Arya

Country Joe, I just had a thought and wondered why I didn't think of this before. When teaching this way indoors, the sitting in a chair is probably quite important. If you're sitting in a chair to the dog, you must appear to be less likely to run off with the object so they may be more willing to give it up. I never thought of this. Learn lots from different people's posts on this forum!!!

Okay, it takes time. It is excellent that he will rush off after the second ball. How close does he come to you before dropping the first ball or hurling it at you? When you say he hurls it at you, does it land in front of you? I seem to remember reading that he hit your other half with a stick or something! Okay, if so at least he is bringing it back that close and isn't hanging on to it for grim death, which my dog originally did. No way was she going to give up her trophy LOL! Now if he is dropping it near you or hurling it to you, can you pick it up without him rushing to grab it back? If so, that's great. If not, ignore and just work with the second one, swapping turn and turn about with the balls. As I said in my last post, work and work to get closer and closer by encouraging him back to you with lots of movement, shouting cheering, whatever to indicate it's part of the 'game'. You go towards him and he goes towards you. Try to get him to drop it close to, or at your feet. Then throw the second one. If you think about it, you have the powerful reward in your hand - the second ball. The trick is to work towards getting your dog to do what you want with the first ball to get the reward of the chase with the second ball. Try to think left of field about it when you're out there with him. Play around with different behaviours and watch him carefully. Is he fielding the ball like K9 said? Is he reluctant on the way back? Is he trying to grab both balls at once and hog the game (I had that one too!!!)Now also, you can instil in him that the ball throw is the reward by using it as a reward in obedience work. Are you doing this? Do you do any obedience work? Try holding the ball in your left hand and getting him to heel alongside you with it. When he does two or three steps in the correct position, reward him by using a key word like 'Yes!' or 'Alright!' and then throw the ball. The throw is the reward. The same with the drop. Ask him to drop. The second he does it properly, throw the ball. That is his reward. With practice, as he comes to control himself and his drive more, and realise that the ball throw is a reward, he will be more keen to return the first ball better to you when playing retrieve. It is all interlinked, the whole lot of it. You have to look at the big picture. Finally (phew, what a long-winded post I've written!). Work inside with a dumbell as I said in one of my earlier posts. Sit on the couch with some treats and work on 'take', 'hold', 'give' with it. Reward him on the 'give'. You may find he sees this as a completely different exercise and will always give you a dumbell back. If you don't work with a dumbell at all, choose a toy and don't play with it outside in the beginning, just when doing that exercise. Then try what K9 said about putting the toy out and asking him to bring it back, minus the throw. IMHO, the throw is the key to teaching your dog everything by the sound of it. What do others think? Don't be too disheartened! Someone else on the forum was disappointed cos their dog wouldn't chase any toys or anything at all! But they're all different.

Brooke, did you try having more than one ball/toy as I suggested? Did he just run out, grab the one you threw and then refuse to come back for the next one or what? If you don't mind looking a bit silly if anyone is watching, try acting hugely animated when he gets the ball and picks it up. Shout encouragement to him, wave your arms around, toss another ball up and down in the air and then run towards him with it. Run PAST him and then throw the second ball. He will chase it, you go back and pick up the first ball. Work in a roundabout way so that gradually, you both end up meeting after he chases and collects the ball. He comes a little way to you, you come a little way to him, give on both sides in the game until he is running towards you and dumping the first ball at your feet, waiting for you to throw the second ball. Or you could offer him 'pay' as K9 said in the form of some prized food (train when he is hungry, before dinner) but if he doesn't want it fine, I would not make an issue of trying to get the prize (ball)off him. Just some more ideas. On the plus side, it sounds like you have a dog who loves to chase so much that if you could get it under control, you'd easily be able to have him training in drive and being a fantastic worker If he doesn't want to run out and retrieve the way K9 suggested, he might well start doing this after working with more than one ball for a while. Our shepherds are too clever, that's the problem LOL. Keep letting us know how he is going!

These are wonderful photos :D Yes, the dog shouldn't be coming off the top of the A frame like that but I've seen them do it in agility when they aren't supposed to and get carried away too. The expression on the dog's face is a beauty. He's obviously having a ball! I think it's a shame that people don't understand that Schutzhund, just like any area of dogs, has good and bad trainers and competitors. The good ones are truly brilliant and their dogs stunning - and bombproof in the general community! There's a lot of ignorance out there about it.

Forgot to mention, I also do what I was told 'not' to do which is make dumbell fun too. Otherwise dog won't work with dumbell and just with toys - cos dumbell can be just seen as work. Dumbell comes out to the park and is mixed in with other games in our house. I've never had her run off with it, either, which was why I was always told to keep it separate. But she didn't initially like to retrieve it. So watch out for that problem if you're doing dumbell.

My suggestions:- I agree with Brock. Teach the actual 'give' as a separate exercise. Use something other than a toy or stick. Use a dumbell. Sit in the lounge in the ad breaks when you're watching tv, have some treats. Go 'take', 'hold', 'give' in that order, then reward on the 'give'. That's what I was taught and boy, it works well. My dog saw the dumbell as separate and NEVER tried to hold onto it even though she wouldn't hand back toys in the park. Interestingly, I had the identical problem from a pup with toys and balls and you can get over it . I posted elsewhere a method of fixing this that was taught to me by a wonderful trainer down here in Vic. Get two or three balls, toys, whatever you are throwing in the park. When he comes back, you 'covet' the one you are holding because in his mind, yours will always be better than his. Ignore his. Then restart the game with yours. Try running backwards as he approaches with the ball, before he drops the ball. Don't make it a conflict situation or show tension, keep it super fun. Share the toys but you are still in charge by starting the game always, not him. You end the game before he wants to, so you are in charge again. This worked so well with my GSD bitch that now she races up with the ball in her mouth and gives it to me (most times!!!) and we just can play with one ball or any other item she chooses. Good luck, one of the suggestions people have put here will surely work for you :D I loved K9s thoughts, makes you look at what is happening when you are throwing differently.

Shoemonster, what about if you start asking the dog to do a couple of things and then reward, rather than just one exercise. Build up slowly. This is what I like about having a third reinforcer word. So 'good' means 'keep going, you're doing the right thing but we haven't reached the end of the exercise yet'. Then after you've done a couple of things (say, start off heeling for thirty seconds, do one round of the figure eight and then end it with the key word, or clicker and primary reinforcer (food or a ball, whatever). Then create a bridge. Click, then turn and take a step or two away and then reward. So then slowly extend the time between the secondary reinforcer (click) and primary reinforcer (food) until you have a dog that will hear the click and walk back to the car for its food reward or ball. This can be done with patience and time but it takes a while to build up. Am I making sense? Hurry slowly is the motto, I reckon

I am starting in Feb too. I picked Tracking and Trailing but the other elective I picked was Companion Animal Training Classes.

Pink Panther, I know someone who microwaves liver until it is extremely well cooked and his dog loves it best this way. It does smell a bit and his wife complains about the pong when it's cooking though!

Hi Kelpie-i... hope this comes out okay and I answer okay! You asked: >>>Hi Ayra, how do you go about teaching a complex skill which is made up of of many components with a ball as reward - do you use it as a lure as well as a reward? Do you use the ball as your dog's reward for everything he does? Just interested in your responses. It has always been my belief and teaching that the dog should choose his reward, not the human >>> I initially chose the 'wrong' reward for my particular dog in food and agree with you that the dog needs to choose the reward that pushes his/her buttons the most. I have gradually swapped from food to a ball but still retain food so that I can reward if demonstrating something to a class or I am somewhere I can't chuck a ball. It's just that to my dog, the value of the reward is lesser when it's food. Show my girl food in one hand and a ball in the other and she will go for the ball every time, not the food. That is the way she is LOL. In saying this, I will also still use food depending on what I am teaching her, as my girl is still learning to control herself and focus completely when in prey drive. If I am teaching her a trick indoors that requires her not to knock stuff over and jump up and down (such as switching a lamp on) I will use food. Then at the end I will go outside for a toss of the ball. Unlike traditional thinking, I don't just keep the ball for a reward and will play lots of recall games to help build her drive and bond with me. My aim is to ditch food for 99percent and use the ball only. To teach a complex skill with many components required lots of practice. I can and do use the ball now, throwing for short distances so the dog doesn't tire, instead of giving a piece of food. I use a secondary reinforcer word and then the primary reinforcer after a bridging period of a few seconds (am building on this), the ball. I don't lure her with it any more than I would using food. She works for her reward in the same way as food. Basically, use the same as food really. I reward with a ball in training. I reward with my voice around the house for small things and food if we're out somewhere I can't use a ball. I have worked out that for my dog, the value of rewards goes in this order: 1st = ball 2nd = food 3rd = a pat from me and good words To some this may seem bad. But my dog is not pack driven at all. She is a bit like a some Mals in that respect, I think. I learnt a big lesson in this. Each dog has to have the reinforcers that works best for them. And every dog is different, it seems. Hope this answers your questions. Do you think I am missing something in my training method? I am ALWAYS open to suggestions

I keep training or my dog would go nuts!!! We get out early in the morning before it gets hot but also, doing stuff like introducing UD exercises and lots of tricks, just to do different stuff. Good fun

Thanks for the link Sway!!!

Squeak, I agree about the conditioned reinforcer bit. I have found some people in my classes, I have to teach them to virtually teach their dog it is okay to receive a reward after doing something correctly and build the dog's drive to receive it. Some of these people originally worked under the theory that 'my dog should just do it because they love me' LOL or 'If you don't do it you get punished' (makes me mad to see people try to teach a dog something this way). Then my dog had to learn how to accept a ball as the primary reinforcer when she had previously only been having treats. So it was a conditioned reinforcer. I've been doing some reading at this website: http://animalbehaviour.net If you're doing the NDTF course next year you might find some of the stuff at this site really interesting Seems to be a good site. Lots of stuff on classical and operant conditioning.

The balls that clip onto your pants sound great Sway - I haven't seen those! Does anyone else use a ball rather than treats, even though their dogs work well for treats? I am curious. I found treats great but a ball a hundred, hundred times better with my girl. I was very surprised at the strength of my dog's reaction to ball training. It's a shame that everyone with a ball driven dog can't take one into obedience class though. Imagine - it would be mayhem. Plus, ball training is harder work for the handler I have noticed. What are other thoughts? A bit off topic I suppose but might help if the dog is not treats driven.

Do you have a GSD? Training with a ball or tug toy may work better if your dog is not highly motivated by food. Mine is but she still works much better for a tennis ball. Greatest training aid in the world for my girl!!!

Though I mainly use a ball to train with now, try soft food like cooked sausages or skinless franks. If the food is soft it will take the dog much less time to swallow and won't be so distracting for the dog when training (no chew, chew, crunch to get it down LOL!). Most people use a bum bag for their treats that I know but if you do, turn it around the back so the dog isn't constantly looking at the bum bag, but up at you. I keep two tennis balls in my bum bag, show them to my dog, then push the bag behind. She knows they are there, works to get them but isn't staring at them. Good luck! Love to know what other people use. Oh - and stay away from anything that may have onion powder in it in large quantities, like some kinds of sausage or processed meat. Onions are harmful to dogs.

Wow, what about the final pic where the dog is at head height!

Good luck and go for it!!! CCD ring work is not too challenging and you're only in there for a short time. Here are the requirements from the blue ANKC book: Heel on lead - 30pts, Stand for exam on lead - 10 pts, Recall - 20pts, 1 min sit stay - 20 pts, 2 min down stay 20 pts. Total 100 75 to pass. There is a figure 8 in the heel on lead with at least one halt and from what I have seen, this is often where the heeling falters in CCD. I am trialling Novice but have watched CCD quite a bit. My advice would be to make sure your stays are rock solid in this class as some dogs are not really ready to trial and go in it, so tend to take off. At the last trial I was at my knees were wobbling as dogs were running off in CCD while we were doing stays in Novice beside them. What a distraction! I hoped my dog wasnt' going to join them but she didn't, phew :D So proof your stays around running dogs LOL. Good luck!

In other words, I agree with those who say the problem needs to be solved with professional help. You can use a head collar, flat collar, pinch collar whatever and when you take it off your dog will still listen, if you get some help from a professional trainer. But good luck cos I know how hard it seems and at first, it seems like you'll never win. But with consistency and patience you will

Tonymc I don't think it's a windup but... Poodlemum, I worked as a vet nurse for 15 years and my bosses specialised in rottis and we saw lots of dobes and GSDs as well. Many of these used prong collars and the first time I ever saw one I was shocked LOL. But in all the years I never ONCE saw an injury caused by one. And we saw plenty of dogs with neck injuries. So I don't know where you get that one from. I suggest putting one around your leg and giving it a heck of a pull. You'll find it hard to injure yourself more than a pinch but you could strangle someone with a regular slip chain. On the subject of head collars I might add that I think the infin8 might be a little safer than the others but as soon as the head collar comes off, every dog I've seen at my classes reverts to the unwanted behaviour the head collar was put on for.

Oh, and a couple of lessons with a really good trainer or behaviourist might help clarify the behaviour of your dog anyway and you'll have less need to worry about pulling or lunging. It sure worked for me. I found a fantastic guy here in Vic!

For what it's worth, I agree, I wouldn't use a head halter. I have tried both Black Dog ones and also the halti. Personally, a pinch collar (after instruction) was actually preferred by my dog. No more rubbing the nose and trying to get it off during stays!!! I see this all the time in the obedience class I teach. To add to what others say about neck damage, I have seen another problem with head halters in my classes which I am now very fussy about when handlers have their dogs in one. If they are not fitted EXACTLY right and the dog panics at something or is playing up and pulls back hard, it's really easy, particularly with the halti brand, for the nose band to slip off the bottom of the dog's chin and into their mouth like a bit. On two occasions I saw this happen and the handler wasn't immediately aware of it because they were looking down at the dog, if you know what I mean. So if you decide to go with one (and I know lots of people have great success with them, I just don't prefer them myself), be sure that it is fitted absolutely correctly for your dog's muzzle. Hope this advice helps

Wheresmy rock, I much prefer to use verbal too for the reasons I said earlier. Plus, if you're an uncoordinated git like me you'd be sure to muck up the clicker timing anyway ROFL...

Kelpie-I, thanks for the info, I appreciate it I think it's particularly interesting you're having good success using a clicker with aggressive dog. I've seen clicker training in action. I understand the principles and can see why it is valuable, especially if someone new to training is taught to use a clicker properly. So many times in obedience classes I tell people to stop adding a lot of extraneous words when training their dogs as they completely confuse their dogs and I can see this might be reduced a lot with a clicker. However, I would have to disagree about not putting an inflection in your tone. Perhaps its just me and the dogs I've trained but I've found that if used precisely, inflections mean a lot - as long as they're used precisely. I see what you mean about the 'bad day' bit though. I think we have to be a bit of an actor when training our dogs and try to always act consistent, whatever method we use

Interesting to read about the CR as well as the PR idea. I don't have a lot of experience but have been doing this anyway. I use words rather than clicker. The word 'GOOD' = 'Keep going, you're doing really well and doing the right thing'. My dog knows this. The word 'YES' signals the end of the exercise and is followed after a short bridge period with a reward of ball or food, depending on what we are doing. The two reinforcements seem to work well individually and good in the trial ring as she knows to keep going, it's not the end between exercises. Just my take on this. Interesting topic! I like words as inflection can be put into them as necessary. Can't do this with a clicker, I feel. BUT... I've never trained with a clicker. Am I wrong? Can the clicker be used softly or loudly? I'd love to know more.