Arya

But what if fighting (or the adrenaline rush from fighting) is the best motivator for a particular dog? It's not exactly something you can make the dog work for, it's something you never ever want the dog to do. And although in this situation you can teach and reward alternative behaviours until the cows come home, if you never reduce the value of the predatory/aggressive behaviour with some sort of aversive, then what's to stop the dog indulging in it whenever he has the opportunity? And as long as you're also constantly reinforcing correct behaviour, then what's so wrong with using a correction to show the dog that particular behaviours simply won't be tolerated? (I don't want to hijack this thread, so Leopuppy, please feel free to respond via PM instead of posting here in response. I have read & attempted to use the Click to Calm book, and am always interested in informed discussions about dog-dog aggression, since it's pretty much an ongoing challenge for us.) You can use fight drive to make the dog work but it's tricky and unpredictable in a dog with the wrong temperament and unsuitable in a lot of cases. Amhalite, I agree that a cxn to shut the behaviour down in these situations is the fastest way to assert leadership and show the behaviour is unacceptable. Assert leadership - just like an Alpha dog would. But i wouldn't use it in training if a dog wasn't working well because of some other reason. Fighting is a total no-no and not on in my doggy rule book.

I find it interesting that epople will quickly say you need to find the method to suit the dog actually you need to fine tune the method to suit the dog but if you truly undrstand the method you are using and listen to the dog and get inside his head any method can work for any dog just as well Its the handler that has to trust in their tools Have a look at the very soft sensitive dogs that are trialling that have very heavy handd handlers i often wonder how they can get such good results using hard correction on a soft dog ts because they know their method they know when to push and when to back off. I respectfully disagree If we stick to one method alone, we may not be doing the dog any favours. Purely positive simply doesn't work with some dogs I've worked with. It is not enough. Not every method works for every dog, in my experience. I don't quickly say you need to find the method to suit the dog, I say that from hard-won experience. Now if you do look at those soft dogs trialling that have heavy handed handlers, if you look carefully you can pick it by the dog's demeanour. Imagine what a very soft dog that has been heavily corrected would be like if they had not been trained in that manner! We can only speculate but they might have been a lot brighter in the ring. And how about those harder dogs who continually need bribing to get them to work? Hmmm. I've seen a few of those too. Each to his own opinion though. That's what's great about this forum!

Okay, I can't speak about herding at all but I do ALL the obedience levels from Novice to UD and tricks and some agility too. Basically, my theory is do anything and everything if you train a heck of a lot, as boredom on the dog's behalf is the big de-motivator. In saying this, there are definitely time constraints. I guess imho, with the exception of herding which I know nothing about, it's just how much time you put in. The more the merrier as it's all obedience. I don't find it confuses dogs. On the other hand, I was talking to a wonderful trainer recently who has the opposite view. He believes each level should be taught and nothing more until that level is passed, in Obedience. And he has got UDX so he should know. I just respectfully disagree with him though

Here's what I think. I am all for use of positive methods wherever possible. After all, we want our dogs to want to work for us and enjoy working for us. How can this be if we correct them into it? BUT, I also believe that positive punishment, when used wisely, is a highly important part of training many dogs. Note WISELY. I guess I fall somewhere in the middle. I'll always use positive methods and NRM where possible but it simply is not enough with some dogs and some behaviours imho. I think it depends on the dog you have. If speaking just about my own dogs, my last little dog, you couldn't dare raise your voice in the house or he ran and hid (I'm serious), so everything had to be positive with him and he just didn't challenge. My GSD bitch I've got now - a whole other ball game. Positive cxns essential at times, when used wisely. I think there's a place for all methods and the method chosen should be the one that fits the dog's temperament.

- this comment made me think that ruthless got professional advice on what collar to use for the dog. Fair enough, but I had to ask ;). A prong collar seems, to me, and I am more than happy to be um.......corrected, that the tool may be not necessary, especially as the dog has been further educated. Lablover, I'll tell you what happened to me the other day. I must say I'm female and only weigh 53 kilos (skinny bugger - not a great look LOL!) and my shepherd is 30 kilos. You'll see why I say this when I get to the point... I use a prong collar with my girl. I like it cos it is safer and more humane than a check chain when used correctly. Some may disagree but there you go. Now I also use a lovely soft, wide flat collar on my girl and I was walking down the street with her and she was being a bit antsy. She could see a little dog up in front and started pulling, which I won't put up with when she's supposed to be walking at heel of course as she knows much better. The lead played out and I gave a big two-handed check and surprised myself, as I didn't mean to pull so hard. Poor girl, her head whipped back and she fell into line and I felt like the biggest meanie as I almost gave her whiplash and believe me, at 53 kilos I'm not that strong. My cxn was way over the top, in my own opinion - by accident. My point is, I don't believe that when fitted correctly you can do that as easily with a prong. It contracts as it is pulled when not on lock and it would take a stronger person than me (okay, that's probably nearly everyone ) to do what I did with the flat collar. So... which is worse for the dog? If she'd been on the prong, unlocked, a force two cxn would have reminded her to listen up when told to heel and leave other dogs alone. Ideally we'd all like to walk our dogs on nothing but voice control, I'm sure. But the prong isn't the tool of torture that it looks by any means. Whereas flat collars, haltis etc can be deceptive. That's my two cents' for the day

K9: your welcome, my Triangle of temptation gives a run down on where the positive marker is used, that may help you, or the other option is the Distance Learning Packages that I do, we have one on training in drive. This will cover the use of the motivator, the markers both positive & the no reward marker to help guide the dog, the release command & the understanding of how a re enforcer works with timing... Just make sure you dont throw the toy/tug or ball.. But good luck & let us know how you go? Thank you again K9 I will go to your site and look up the distance learning package as this I am definitely interested in. I won't throw the ball/tug (she goes mad for both luckily for me!)as you say. So far the dog is really enjoying this and I think it has part to do with my behaviour too. Maybe we should both go into drive before we enter the ring LOL. It's too quiet and formal at those trials!!! Hey Dogdude, great question and a very interesting answer! When I first started taking classes at a local ob club and tried to liven things up a bit and get a bunch of dogs who were basically going to sleep in class excited again, the handlers actually got worried when their dogs start to show some action and excitement, bouncing around. It was kind of considered 'uncontrollable' and going into drive was definitely a no-no . They seem to enjoy themselves much better these days but still, they don't like too much action from their dogs even though they're generally small classes and not out of control. Sad, isn't it!!!

Thanks a million K9!!! This is great and after answering this we are off to the park with our stuff to practice LOL. K9: Thats great to hear, but this also suggests that her nerves arent that bad as when nerves are bad it is very hard to trigger prey drive in a new environment where confidence isnt strong This sounds good and makes me feel a little relieved. She is a complicated dog (for me!!!) to work out. K9: your correct, aversives will only worsen this particular problem... Aversives are used to reduce, control & extinguish drive, I have a rule that says never add pressure to pressure... Glad you agree with my thoughts on this. When she really is naughty it's pretty damned obvious ;) This is not one of those occasions. Suggestions, the marker word should be an integral part of drive training anyway, what it will help is to identify to the dog that it has compeleted the correct move. The problem you have is that you dont own the trigger. You are using fast movement of the ball to "trigger" your dogs prey drive, now when the ball isnt in sight, no trigger = no drive... Correct??? What you need to do is.. Start every training session with the ball out of sight, & with a lot of enthusiasm say a key or trigger word which is said over and over a few times just before presenting the ball & making drive (putting a lot of movement into the ball). What your looking for is the dog to hear the trigger word, & go into drive without seeing the ball. Then complete very short excercise such as sit, then reward, begin to add excercises as you need them to extend the amount of time the dog can remain in drive without needing to sight the ball.. I use the phrase, you ready to work?... The marker word, I use "yes" & its used after every time the dog completes the correct action to mark / re inforce that action, I then like to give a release command such as OK to let the dog know he can now partake in the reward. (this stops the dog snatching at the ball out of opportunity) The marker word, when used in this fashion, will become a secondary motivator which in a short time will help maintain the dogs drive through numerous excercies... Excited use of the word to build dynamic actions such as fast sits drops recalls etc, slow calm stretched out use of the marker for focus excercises such as longer stays that you want the dog to explode at the end of.. When you have good progress, time your training sessions & make sure that you can trigger drive & keep it for 10 - 15% longer than the trial, of course you can re trigger as many times as need be, (by using the trigger word or phrase)... Oh, thanks HEAPS for this. On reading what you say I can see that I was starting at exactly the wrong end in trying to trigger her drive!!! I was searching around to think of something new and you are so right, I don't own the trigger at all. I have printed off what you have written and am about to start work on it ;) Interesting to use a marker AND a release to stop the dog snatching at the ball. I will try this too as this is an issue we have and even though she's not large by GSD standards, it's no fun having the dog throw themselves at you full force to get the reward when they are super excited! Thank you so much again for the advice.

K9, I apologise if this question has been asked before too I have a GSD who really lacks nerve but drive training has been the key to building her confidence and getting her to focus and work for me just about anywhere. She is terrific - fires up just at the sight of ball and works brilliantly, forgets about any other dogs, only sees me and the ball and the game... except at trials the minute we step into the ring and of course, no ball in sight. She stargazes, even forgets how to sit (can't pass novice yet trained to UD LOL) and yet, outside of the ring with her lead on, is fine. The disconnection of the lead seems to switch her off yet we don't work on a lead in training. Someone suggested to me she is being naughty and needs a kick up the butt but I just don't believe it. She just gets kind of lost. I am now working on a new strategy of as well as using a marker word and the ball, inserting a sound and fast hand movement between the two to try to classically condition her to switch into prey drive by the sound and hand movement alone. It seems to be working (I hope) and the big test will be at the next trial in a couple of weeks. All very nice to go well in a trial but the real thing for me is to try to win the battle against the dog's lack of nerve and her displacement behaviours which seem to be caused by fear. Any suggestions? Do you think my idea might work? Your next seminar down in Melbourne is on the top of my list!

It sounded like a great day at Beaconsfield and I would have LOVED to go. If another one is held and I can get there I will but unfortunately I had already committed to do a tricks demo with my own dog for a club function and could not get out of it I am jealous! Was the UD dog Scott, Andrew McDonald's dog. What a great trainer! Sounds like you had fun ;)

I saw that lovely black poodle too. Gorgeous! CTD were you there yesterday? I laughed at the high tens in between exercises! I don't think it's not allowed, exactly... Hey, Jane Wilmott, the wonderful trainer with a magnificent champion GSD, I've seen her doing high tens with her dog as a reward, at least in training! And if only we could have a dog that works like Toby...

Ruthless, your post made me so angry at those IGNORANT trainers. It really is such ignorance and makes my blood boil!!! I am SO sorry this happened to you. I am a total advocate of the prong collar. I train and instruct at a non-vca club here in Vic and the reaction to the collar would be the same. But, nobody touches my dog or her collar so I have made a leather cover for it and what they can't see they can't get on their high horse about. It makes me angry that I've had to do this even. I have seen quite recently someone use a regular check chain on a dog that actually cut the dog's neck. The neck was bleeding after five or six hard checks. And that was all I could see... what about damage to the spine? You couldn't do this with a regular prong collar if you tried, just because of the way it is designed. I would NEVER go back to that club if I were you after being abused like that. Erny, I am in total agreement with you about head collars. I only recommend them in certain circumstances. And good on you for your work to get the prong collar issue back on the table legislation-wise. I am an author so though I couldn't do much, if you want stuff proof-read or any help just PM me :cool: Cheers

Hi all :cool: Ah, Leopuppy, don't feel too bad!!! It sounds like if you got through the heeling well you did okay. It's your first time in Novice and it sounds like well done to me!!! Wish I had been able to watch. And lots of people I talked to had bombed out. In fact, just about everyone I knew! So even though it was a lovely day it obviously just wasn't a day for a lot of passes. But I did see some really good stuff. A white shepherd who looked great, a lovely cattle dog, a rotti who did excellent heelwork in my novice ring. So great to watch others doing really well. You couldn't possibly have done as bad as ME anyway Leo:laugh: I saw you were in Novice 1 and I was in Novice 2. I caught a glimpse of you but I had my dog with me at the time and was doing this new policy of kind of isolating us from everyone until we'd been in the ring and keeping my focus totally on the dog (had to warn my friends so they didn't think I was snobbing them off LOL). I had the perfect parking spot, the perfect ring to be near my car, the perfect weather, and the absolutely perfect work-up to going into the ring. She was the most focussed beforehand I've ever had her. Then... it all went to hell once the lead was removed. Actually, it was a disaster but not nearly as big a disaster as Southern (at least she didn't leave the ring and she did manage to get through the heeling except seemed to forget how to sit at the halt (Duh, what am I supposed to do Mum??? Oh.. yep, that's right!), and get this - when we did fast pace it was towards the gate and she was all set to run right out till I called her back!). I started off fine, the first twenty seconds good then I just lost her. Her eyes glazed over and even the judge said she looked like she had sawdust between her ears. Actually, the judge was very kind. At this point, not knowing what she was going to do, i made things ten times worse by being so nervous that my hands and feet actually went numb. RIDICULOUS! So really, I think a good part of our failure was my fault. Plus, she wasn't really being naughty. She's had a lot of problems and I think with more trial experience she'll relax and not do all this silly displacement behaviour. It does upset me though as the dog is trained to UD and can do the full excercises Novice, Open, UD and a whole tricks show anywhere else, any time but in the actual trial ring. It's my fault somewhere (sigh). Sorry for the long rave! Anyone else got stories about yesterday?

I'm with Nekhbet on this one. You definitely aren't using the prong collar correctly and if this is the case and you're getting pulling and marks, don't swap to a check chain or the choking effect will be worse and you'll have even less control. You need to be shown how to use a prong/pinch collar, or a check chain, or a halti correctly from the sounds of things. Hey, don't worry, everyone needs to be shown how to use the equipment properly initially. I would definitely go and see if you can book in with K9 force to sort this equipment problem out. Then, hey, you are the dogs' leader so too bad if they don't like being walked separately. I'd walk each dog for half the distance/time and walk them separately. It's better than one longer nightmare walk where the pulling dog learns nothing. Really, it will be much better for all concerned and allow you to concentrate on training the difficult dog to walk nicely. Hang in there but go get some tuition.

I'm with Mrs D on this one. I'd look at electrifying the fence. I know this sounds harsh but there you go. Hey, dogs on horse properties cop a boot from the fence now and again and aren't scarred for life. THey learn quick to keep off it. you can either buy proprietary dog control electric fencing with a collar that goes off when they approach the fence, or think about horse tape. Actually, what I'd do is get a semi-permanent run, or build one, so's you can take it with you AND have the electric option for when you're home and you let him out in the back yard. This will serve you in good stead for years to come as it will teach him he cannot do the behaviour without a big punishment and you'll have him safely contained during the day. Yep, this all costs money and it's dreadful but the alternatives are worse. What if he does it again? What if he gets out and does it elsewhere when you're not around. I REALLY REALLY feel for you and it's awful that he got out just as you were trying to do the right thing. Good luck and I hope it works out okay.

Yep, I'll be there! I'll be working my girl well away from everyone and everything until our time in the ring and have a few new sort of isolationist strategies to prevent walkouts and heading to the barbecue by the canine half of our team LOL! but as soon as I'm done I'll be there cheering you all on (quietly of course, so's not to disturb you). I'll be on the lookout for that lovely boy Leo again Anyone who sees the skittish little shepherd bitch - that's me with her. Come up and say hello... after we've been in there and done something outrageous yet again GOOD LUCK EVERYONE

Good luck to them Puggles and good on them and you for being so persistent in trying to get to the bottom of the poor dog's problems. Do come back on and let us know how things work out, or how things are going. Hope he settles down.

It's great that at least you have a full history for the dog, Puggles. You could indeed be right about the boredom tho if nothing is working and there's no change to his habits and his new owners are doing things right, this is strange. The hearing thing, the eyesight thing... there still could be a physical cause behind his behaviour. If you are in Sydney or Melbourne, do you think the owners would consider seeing a behaviourist like Dr Robert Holmes? It might cost a bit but it could well be worth it. Good luck - keep letting us know how things go.

Okay, as a trainer isn't this the most frustrating problem to deal with? It can be a nightmare! My thoughts - sounds like you've tried a lot and that the new owners have been motivated to really work hard to find a solution. Without seeing the behaviour for myself and being able to rule out categorically things like accidentally rewarding him with attention when he barks (even a telling-off is attention to some dogs, remember), you mention that he has a hearing loss and sight probs. As he's a rescue dog, do you know any of his history? The reason I'm asking is like Kirty, I'm wondering if there's a physiological problem behind his barking - some small bit of brain damage? The reason this thought struck me is some years ago I knew someone who had a problem barker who was also a little odd in other ways due to the fact he'd had a mild case of distemper, of all things, as a pup. The dog had minor brain damage. The owner was a vet and knew the dog's history well. I am just wondering if this could be a possibility and if in this case (and I hate to recommend them and rarely suggest it) perhaps some behaviour modifying drugs might help. It might be worth a trip to the vet to discuss this possibility. If all else fails, think of the possibility of a neurological problem is what I'm saying I guess. Like I said - can't see the dog but it's just another idea to throw into the melting pot. Good luck!

Hi Leo, good thread I use a number of motivators, ball being the main one as this is what works best for my girl. I've also discovered to my cost that I need to use myself as a motivator more, which is now what I am doing LOL (think sausages at that trial!!!). To keep Tess motivated I vary the places I train at, which she likes - go to different ovals, work at different times. She will work for a long time and stay highly motivated so I have to watch I stop before she is ready to stop, to keep things fun for her. I vary the exercises a LOT, placing slight emphasis on things that need fine tuning. For new things she is learning or has just learnt I work mostly in the back yard at first with lots of food and ball. When releasing Tess using myself as a motivator I use her release word and then say 'give me ten' and she jumps up, which is something she loves to do so is a great motivator! If using food I vary food using high value (to her) soft foods such as cheese, kabana, skinless franks. But, the tennis balls are like gold to her so they are the best reward of all. At the moment I am asking her to wait for her motivator ball until we do a whole novice routine on an oval first, as the first part of our long training schedule. We do one or two short training and one long training every day. One of the shorts is always tricks. Interaction with me is the reward between exercises on obedience stuff. Then a good play with the ball and interaction with me as a reward at the end. Maybe some food too but depends where we are training. This is a deliberate change in my training plan and not one I usually do with her but she has to be proofed more for trials after our last experience! When training individual exercises I will release her during the exercise if I am working on one bit and she has done it well, or at the end of one or two exercises. Depends what we are doing. When training tricks I use a continuous schedule of reinforcement for most of them as many of the tricks are now quite complex and involve chaining a few complex behaviours together, so I treat that differently from regular ob training. Hey, intresting that you ask for hugs cos I ask for cuddles LOL I too find myself the hardest motivator and I think this is because this is kind of the last stage of proofing for a lot of dogs. At least, that's the way I look at it. It will be good to see what others do too! Anyway, that's what I do with my own dog.

Here's my thoughts - it's great to join a club if you can but like others I would do most of my training alone. And heelwork - BORING at most clubs for your dog. Way too much of it and turns the dog off. Like some others, I think teaching a dog to heel off-lead first with a motivator is the way to go. Unlike some others, I think teaching a pup this and teaching the right position from the beginning is the way to go, then they have always got good position if you do it right. But... need to remember they're babies and only do little bits at a time Where a club comes in is in the vital proofing stages of training. Working a dog around other dogs is half the battle, as someone else said. I have learnt this to my cost. What's the point of having a dog trained to UD if they can't get their Novice pass cos they're too distracted and not proofed properly LOL. So I would always recommend joining a club but being careful not to spend too much time heeling about in the classes or boring the dog. In saying this, there's lots of good clubs out there who understand this I'm sure.

ooh Arya - as a bit of competition can I plz casually drop a sausage at random places around the ring??? I'll be the one - first time in Novice with a dog who after all the 'my dog heels better off lead talk' will probably have a dog that will heel terribly - just to spite me ! LOL Leo, you don't even need to have a sausage around her, just whisper the word 'sausage' as we walk past and she'll do a u turn and follow you he he :D Leo is bound to do well - he's just too beautiful not to!

Gorgeous pic!!! :D I personally wouldn't let your nephew feed the dog, even though both dogs are happy to have him around the food bowl. I just wouldn't go there with a child this young and the dogs feeding, no matter how good they are. Limit interaction until both nephew and dog know the ground rules. I would teach your nephew now that the dog's behaviour is not acceptable. I know he's only a little tacker but the younger you teach kids how to behave with animals the better, imho. And yep, crate the dog or get him to sit in his place, if you have trained him to go to his place. I have a mat for my dog and it's 'on your mat', then a reward so the mat is a pleasant spot to be, not a punishment if you get what I mean. Mat needs to be in a 'good' place in the house in the dog's mind though. Somewhere he can see what is going on, not out of the way. That pic is so cute though!

Leopuppy and Wagalot, look out for me cos I'll be in Novice there too. I'll be the one with the Shepherd bitch who will work like a champion outside the ring and then when we step in, I will be walking away from the starting post and my dog will have gone for a sausage at the bbq, I cna just about guarantee it LOL All good fun anyway. Should be a good day. It was sad when Croydon had to be cancelled last year cos of the heat so I'm looking forward to this one. see you there!

great topic Cosmolo! I'm being sidetracked too Leopuppy LOL. I think I am very open-minded (well, I try to be LOL). I must admit there are times when I've almost cried at watching someone at a club 'training' a dog in what I consider to be a totally wrong way and cruel. On the other hand, I've had to stop myself laughing at some 'purely positive' comments I've had made to me. But it's good to learn all techniques and I think you can always benefit and learn from the experience of others, even if you've got a preferred training method. And, like choosing a motivator for the dog, in a way, it's the dog that chooses the training method imho. It's down to temperament, background and behaviour. I've recently seen a disastrous situation where I watched a little Basenji x that was extremely fear aggressive pulled around on a check chain until its neck bled. Now THAT MADE ME ANGRY and it was downright cruel and totally inappropriate and totally the wrong way to handle the dog's problem from start to finish of the laughingly named 'training session'. But, I'll cheerfully tell you I have no problem with check chains and use a prong collar on my own dog at times. I'm happy to use all equipment - or none!! - depending on what will work best for the dog - as long as its used properly and in context. I also really like your comment Wheres My Rock that disciplining bad manners is different to motivational training in the ring or for tricks etc. I totally agree Stay positive wherever possible but sometimes there has to be a consequence for flagrantly bad behaviour.

I never stop learning either. This site is great for learning other people's ideas. I love it!