Arya

After all GSD is the most popular breed in Australia, rottie is another VERY popular breed. Where are they? certainly not at the IPO clubs.... Do breeders encourage, ohhh let me word it differently, do breeders inform buyers of such clubs? I somehow doubt it... From what I understand there has been great debate over a long period of time with ANKC affiliated clubs such as GSDCA recognising Sch. To some in GSDCA Sch. is a dirty word. To others, like myself, it is not. It is a wonderful sport. I just get very very sad indeed at the rubbish and misunderstandings that goes on about Sch. I think Nekhbet said it all, though. BTW, does everyone know that a woman from Australia has recently trialled her amazing GSD in Sch trials over in Germany and done very creditably indeed. That's a WOMAN!!!!!!!!! It's not just a sport for men at all

Okay, through the job I used to have I know a bit about this. Plus a person in the family who studied genetics at uni. I disagree totally that you cannot breed for drive and it certainly isn't all hit and miss, though failures do occur depending on dominant genes. You can breed for lots of traits - comes down to a single gene pair often. Rogue ones creep in of course... we see this all the time. You breed for one thing and good old Darwinian theory throws another curve ball at us in an effort to improve the species. For anyone who is truly interested in this, I recommend reading the seminal study on dogs by Scott and Fuller - Genetics and the Social Behavior of the Dog. Out of print now but available on EBay. A fifteen year study, meticulously done, that gives us the most info on critical periods of development in dogs but also, lots of other stuff like genetic traits. A heavy read, boring at times, but well worth it. I believe if you take two excellent Obedience/Agility/Sch. dogs - whatever you are looking for, and breed them, your chances of producing through the right genetic combination, similar dogs, are very very high indeed. However, there will be other traits appear in the litter, some good, some bad, due to natural selection. Intelligence is debateable. I believe in it in dogs - examples of higher order thinking. That's intelligence. Sometimes is a disadvantage in the trial ring lol. Dogdude, I do however agree with you about drive/motivation over intelligence. This is often mistaken for intelligence. Nerve - so critical in working dogs in any field. These can all be bred for. Why do you think it can't be accurately bred for? PS - the police do like to source from same places, as do military. I know of someone who recently had his Mal tested by Air Force so his traits could be used in their breeding program. Why would they bother to go around and do this if you couldn't accurately breed for desirable traits in working dogs? JMHO

No worries Happy to help. I do a lot of tracking on my own! It depends on what method you're using to teach but I use footstep and food and you can lay most of the tracks yourself with food or toy reward at end too. Remember that personal scent is only one initial part of tracking and ground scent will still work, no matter whether you or some other lays the track. So try laying your own tracks. I love getting out there and track laying and your dog will love the independence of 'being in charge' on the track and will help with mental exercise and teach concentration. You could walk her a bit now at her age, I'm sure. I'd do it on a pinch collar if she's a puller and goes too fast. Again, check out Leerburg website. Tug work is brilliant. Do you use tug or toy with your obedience? Keep it just for reward and it will help. She is only young and will be young in the mind still, so don't worry if she's nutso. I reckon learn to love it ROTFL. To be honest, don't be disappointed if 'calm on command' and 'reward for calm' doesn't work well at this stage with a high drive dog. Use your prey items as the key to controlling your dog. Raise their value so high the dog will do anything to get them. As you work with her and she becomes more bonded to you as she gets older and learns to control her own drives through work, you will see her start to listen and settle down and not be so full on at inappropriate times of the day when you're trying to sleep lol!

Hi Nekhbet! Hastings Dog Obedience Club should be able to help you there. There is a guy there called Ian Gunst who builds them but he is such a helpful person I'm sure he'd be able to help with plans/advice. He even travels out to the country once a month to help a small club get their team started. He's very keen on it. Give Hastings Club a call. Sorry don't have their number but it's bound to be on the net.

Oh good luck Freida, have a WONDERFUL time this afternoon Coolies can compete in Ob. I have friend with a lovely little Coolie just got her CCD. I love to see them all out there, purebreeds and xbreeds alike in Obedience. But Agility great fun too!

Oh wow, so many great results for DOLers at the moment YAY!!! Congrates to Ptolomy on Bean's title and to FHR for your great win And Lablover and Belijae too Helen good luck with the pups must be very exciting time - just in time for xmas will they be? Lovely! Now, the hugest hugest congrats to Prodigybxr on a really outstanding effort to get that title and HIGH IN TRIAL under really stinking, stinking conditions, especially for a pug. She sat her stays in heat and revolting amount of little flies that were the undoing of many dogs, including mine. She was a real champ. It was so well deserved. And she looks so cute and happy sitting up there with her haul. AND LEO!!!!!!!!!!! YAY, he got his first Open pass too in the afternoon in the same hot, tiring conditions, coming in second to one of the best triallers in the country. YAY LEO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Superdog And as for my girl, well we went down in both sit stays but there was no way I was disappointed about this because I GOT A GIRL WHO HEELED!!!!!!!!! YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is time three using my new method with food before the trial and stuff. In the am I got smart and threw the dumbell too far and it hit the fence, otherwise she would have completed all the ringwork with good passes for each exercise. In the PM trial I was just sure it was too much for her and she'd bomb out. She started a bit distracted and blew a sit and a drop and for some reason I thought we'd failed the heeling so I thought 'bugger it' and went all out and instead of dropping away from me as she has all year, I had a girl who came up to me and WORKED! YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And she passed all the ringwork! That is what it is all about for me. We can get the stays but that heeling hoodoo has killed me all year. So... there were some lovely successes at Southern yesterday for a few of us and some others did beautiful workouts in spite of the heat. One person got his OC on the day too which was great YAY

JeffnCel have you had a high drive dog like this before? This may sound no comfort whatsoever to you at the moment but as far as I'm concerned that is YIPPEEE! A hyperactive ADHD type dog is the one to have every time expecially if you're going to do IPO. For my money, I'd do a lot more mental stimulation rather than just exercise daily. Get hold of some DVDs like the Leerburg Training Grip Drive and Focus and do some work every day. Every single day. Obedience every single day. Begin tracking work and do several times a week. Hey, if she gets you up early that's perfect for tracking LOL. Running will not wear her out enough mentally. Personally, and others hopefully will come in with comments here, you need to do more to satisfy her drive, even at this age. Tug games, retrieval games, roughouse around stuff. Running won't do this properly. My dog goes a bit nutso if we don't get out there with our hoses, even if she has a good run. And she isn't even what anyone would really class as high drive. Anyway, see what others say but I'd work her more. I know you have to be careful as she's growing and only 8 1/2 months but she can learn tracking now easily and could started this lot younger, though you may have already. Same with lots of Ob work. This will all be a fabulous foundation before she is old enough, mature enough to start fair dinkum character work. See what other Sch. people say. That's my non-Sch (but love it) two cents' worth. Hope helps :D

I use lots of different to keep things high value. Cheese, kabana, frankfurts, whatever I can in moderation. Those cool treats are good but not easy to find where I live. Liver is a favourite but gut problems afterwards too LOL. My dog's faves are: KANGA BANGAS - the human grade kangaroo sausages from the supermarket. They are better health-wise than regular snags too. They have less fat, more protein, less spices I notice. All these things have onion powder in them which we have to be careful with. SPAM - yep, not the healthiest, full of fat and salt but has the great advantage of being very soft and easy for her to swallow and she loves it because it's full of fat and salt. So a treat for trial days especially. Better than devon cut up I think anyway - less onion powder and in a tin so less preservatives. Try making your own little mince balls too with good quality people mince (that's beef, not actual PEOPLE LOL). You can microwave them until they're rubbery. I don't do it often but the dog loves it

Hey arya - your post is soo similar to mine :cool: Does that mean that we are on the right track? Or both heading down the wrong path together??? :rofl: Hey LP, if Tess and I are heading down the same path as you and Leo I'd be over the moon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

Great topic! Love everyone's input My strengths: Endless, endless patience (funny, it happens in no other area of my life LOL) The ability to listen, watch and learn from others. The ability to think outside the square when confronted with problems. An understanding that every dog is different and need to keep an open mind when training. The ability to take criticism without taking offence. Most of all, the understanding that you can spend your whole life with dogs/animals and learn something new every day!!!!!!!!!!!!! Weaknesses: Impatience with myself! Always wanting to leap ahead with training. Getting depressed when things don't work out the way they do in training (STUPID!!!) Being an airhead and missing things I'm doing wrong in training until later. Heaps of others too embarrassing to list LOL. Best thing I've learnt is how generous dog people are about sharing their knowledge and best thing is how many friends I've made!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Perry's Mum, have a look at some of K9s advice throughout this site. One thing I wouldn't be doing is letting anyone else play ball with her. You be the ball player - toy player. If she only likes ball try a ball on a string. You can put it further on a rope and drag it along the ground. You want the dog to be coming in to you all the time wherever possible. Don't throw too far away if she doesn't rocket back to you with it. But when others play ball with her it has the potential to diminish the bond you are building with her. Look, this is all advice from lots of people and ultimately you will know what works best with your dog and pick out what works best but just thought I'd throw this into the mix because I would never ever let anyone else play hose with my dog, or any other toy for that matter. I am queen of the good things. It's a heirarchy and bonding thing.

GO LEO! What a great team you are LP and Leo and you're sure to go great this Sat. Yep, Glorybea is in Southern too Dogdude. I am not pinning my hopes on too much as my girl has gone troppo in the ring I don't know why. But, I will follow the routine and feeding routine and little tricks I used at Eastern EXACTLY and we got a pass last time so at very least, it will be a test to see if those left of centre tricks really worked or if it was a fluke. And we're still having fun with those post games too which have made the post a great place to be Let's hope all DOLers do great at Southern. At very least it is now not going to be a hot day, so will be a great day out to catch up with everyone

Perry's Mum, it is excellent that your dog is interacting well with you at the dog club. Interacting with YOU rather than just the other dogs or the sheep, which was what I was getting at in the last mail LOL. If she isn't keen in the back yard and yet keen outside it certainly is a strange one. Let's know what happens in the back yard this time. It is a bit weird as it would usually be the other way around, good attention in back yard but wanting to interact with other things/dogs etc outside. Don't foret though, the toys need to belong to YOU. This is a big key in getting them to see you as the funmeister. How about trying starting afresh with new and different toys in the back yard? Just another thought

My advice to you would be to definitely go and see a behaviourist. K9 or even Dr Robert Holmes, who comes to Sydney to consult too I believe. Don't be tempted to just go to the vet and get ACP tablets. I can tell you as a former vet nurse for 15 years that they will only work when they are given, that the dog still has the fear and sometimes, over time that fear is exacerbated by also feeling woozy when given ACP at times of loud noise. I've heard those desensitisation CDs are very good but you need prof advice before he has a serious accident. I remember 2 dogs at work that wen thru plate glass window cos of thunder and one almost bled to death. Good luck, a tricky problem!

Bridgie Cat, that is a beautiful, beautiful photo. You must be so proud! What a lovely dog!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am madly encouraging my daughter to get a Sheltie. I think they are one of the best small working dogs around. I love them Congratulations again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Perry's Mum, I am so with Erny on her comments!!!!!!!!!!!!!! One thing I can say and don't know if someone else has said it here as I haven't had time to read all the posts, is that as far as I am concerned, no toy is my dog's toy. That is it. It is not cruel, it is the law of the pack. All toys are mine, all food is mine, all fun comes from me, all games come from me, all in life that is good comes from me. My dog does have her own toys and so does my cat, they just don't know it. The dog knows not to touch the cat's toys when they are lying around and never does. Why? Because in her mind they are not the cat's toys, they are mine and I allow only the cat to play with them and only the dog to play with my toys I say she can. These rules may seem harsh but as Erny pointed out, you can't think anthropomorphic with a dog. It is security and stability for the dog which equals happiness for the dog. Now anyone who knows me and my dog knows that she can be a bugger and take a lend of me at the most inappropriate times and I am often called too soft with her, so I'm not saying I'm perfect by a long shot BUT, my advice to you would be to remove all toys from the garden. Start again. Start really nice. Lots of recall games with two balls or two hoses or two toys, whatever. You bring em out, you take em away again at the end. You can throw both as Erny said or you can go on an 'exchange program' where you swap the toy trophy for a bit of high value food. Then pack all away and go inside long before doggo wants to stop. Make yourself the 'fun centre' of the universe. Go for long walks together. Happy retrieval games galore. If Perry still doesn't want to play at all I definitely think a trip to the vet is in order. One other advice is, if Perry is thrilled to play at dog school and ignores you to be honest, forget about Perry needing to have a good time for a while at dog school. She's not a person, she's a dog. Take her out of herding school until she sees you as more fun than any other thing, dog school, other dogs, whatever. It's the kindest way in the long run. She needs you as her rock and fun thing in life more than dog herding school. Then when you have got her right with you in a few weeks, return to dog herding school If dog herding school is higher value than you, that is a problem (not saying it is, it's just something for you to think about)Hope this helps but as Erny says, people can only give you sort of qualified bits of advice as they aren't seeing you and the dog and something else might be going on. Good luck!

Deelee, this is great that the problem is disappearing so quickly, good on you!!! Dogs and kids can be hard to fix sometimes so you must be really pleased. Rachelle, I can see how your method works, it's just that I think if you invite the dog up and then he gets the correction there is a break of trust/bond between you and the dog. Call me left of centre, call me weird, but this is the way I train and how I see it. I see what you say that the dog doesn't know the correction comes from you and I see how this could work but the fact that you invite the dog and then the correction happens pairs a reward(the invitation from Alpha) with something that is an aversive - doesn't matter whether you directly do it or not. Not something I'd ever do but I do see how the method can work - and work quickly if someone is prepared to use it. It's like some other things. I dont' agree with them but if they work for other people all good and we can learn from them I do agree sixty kilo dog jumping on small person has to be addressed quickly but stimulous control, like the sit beforehand works better imho. It's not a bandaid fix, it's an opportunity for the dog to win. I work with big dogs, have shepherd, have a buggered wrist so can't afford to have my dog out of control when working with her, but we get by happily. All good!!!!

I agree with Tepferhund here about the inviting to jump up and then correction. HUGE HUGE NO-NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh God, don't ever do that!!!!!!!!!!! Okay, the foot on the leash thing is one method I have seen of teaching the drop but goodness me, why would anyone INVITE a dog to commit an undesirable act, only to punish it??? I don't care what anyone else says, if your dog is jumping up on you it's a SYMPTOM of an overall problem of pack order and dominance. Get the other stuff right (as others have suggested, using NILIF is a very nice way to do it) and the jumping won't be an issue. One 'don't do that' from a true pack leader and the dog won't do it. If the envelope is pushed by the dog then a quick growl and correction should be all it takes if other stuff is in place correctly. BUT, if you say nope, you stay down there most of the time but when I say up you come, you are ALLOWED AT MY DISCRETION TO TEMPORARILY RAISE YOUR STATUS watch them lap it up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's as good as a food reward. At the end of an exercise that has been done well for my dog it's 'Yay, come on up!!!!! or 'Yay, have a tug on that hose and let me pull you right up onto my chest!!!!!!!!!!!. Then back to work and the enthusiasm to do what you want from the dog is huge. Really, it boils down to common sense and how you apply it. A ridiculous one I have heard is to hit the dog on the head with something like a scone tray when they jump up. Sorry, but that was seriously told to me in a lecture once. I nearly died.

And Bridgie Cat, not to mention you getting a pass in that appalling weather and your title too!!! WOOHOO! Some great results for a couple of DOLers this cup weekend. Who needs a win at the races.

YAY OSCAR, YAAAY DOGDUDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Huge, huge congratulations. I was wondering how you were getting on yesterday. What a FANTASTIC debut and totally totally well deserved. He is a fantastic dog and huge props to you for doing that. Getting high in trial with that helluva score at his first trial. I think that deserves a big from all of us. Seriously, that was brilliant. PRODIGYBXR, my thoughts go out to you too and I really feel for you that that happened. You are such a fantastic trainer to have your dog work the way you do and it would be hard for your poor little one after what happened at Knox. Better luck next time... you know how many times I had to say that to myself LOL. Hope to see you both at Southern!!! Wish I could have been there yesterday

Okay Zelahi, love your Avatar LOL. What would House say about this :rolleyes: Seriously though, are you a member of Geelong Dog Ob Club? I would contact them if not. I am not a fan of harnesses as they either actually encourage the dog to pull imho, or the no-pull one can pinch under their arm nastily if not fitted correctly. I think you are totally right in looking for a couple of one on one lessons. Geelong Club might be able to put you on to someone too. Daggles, I agree about what you were told about the Infin8 BUT... who said you 'can't use it'? I hope it wasn't the Geelong Branch of GSDCV!!!! Wouldn't shock me if it was though... Hey, also if you don't mind heading over to Diggers Rest, contact Kelpie-i - brilliant

Okay, I have used and tried em all LOL. I like the infin8 better than regular black dog halti. however, in saying this I agree with Poodlefan and wouldn't use. I feel also that unless you are really skilled, a head collar is just a restraint mechanism and for most people, just restrains the dog and as soon as it's removed the dog reverts to its old behaviour. In saying this I am EXTREMELY SYMPATHETIC to your situation Daggles and agree with Erny - go back to the trainer and have a chat. Sadly, many trainers aren't flexible. I will state here that I would prefer a pinch collar any day over a head collar for a dog that pulls to that extent - problem quickly solved when used correctly and the dog LEARNS (please....don't all shoot me LOL!). BUT, I can see that a headcollar is of great benefit to some and if you can't hold on to your dog, hey, it will give you confidence to work in class until you can!!!!! Really, I think the best for you Daggles might be a one-on-one with a sympathetic trainer who is open to all types of equipment, including head collars, to help your dog overcome the problem in a nice way. Like everyone, you want your dog to happily and willingly see you as the centre of attention and not want to go madly pulling away in class, and a one on one lesson or two might put you on the right path and be worth the money and help you enjoy your classes more. And when you get it right you'll be able to slip the 8 part of the infin8 and just use a flat collar :rolleyes: Let us know how you go.

Spanner, I have heard also that holding the paws when they do this and gently squeezing (not hurt, just hold so they lose control and can't get down and YOU have control) works too. However, you may already realise that the jumping is just a symptom of the overall opinion he has of you and the kids, which is he doesn't see you as strong leader yet. he is testing out how far up the pack order he can move and if he can take charge. Take a look at the NILIF program for dogs. Do a search on the web for it and you will find it. Works well. Then, I'll tell you what ONCE YOU HAVE HIM AS YOU WANT HIM and not before or you will reintroduce pack order issues, try using jumping up as a reward. Many people hate their dogs jumping up on them and me too unless I invite my dog to. My dog never jumps up on me, ever. This is funny as I have the prob where she tries it on with other people and have to do something like ask for a sit from her before people pat her (you can try this too, to control the jumping). But as a reward, my dog is invited to jump up to my chest. It is a big treat for her after performing an excercise well or when playing. I'm not of the belief your dog should never jump on you. BUT in your case yes, it would be really good to stop it right away.

Inspector Rex, I know there is a very good guy called Paul Mcphail (spelling?) somewhere in East Gippsland I think. I think if you contact Bairnsdale dog obedience they might have a contact for him, or someone here would? Rachelle, I too know Kelpie-i does herding clinics and she is over Diggers Rest way, not that far from Werribee really!!! Her clinics are extremely good and popular too from what I've heard

I stop with my left foot first ie left foot stops & right foot comes up to it. Always have, don't know why the chief instructor at my old club was a footwork Nazi & drilled stuff into us so I have pretty good footwork (pity I have no sense of balance anymore & can't walk staight anymore ), but that's the way I do my halts. Also rather than taking a large last step I take a smaller step, lets the dog know that something (& not fast pace :D ) is coming. But seriously, I think the most important thing is consistency, not just what foot you stop on . Wish I was a footwork Nazi, would solve quite a few of my problems! I'm working on becoming one So another person who stops on the left and brings right foot up. I was trying it this afternoon. Its quite hard to swap over and get right. My friend's principle is that if the dog is in correct heel position, they should stop neater and quicker if you stop on the left leg. I see you use a small step too Mrs D so your sits must look pretty sharp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am thinking of swapping over to speed up my girl's sits as she holds good heel position. Interesting about the smaller step. My GSD girl seems to need a big one to have time to sit. Wonder if its cos she's bigger dog or because she's not sharp enough at it yet. SHELLEY, I know it is annoying but that jumping up nipping at your arm etc. you can get to work for you in the end. When my dog has done this in the past I don't really reprimand or push her down, just put the other hand up in the way of your arm or mix up your pace. You have to be careful. Look at it from the dog's pov. You are having a good time, going hyper with your pack leader and then you get reprimanded for being over enthusiastic and it kills your drive and desire to be close to handler and you hang back a bit or hang away a bit or look away when heeling. If I were you, when your dog leaps up and nips and hypes out, drive forward, use encouraging 'heel Anzac, good dog, let's heel!' Talk to the dog, distract from the nipping and use that drive. My opinion and I'm sure others will disagree is not to squash that drive, just redirect it back into good, fast, enthusiastic heeling with patience. Just my opinion but something to think about and something that works for me.