LOL. But, we are getting there and I feel sure that by next year she will have worked her way right through this glitch now I've figured out pretty well what's going on with her :p Start post games have been great for us too though. Especially lots of food rewards on 'back to the post' and when takes up position. They do make a difference

Hmm... distraction training for who Arya - the handler or the dog ;) :rolleyes: :thumbsup: I should try that one day though - the ball/ crowds and noise would be great practice for heeling and such (and stays too!) He he he he.... LP, NONE of them are nearly old enough or cute enough to attract my attention :p

I agree with you on this Dogdude. The bum bag really easily becomes an unwanted focal point!! Put up with dirty pockets or use a target bag, I say. Target bag works well but so does storing treats in various pockets, or in my case a hose in the back pocket or up the sleeve, down the shirt, up the other sleeve, down the neck... LOL.

Thanks Dogdayz I will look into this and probably go along to watch. Cheers