Arya

Saltwood, from what you describe (and remember, I'm not seeing it so I can't be sure) this is perfectly normal. At the moment, I'd keep the toy in view as the dog is learning to work properly in drive, with proper focus and it sounds like your focus isn't quite there. IMHO the toy goes out of view once behaviour and control are well established, and you have the focus you want. Keep going - with my own dog, I had this behaviour with the drop. The dog would be so tight and excited that she could hardly bring herself to lower herself to the ground. But she learnt to control herself in the end, to get the buzz of the chase of the ball. It's not the same as when training in food drive. The dog is primed to go off, like an arrow from a bow. They are ready to run or ready to tug and worry a toy, so it takes a bit for them to learn to control themselves. This is why, if they love to work in prey drive and they work well in it, they look superb. If you're getting the crouch, just don't give the toy. If the dog knows 'stand' well, great. Go back a step and act like the dog isn't as far on with the stand. Because... the dog cannot concentrate as well yet on what they are supposed to be doing. They are honing in on the toy with every fibre of their being LOL. So think to yourself that you might have to guide the dog into the stand a bit manually. Tuck the toy into your belt or something while you do it. Then reward when it is just right. As the dog learns to control themselves in a high state of drive, they will get better and better. Whatever you do, don't give up. It really does sound like it's going great. I love working with dogs like yours, who are super hyped for a toy or ball

I sure do have a private instructor! I don't have lessons every week or anything, just when he comes to Melbourne every month or so but every time I have a lesson I go away and we improve out of sight. I work as an obedience instructor and do take private lessons myself but imho everyone who is seriously into their dogsport needs the help of an instructor, even if it's only now and again. It's true that most classes, there's just too many people in them - though one to six would be great!

Hey Saltwood, that is GREAT!!! Don't think something has gone wrong with your training, just think you need to modify it a bit! Don't worry about the fact the dog is completely crazy for the toy, be glad. It might take time and patience for you to teach your dog to control his/her drive and restrain themselves to get their reward but it's all in how you use it. If Fido is nuts for the toy, insist on that good sit before you give it. Pick an exercise the dog knows well (this is why I mention sit) and make the dog WORK to get it right. I do understand where you're coming from cos when teaching something that requires high level of coordination such as a trick I will still go back and use food as I want a lower drive as my dog will still be tense and over reactive to get that ball. It takes time to teach them to control themselves but it's well worth it. It sounds like you're actually probably going better than you think!

I agree with Erny. I think that the dog should choose the primary reward/reinforcer. In saying this, I use ball with my dog almost all the time cos that is what she works best for. BUT, maybe you want to use food cos it's a bit inconvenient to go chucking a ball around or squeaking a toy in an obedience class. I have had this situation in the past and will work with food in places I can't start chucking balls everywhere and going crazy LOL. For my girl, uncooked skinless franks are a treat. Bits of bacon too - yum! I agree about cabana and cheese too. These things are soft and quickly swallowed by the dog when you're working so there isn't too much distraction away from the work. But if your dog loves the squeaky more than anything else, how about working with it when you're on your own and food at your club, if that is the problem? Just a thought. You'll get the best from your dog by letting your dog pick the motivator it loves best.

I agree Sidoney. My two cents' worth - I think it is important to work your dog on different terrains to increase body awareness, within reason. I do it with my shepherd bitch. I take the precaution of putting exercise bandages on her hind legs when working her because when she twists and turns to catch a ball or twists about when running full tilt she goes down on her hocks a bit but totally think it's good to work on all terrains. In fact, when I have a client with a pup, I get them working the pup on the lead walking across boards, grates, up and down all terrains (within reason of the pup's abilities and taking care of their legs etc as far as no jumping for, say, a growing young shep). Especially little dogs who can be fussy about where they walk. Without being too dramatic, a more surefooted larger dog might just save a cruciate injury one day when running over rough ground if they are more agile and less prone to stumble. It's a good point you bring up!

Amhailte, I think you're right! It makes sense, the dog is already conditioned to your voice, the clicker is a totally new sound and this makes the connection quicker. I can see that it would also be less cumbersome to use clicker and voice than two levels of clicker sound. Just shows I've never used clicker with dogs before The reason I've chosen to use the clicker with the cat rather than a word is cats (well, my domestic moggie anyway) can be so easily spooked by sounds and the regular click of the clicker is not so distracting and easier for the cat to work out its a marker. But... what a lazy worker she is compared to the dog LOL!

Hi all, I must say I think a bit like Amhalite (spelling wrong I know LOL). I don't use clicker but think everyone should give it a bit of a try. Actually, that's not true. I don't use clicker for my DOG. However, I've recently started clicker training my cat. She also gets it right away like the dogs- only prob is finding a food reinforcer of high enough value as she is a fussy slow eater. Here's what I think. Clicker is superb if you don't feel that you can mark as exactly with your voice or a word. The dog hears the same sound every time and there's no mistake. Do others agree with me that this is why they pick it up so quick? With voice, there is the potential to say the release word too late, or with an unintended inflection that might confuse the dog. HOWEVER, the inflections are the very reason I much prefer to train my dog using my voice. I use 'Yes' as the release word and there's just so many ways you can say it depending on how strong you want the dog's reaction to be. So... a complex skill completed, just before another complex skill and I give a quiet 'yes'. A full on release during heeling and it's 'YES!!!. I was wondering, being new to clicker training, has anyone heard of using softer or louder clickers depending on the exercise with your dogs? Maybe the same principle applies. I'd love to know. great topic!

Hi LP, nope but I saw those gorgeous corgis too and I would have swapped them for my naughty girl on the day (only kidding LOL). I had the NAUGHTY young GSD who just got a grin on her face and didn't bother to leave the post when I did, then proceeded to trot out of the ring to my friends and then merrily trot back in again. This is outrageous behaviour for her and I was horrified!!! It wasn't as if it was her first trial either. She did do a lovely recall though in the afternoon so I suppose I can give her that much... I was in Novice 2 up the right hand side of the field. I saw some dogs having trouble too, some littlies didn't like the ground and just wouldn't work at all on the dirt, especially in the morning, but I could see Southern had done their best to smooth it out and cover up cracks in the rings and make it safe. What can you do in this drought? That's no excuse for my girl though as she didn't even notice the ground... too busy sniffing the air and having a whale of a time GRRR! Did you see that lovely Shar Pei there? I have never seen a Shar Pei doing obedience before but the dog went well and got a pass I think. There were some very good performances on the day... including yours and Leos!!!

Southern is a great club. if I lived closer I would join but it's just too far. Lucky people who live close. One of the best

CONGRATULATIONS Leopuppy, YAY! I was there, I didn't get to see your workout but I sure saw beautiful Leo tied up outside the clubhouse there. My friend was talking to you about her Aussie, as yours and hers are related. He is so lovely. Well done and he's such a lovely dog, I'm sure you'll go on to win lots more with him Me on the other hand, I am a bit heartbroken. My beautiful dog literally went feral on the day. I can't understand it and people who know how she works had their jaws dropped. She just refused point blank to work at all. She got disqualified for being unmanageable in the ring on the morning session and worked like a dog who shouldn't have been anywhere near the ring in the afternoon session. I have NO idea why and went away wondering what on earth I can do to solve this sudden problem. On Tues night, someone said to me that she worked as well in heeling as Andrew McDonald's dog (he of the shepherd who won top dog a couple of years running). No good if she does it in the ring at KCC Park and nowhere else in other rings... But, I will have to work on the prob later as I've found she has a growth on her hock that will have to come off in a hurry. It's small so hopefully fine. But... to get back to Leo, he is such a smartie and I hope that pic of him there with his winnings takes pride of place on your wall!!!! I'll look forward to seeing him have further successes at Croydon. He stands out so I'll try to watch out for him in the ring next time :D :D

Here's another two cents worth I think that it's repetition. To completely overwrite the unwanted type of drop, you have to do many, many good drops the way you want them. This is why I only reward for the exact kind of drop I want (successive approximation). The percentage of good drops gets better and better this way. However, drop on the move is asking the dog to remember to do the new 'good' drop while thinking about other stuff, like coming in towards you. How about trying to train these drops off the recall but still at a distance? For example, get a ball or toy and throw it, as the dog runs towards you, tell him to drop. When he drops the way you want him to (even if he comes in up close to you), throw the second one. This takes practice but I've got a nice DOR this way. Hardly ever do it formally. Do it all with the ball game. Then throw one in on your recalls now and again and watch what happens. They go down like a stone out of habit. Just a thought. But it involves a bit of retraining again and takes time. If you get a lot of skidding forward in the DOR it will help though. But getting that nice drop from a run is a lot harder than from a change of position position - I'm sure I'm just telling you something you already know LOL Thanks for letting me know my method works with the patting the hqs though. :D Keep telling us how you go. We all learn a lot from each other!

Okay, I think this must be a really common problem! I've heard lots of different ways to solve it. Had the problem with my girl and I must admit it can appear again in times of distraction (like at a trial, unfortunately!!!). Old habits die hard LOL. What I did was virtually train a new, different exercise. As well as continuing to work on the Novice change of position from the required distance, I took her aside and worked up close right in front of her again, back to the beginning. I stood her and lured her like a pup. Leaned slightly forward over her body and said 'drop'. She dropped and the second she got the drop correct, I rewarded her and patted her hindquarters, saying 'good drop, good drop'. After a few goes she did actually get how I wanted the drop to be done. Now I know she knows this as when practicing using a schedule of 'successive approximation reinforcement' where you only reward with a treat or other reinforcer when the dog gets it right, she corrects herself when she does it wrong. Now we have progressed to drop, sit, stand all with hind legs superglued to the ground, from the required distance. As I say though, the old hoppy habit comes back sometimes if we are, say, at trial practice at KCC park sometimes. I'm just trying to be patient... Hope this helps! Let me know if you try this method and it works for you too. I haven't used it with any of my students so I just don't know. Hope my idea helps. I tried some of the others but they didn't work for my girl.

Aha, I lost this thread... knew I was going senile!!! Any further thoughts Phoenix? How are you getting on?

Only once I have really lost my temper while training. It didn't cause a problem with my dog, lucky for me. As Shoemonster said, you learn from it. Nope, nope, nope. These days, never. If things aren't going well I'm more likely to worry about how to get around the problem. So I abandon whatever is going wrong and find something positive to work on, to end on a good note, them pack up and have a cuppa. With other people, sometimes I really really do want to lose my temper and have to walk away. People are the ones it's hardest not to lose your temper at, I reckon! In saying this, I reckon we'd all be inhuman if we didn't get frustrated sometimes in our training.

Phoenix, what happened to your other question about your dog that wouldn't come to you? I can't find it any more but it was up there yesterday. Is it taken off or am I going senile and cant see it (highly possible LOL).

Sorry for the long post everyone... my fingers went crazy again :rolleyes:

I feel really sorry for you both and hope you find a solution to the problem :rolleyes: If I were you Id' head on back to K9 for sure. This can be a terribly frustrating one can't it. Hey, you'll get there! Here is my little two cents worth. You may find something useful in it, or you may not but I hope something I write helps As you didn't have her from a new pup you are working kind of 'behind the 8-ball' cos you don't know what happened to her before you had her. From what you describe, I can hear how frustrated you are about it. Hey, why not start right from the beginning again. Don't assume any prior knowledge with her and pretend you've never worked with her. Begin with no recalls or formal commands, just lots of bonding and play in the garden at home and long, no-stress street walks together, just you and the dog (assuming the dog will walk nicely on the lead for you?). Go for it, let her have the toy, balls, whatever in the garden. Let her win and enjoy being around you. Don't get too worried about her not working for the toy. You start all games, never her. You finish all games before she is ready to. Then you're still in charge. If she wants to include herding you in it go crazy and run around with her! Play her way, at least at first. The dog enjoying herself is the key, imho. As long as she is having a blast and sees you as the 'funmeister' if that makes sense. Do this for as long as it takes to see her run towards you happily in the garden when you hold up the toys or go out and invite her to play. Then, and only then, go back to formal training, little by little. Tiny steps. Keep it fun. Keep it light. Maybe she's had bad experiences. You may never know. Before considering e-collar or anything compulsive (and here I must say I am happy to use compulsion whereever it really is necessary and would happily use a prong collar or an e collar if the situation was right... but ONLY if the situation was right and in experienced hands) I'd definitely make the trip back to K9 for further advice. Here on-line you can only get so many ideas when people can't see you and your dog. Good luck

Actually, I thought his heelwork was great Dogdude!!! Very focussed. :D

CTD, I totally agree that dog needs to be better than standard. I do what you do with the stays and have eked them out the three minutes in the sit stays now, so like Open time. Best part about this, in the ring it feels like you're returning early. Credit to Moses that he stood for that stand for exam with the Chinese eyes LOL. My dog will now stand for her head to be touched if she has to but does not love her head being touched by strangers. It is a dominant gesture and she is a fear submissive dog with people. Why do we have to train our dogs to withstand dominant gestures from strangers??? It's beyond a test of character imho, but then, them's the rules so we do it Thanks for the rules Mrs D. I didn't know it said the head as I've never seen that done in Novice or CCD. As Dogdude said, most seem to be very quick in the exam so as not to unduly spook the dog.

Might have helped if I'd read your post better Jules. if he isn't 100% on the stand in general I wouldn't try a stand for exam. It's better just to get the stand solid first, so he's not dealing with silly humans touching him too LOL. CTD, did the judge touch your dog's face and head in CCD stand for exam? I didn't think that was allowed. It's not a show ring! Gee, I've never even seen them do that in Open, where they are more thorough! Good on Moses for standing still and taking it! Does anyone know if that's not acceptable for a judge to go over the face and head? It seems a bit harsh at least at CCD level...

Okay, my dog was like this too, just the same. A bit fear submissive with people. Tips I've been told were practice at home and club if the dog likes being brushed, with you using a brush and doing the stand for exam all by yourself. The thing that worked for me was heaps of stand for exams formally but me taking the handler's and judge's roles both. I use the words 'stand for exam' so she knows what's coming and she's a bugger on everything else but just zones out and ignores the judge now. never have a foot move. But to start with, I did it all by myself until she knew exactly what was coming. Then she was okay with strangers doing it cos she knew exactly what they were going to do. And I NEVER let anyone touch her head, or correct her for not standing well. I believe in cxns where necessary but not in this quite fearful exercise for the dog. Hope this helps. Remember... I am thinking of changing my name to CHIR (crap handler in the ring!!!) after Sat night LOL.

No luck for us either Jodie :rolleyes: Not to worry. The way I look at it, if we can take one positive thing out of the evening, where everyone seemed to be having trouble (except the beautiful rotti who got, I think 192!) then it was still a good night. I had a wonderful recall from my dog. I thought your heeling was superb too. Hey, hows about we combine dogs (what would that be - a shepug??? LOL) and then we'd have a dog that heels well and does great speedy recalls and stand for exam nice and steady... but the distance control, woe is me too! I would have passed, though not a good pass as my dog was still acting a bit distracted on the heeling, but she wasn't looking on the distance control so I gave a massive DROP! AND STUPIDLY LEFT MY HAND STUCK OUT IN THE SIGNAL!!! I came out of the ring thinking it was touch and go until my friend got my scores and I realised what I'd done NQd for double signalling. The judge wasn't too impressed with my sharp tone of voice with the dog on the drop too but it was that or nothing as Tess' 'boyfriend' was down the end of the next ring, about to go in, and boyfriends count for more than handlers still, it seems! And this from a dog who does UD signal work all changes of position... huh, she's just got a crap handler. So it's back to FOO nights at KCC Park on Tuesdays for me and a little rethink once again about distractions. Better luck for us all at Southern - I got second last time I was there so am hoping for good vibes from the place

IMHO I think the topic should stay. Andoria, the single greatest piece of advice I can think to give you is to go see K9 Force. Books, great suggestions and will help empower you to help the dog you love but no disrespect to any other trainer, but K9 Force would be the person to help you. I think most on DOL would agree with this

Prodigybxr, I have heard what a fantastic heeler your pug is - good luck! Hope you get your title on Saturday

I can't find the original destraint therapy topic! Am I weird, cos I've never heard of it? It sounds like something from the early 20th century to me.... but then, I haven't read the topic, just seen the result. Perhaps it's been taken off?