Arya

For my money (since you can't get miniature GSDs or Mals LOL :D ) I would have a Sheltie from good lines ANY DAY!!! I never thought I'd say that but I know of a lady in Vic who has two and these dogs are tracking champs and also she is a wonderful trainer and these dogs work as good as any bigger breed I have seen. She did say to me you have to get the right lines though so I'd ask around but BOY ARE THEY GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Anyone who has read Scott and Fuller Genetics and the Social Behaviour of the Dog though could tell you that they do seem to be timid in general. So I'd choose carefully. I am encouraging my daughter to get one though.

Thanks Ptolomy :p She is GSD bitch, speyed. She is three and a half. I train her with both food and a piece of hose as she works brilliantly in drive. Heeling in drive with hose is her specialty everywhere else LOL. I don't have to have hose. Can just show her and switch her on with key sound or word. Then outside, have probs toning drive DOWN!!! She will start to forge forward with a hand movement, thinking of her hose. But, she is great because she also works very nicely indeed for food and I'll use food for excercises where I need less drive or for tricks. She will also still heel very nicely indeed for food. Have not trained with a clicker until recently and have been doing this for stays. Boy, it has worked a treat for stays because it is kind of a little independence of me, the approval sound not from me, paird with a favourite suppertime treat. This is the only good thing to come out of the weekend trial - the successful clicker work with stays. Yes, this is my first trialling dog. I have worked with animals all my life and trained my other dogs but never to this level. She is far and away the most difficult dog. Triallers I know well who know her and have been trialling for 25 years plus say so too

Jules I have done this too, in trial to no effect. But outside of that it's terrific for us. We do our training and then 'back to your bag' and off she runs happily to sit down and have a short rest and a drink, whatever. Same when at club. It's a nice way of doing it and a target bag works well for us as long as no other dog tries to get into it LOL :D

i would so, so love to have gone to this! I reckon it would have helped me a lot. Am going to keep an ear out for her next return visit

And really interesting to read people's pre-competing routines that are not that different for Agility, Flyball from Ob, either! All good stuff

Okay I will tell all I started off in Novice at Southern last year. Heeled beautifully would have had a really good pass but failed at the end by sitting on the change of position. Something went wrong... downhill from there. Did FOO nights at KCC worked really well. But in trial ring things have gone from bad to worse. Get to start post, dog will not under any circumstances look at me. Does everything she can to avoid looking and forgets her name, forgets how to sit, heel, EVERYTHING LOL. Not funny really. Really embarrassing considering she is trained up to UD and outside the ring will heel perfectly. Good example this weekend, warmed up on the ground with UD heeling pattern all changes of position etc. We were sitting near our ring, which I'm sure she clocked as our ring as I had been up to check for scratchngs. When she saw the first person go in and the judge begin to call the heeling pattern, she switched off at that point. When the judge was calling the heeling pattern for another dog!!!!!!! Now this judge is a lovely lady and we know her and the dog has no issue with her. It was like 'oh, it's my turn shortly I ain't paying attention any more from now on.' Initially I t hought it was nerves. I have tried leaving her in the car, taking her out, almost over familarising her with the grounds, work extensively in training in trial ring, play in trial ring, serious in trial ring, bring extra people and dogs in trial ring etc. etc. etc. Ad infinitum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In between double trial we were at the dog had a ball. I kept her out of the car and she was perfectly happy. Second trial tricked her a bit. Didn't let her see which ring we were in. WOrked her up to the start post, set off, got less than a quarter into it and then... she realised what we were doing and switched off again. Judges reckon it's me. Others reckon I look and act the same as when training. I am tempted to give up with her but theone thing I have not done is withdrawn her and put her straight back in teh car with no reward, the 'too bad so sad' comment. I thought this could well be a good tack as she does like to be out socialising now where before she was SO nervous. I am wondering if she is really tougher than she looks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good luck BC!!! I am booked to go for both trials and should be a good day. Knox is a good club But not sure if I'm going yet as my girl still has issues in the heeling and don't want to compound the problem. However, I may well turn up, go in the ring for thirty seconds and if she does her usual trick withdraw and march her back to the car LOL. So look out for me and I will look out for you if I go. I have a German Shepherd and she heels lovely outside ring. I am in CCD. Good luck anyway!!!

Hey mutchumbo, don't know if this comment will help at all but if you are training him for tracking, what method are you using? You might find a different method increases the value of actually tracking and the dog concentrates on the job in hand more, thus forgetting about perving. I have a dog that is very easily distracted in every other facet of her training but when it comes to scent discrimination or tracking she is EXCELLENT. The tracking method I have just been using to teach her is one I know seems to be out of fashion at the moment and don't believe it has ever really been popular in Sch. but I have been working on food in each footstep. This has been brilliant with my dog. She works in areas that horses train (and eliminate!) on, and also rabbits, wallabies etc. Yet she keeps her nose well to the ground, is developing a good deep nose and so far (touch wood) has not lost focus the way she does in Ob work. Anyway my two cents just an amateur suggestion would be to look at the method used to train if that's the work you are doing and see if you can go back a few steps and tweak it. Hope you get something out of my post

I've heard this before... it's the biggest load of old cobblers and I nearly fell over laughing when I heard it. Perhaps the person who first made that up only had five neurons

Tadpole sounds like you've got things working well for you sorry you didn't q that sounded like bad luck!!! I love your piccie as well, swimming with a stick Ness and Ptolomy I am going to try this! This could maybe work for me as I've not tried it before. Love the expression too bad so sad When my dog won't work, I mean she won't work CCD in the ring STILL after almost a year bombs out on the heeling but in training and just outside the ring can do UD. But loves to go. It's like a party for her seeing everyone she knows. Seems to be part of the problem I think. Too much fun outside the ring!!!

Oh no, Obedience, Agility etc. and Schutzhund too! I do Ob myself but it's all interesting ;) I have to say I've noticed too when watching Schutzhund trials how calm and quiet the dogs often are waiting in the cars for their turns. It's all good and very interesting Ness and Ptolomy, if your dog's work is really really off and has been fine five minutes beforehand and it's something they know like the back of their paw and there is not a really good reason for poor behaviour cos the dog is happy before and after, keen to be at the trial/event and see people, do you still reward when you get back to the car? If the dog wants to be with you a lot, do you tell them they didn't do so well and make them wait? Just wondering what is best. This is not something I've tried... so I guess I was wrong when I said I'd tried everything LOL.

Hi everyone, I was just curious, what do others find works best for them with their dog when they go to a trial? Do you: Take your dog out of the car as soon as you get there and set up on the ground near your ring, keeping the dog out all the time? Take your dog out, toilet him, put him back in the car until a few minutes before your turn? Go early and keep your dog out for ages to acclimatise to the ground and then put away a little while before the start? Set up a crate on the ground? Stake out? Afterwards do you: Put dog away between run through and stays? Put dog away immediately after finish? Keep dog out after you've finished? Just curious as to what people have found does and does not work for their individual dogs, and what has been successful or failure over the years. Me, nothing works really. I've tried everything. ;) But interested to see what other people do!

I definitely think some of the more experienced sch. DOLers like Jeff might have much better advice than me!!! Hopefully they will come in and help you.

i have the ivan balabanov dvds that teaches tracking drive focous grip ect.. but she has drive for me i need her to transfer it to some thing elese and thank you for that advice i will try it. do you have any more? HELP K9 LOL Okay, when you say she has drive for you, do you mean you can get her fired up and she goes your arm etc. ? If you are saying this, you need to transfer that onto the article. I know, easy to say hard to do but in my time with my dog I have gone from balls to tugs to hoses. You can do this by removing the prey object altogether for a while. OBVIOUSLY you can't do that with yourself!!! Is that what you mean? My only other advice would be to make the hose, if you swap to hose, or small bite roll or whatever, very high value by only allowing play when you play with it. I don't quite understand what you mean. To 'make drive' you move the object very quickly side to side or away from the animal, never towards it. You then let the animal have it after they have performed something they know like 'sit'. Pretty simple but you gradually build on this. maybe you just haven't found the right prey item to build drive. Think outside the square a bit. You can use more than one for different situations I've found too. To build drive in the recall forget about e-collars LOL. The best way I've found is with a bite roll. So I use a bite roll specifically for the recall. I don't know if any of this is helping you at all!!! I think it might come down to the prey item with you. But crating... nope, I wouldn't do it. For IPO you still want a hugely strong bond with your dog. You create this by working/playing together. Crating works to a degree, I believe, but I also believe that if you need to work on bond strengthening, retreival/recall games are the way to go. They build drive, they build the bond. Use your prey item during them and the drive should build. Well, that's been my experience with my dog and others I've seen and suggested to. Where are you situated? K9 could help you A guy called Mark Murray in Vic.

I have two suggestions here. One is, and I don't know where on earth you could get it but Kelpie-i might know as I heard her mention it at a lecture once. Apparently there is a video somewhere of how to do schutzhund with food as the reward and it's really good. I'd like to see that as I can't imagine it, food being the end of the predatory drive sequence but if your dog turns out to have below the necessary prey drive it might be an avenue to look into. To build drive, I wouldn't bother to crate if it hasn't shown any help. Abandon it. Try something else. My suggestion (and yes, I have become a 'hoseaholic' lately LOL) is to get a thirty centimetre long piece of hose - two actually - and work on conditioning the dog to hose. Then what you can do is tuck the hose along your forearm and if the dog is focussed on your forearm then you have the hose there, ready. Now, to stop the dog jumping and biting your arm using this you put it under your left arm but put your right, fingers spread, in front of the dog between the dog and the hose under your forearm. This does work. I've done this with great success and boy the drive I've been getting out of my dog lately has been exceptional. I have too much a lot of the time and the dog surges too far forward. Have you heard of the Leerburg DVD Training Drive, Focus and Grip? This is a goody for showing how to build drive with Bernhard Flinks imho. It helped me a lot anyway. If you are in NSW, K9 Force is the man to see of course Hope this little bit of info from a novice Drive fan helps!

Erny I believe a truly good dog trainer looks to all methods of training and chooses appropriate for the dog, or multiple methods for the dog, to get the best results. This speaks volumes about you imho and just ignore those MISGUIDED FOOLS who take on some sort of 'holy war' against anyone who dares use something other than purely positive. These people waste their time imho and really really make me angry. How many poor dogs have missed out on having problems solved simply and well because of these fools? And then they attack people like you in a cowardly and anonymous way. God it makes me so angry :rolleyes: Just ignore them and remember, it's a reflection on their stupid outlook on life. Everyone here has a hell of a lot of respect for you!!!

Okay, behaviourists will have better suggestions (Erny?) but don't worry about the Mynahs, they are a plague and annoying birds LOL. BUT, I would try to condition your weim onto something else that he values so much you can use it in front of the tree. It's a bit of a long shot but it works with my girl, who hates magpies and will go them no matter what. I know you use ball but how about ball on a rope or string right in front of the tree? If he likes it, how about getting one of those Aussie Dog things, I think they are a ball you tie to the tree and the dogs play iwth them when you are not home. THey are specially designed for this. Called home alone ball or something. Then his focus will go off the mynahs and onto his toy that is attached to the tree if you can up the toy's value sufficiently. and maybe all the activity would keep the pesky mynahs away too??? That's just a left of centre idea that I can think of, without resorting to more aversive techniques like collars etc.

Is it too late to teach her stuff NO WAY!!! She is giving you her paw because she is unsure of what you want. It's called 'superstitious behaviour' by some. She will pull something out to try to get a reward. As others have said, just ignore. But, use it as a key to tell you if she's understanding what you want when you are teaching her something else. If she gives you her paw when teaching something new, take a step back and have a look at where the confusion lies. But with the paw, if she likes this why not expand on it? Get her to wave. Get her to shake with both paws and then work on getting her to target your feet with her paws. Then gradually turn around. Soon you'll have her marching. You can teach an older dog most things like that ;) BTW, a little OT did anyone see that Mythbusters program the other night on SBS, 'You can't teach an old dog new tricks'? It was FAB. They taught two Malamutes from a shelter sit, stay, drop etc. Then they had this fabulous guard dog they were trying to get around. Then they had a police man trailling dog they were trying to throw off the scent. Great fun For sure they proved you can teach an old dog new tricks though for anyone who thought you couldn't.

I can't speak at all about herding but as far as other disciplines go I don't believe you can have too many fingers in the pie at all. You are only limited by your time and the standard of excellence which you wish to achieve, I think For example, I do obedience, tricks and tracking with my dog. They all seem to compliment each other and actually help each other in some way. Since I started Tracking (and I'm only just realising this now) I see an improvement in confidence in my girl in Obedience. Someone on DOL suggested I take up Agility for this purpose and I just haven't had time with all the other stuff I train because I demand a very high standard from my dog in each sport and just not enough time to add Agility to that and do them all justice but the Tracking seems to be having the same effect. Also, I have at times taken methods i use from tricks training across to Obedience to get something just perfect the way I want it. I can't recommend doing several sports highly enough. It's all good!!! The dogs love the variety too. Also, I have heard people say you shouldn't teach higher in Ob than your dog's level they are competing at. I believe this is a load of codswallop. What better way to bore the dog than stick to CCD or Novice? LOL. Do the lot and have fun is my motto.

I would so love to have seen this!!! Living in Vic makes it a bit hard though LOL. Does anyone know if something similar is held in Vic? It must have been a great day to watch!

My advice would be to take the ball off him at all times except for when he can play with YOU ONLY. The ball fun comes from you only. If necessary do it in the back yard. Don't let him play with other dogs in the park for a while. Dogs play too well with each other and its hard to compete with that! Just make it all you and the dog. And you start the game, then let him keep the ball and get another one so that you have two. You can exchange balls. Do lots of recall games. You throw one, then get him to come back by calling him. When he comes, as he gets close, throw the second one so he drops one and then races out to the other. Back forth back forth. He is winning all the time because he has the ball all the time... but so do you if you have two! The recall strengthens with the dog's desire to come back and play with you. You finish the game a long time before he is pooped and ready to stop. he has to still be desperately wanting to play. You take the balls and stick them in your pockets, whatever, but on your person. They are YOUR TROPHIES not his. But you exchange them for a piece of food, so he gets something for giving them back. Work with him. I'd cut out all play with other dogs during these games and if he adores the GSD, ban playing with the GSD for a while. You are the fun source, pack leader, centre of the universe he revolves around. if you aren't he'll keep nicking off LOL. Good luck! That's my advice anyway. It worked a treat with my dog and I've seen it huge success with other dogs too. But you have to forget play iwth other dogs til you are the best in the world and the dog will return to you every time over playing with another dog.

I use luring to teach in the initial stages and prefer it to anything else for it is a KIND method. As others have said, it doesn't suit all dogs and it does have its limitations if not used correctly and the handler's timing is wrong. But luring is absolutely number one in my book for trick teaching, where a continuous schedule of reinforcement is used so extensively. But anyone using luring for obedience I reckon, just personally, that they should be carefully instructed on the schedules of reinforcement and how to implement them first, so they can get out of continuous at the right time. Much better than compulsion for most dogs but yep, doesn't suit all dogs.

Wow that is a bad story Nytewynd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why push a dog and ruin him in the process??? And at six months old!!!!!How awful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! From what you mention, I know who you are referring to.

Ayra there is a schutzhund club in cranbourne, i would be careful of going there, i have been there and the trainer ruined my dog, be careful of the bite work if your dog is slightly unstable with this trainer. Only saying this as if you know Andrew Mcdonald you must be down that way, Andrew is an ex MP that is probably where he got the rubber hose from. Nytewynd, I am pretty sure I know where you mean!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't worry, nobody touches my dog unless I have complete confidence in them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yep Andrew ex MP.

I am south east of Melbourne and yep, there are three in my vague area, all about just over hour's drive I shall look for this book on Amazon