Arya

Yes, she sure is Lablover. I guess it is part of her temperament, genetic I feel looking at her breeding, so will always be there but well hidden now. She has improved out of sight in the last twelve months. Used to exhibit really bad dog aggression, do silly stuff, frightened of her own shadow on one hand and acting really fear aggressive on the other and really submissive to people (luckily!!!). I know it seems obvious, doesn't it. My current prob is just an extension of this. But... if you could see the dog now. Nobody would know what she was like before if they hadn't seen it at the time. She is stable and a great worker everywhere else, be it on the footy ground with footballs flying over her head and big guys jumping about (not kidding, I've trained quite a bit in this situation) to not even turning a hair at starting guns going off at kids sports days. Happy to work anywhere anytime cos she loves it... but in that one place, the trial ring on the actual day.

Quite by chance/coincidence I had a dog training client with exactly this problem today. She contacted me as the dog was under stress and exhibiting other behaviours and didn't connect the licking with it at all. When I got there the poor little dog went straight into lick mode - licking me, licking owner, licking air, licking nose. Then when excitement over, he settled down and stopped. Very interesting behaviour to watch but most uncomfortable for the dog, I imagine. We are now off to the vet and then a behaviourist in conjunction with dog training if no systemic problem found. Is this problem more common than I thought it was? I've only seen it once or twice before as a vet nurse.

Here's my two cents worth. I have never been a fan of head halters, only generally seeing dogs uncomfortable and learning nothing as the head collars are often used really as a restraint mechanism rather than a proper teaching aid. It's hard to get this across to people who are using them incorrectly. They often go back to the squashed up eyes on their dog and sore bridge of the nose as soon as you turn your back! However... there are some instances where I think they are a really seriously good bonus, when worn under strictly the right instruction. If you are an elderly person with a dog that is a handful, it is sometimes the only way you feel you can comfortably take your big bouncy retriever or whatever for a walk without feeling like you're going to have an accident. In these cases I'd recommend them to someone AS LONG AS they went with careful instruction and strict instruction to lead/obedience train them in a safe space like the back yard to teach them not to pull using other methods so that if necessary they can walk on a flat collar too. It's not always practical to suggest to people to use a pinch collar or even a regular correction chain as they see it as 'cruel' LOL. In reality, I think the head collar can be more dangerous to the dog's neck. But... lots will disagree with me. I would like to see ob clubs where head collars are used have the trainers correctly trained in how to use them. An experienced user, I'm sure, can teach their dog on a head collar without risk of harm to the dog or no learning taking place. It's just that like any tool, you probably have to know how to use it.

Hi everyone Thanks again:) Mrs D, I have not really tried out of sight stays with her yet, except at home where she does them fine. I have tried long distance stays in familar situations like packing up and putting stuff in the car at our local park while she is sitting quietly in a drop, watching me go back and forth at a distance. These go well. I haven't done any further though as was afraid of pushing her too far and mucking up her usually solid (except in trial ring where she has taken to sitting up or going down) stays. She is trained to UD in everything else but I've never dared push the stays LOL. I am thinking she wouldn't do them outside of the home though. The agility idea - at our small country club we actually do have a really good agility setup and are only missing the see-saw. We sadly only have me and the other regular instructors to help out on it though, nobody really experienced in competing in agility, but I have run Tess through plenty of times and she does LOVE it. I only have not taught her the elevated walkway as worried that my sometimes clumsy with excitement girl would have an accident. So was thinking of doing a low one at home. Weavers she's a bit slow on but does them and is getting better. It certainly is something to consider because she definitely does love it and, with only my training who doesn't have any background in agility at all, I dare to say she is quite good for a beginner with a trainer who has never done agility

While you're at the vet, find out if there is a good veterinary behaviourist in your area, or if they know of a good behaviourist/trainer. Hey, the good DOL folk reading this in your area might be able to suggest someone as I now see you're in QLD. The skin allergy could be adding to the anxiety prob and also if she is lacking something in her diet could too so good move going to the docs One thing though, Dr Holmes said in the lecture that if using drugs, don't go for Clomicalm for anxiety in dogs. He said he was very disappointed with it as an anti-anxiety for dogs - thought it was great for cats though LOL. The only reason I mention this is that I used to work for a vet for many years and clomicalm can sometimes be handed out willy-nilly. Pardon to any vets that read this!!! Good luck - tell us how you get on. These odd behaviours can be difficult to pin down but lucky your dog has an owner who is prepared to get to the bottom of it ;)

Feher, we both have problem GSDs LOL! One thing I can add here is I've just done a seminar with the veterinary behaviourist, Dr Robert Holmes. He was talking about dogs and anxiety (wish I'd been able to speak to him about my girl but no time as it wasn't appropriate being a classroom situation) and anyway he actually talked about licking and chewing. It is very self-rewarding because licking and chewing release the feel-good brain chemical, seratonin. If a dog is anxious, they will lick and chew a lot. Hence when working with a tug toy in drive training it is said the dog is relaxed when he holds the toy firmly in his mouth with no chewing and mouthing. What Dr Holmes suggested was Kongs. He suggests get several giant sized Kongs and feed the dog their daily food inside the Kongs. He said you have to teach them this a bit first. Then they spend their spare time feeling better. The other thing he suggested, which is a bit expensive, is a special stuff called Dog Appeasing Pheremone or DAP. It is a pheremone that comes from the mid-line of the bitch when she is lactating and is supposed to make the pups feel relaxed. needless to say I have some on order at my vet! It is like those little Glade plug-in air fresheners in that you plug it in and switch it on and it releases the pheremone into the air. It costs about a hundred bucks though. Still if you have a dog with a licking problem consider these things as well as the salt thing. He also uses prozac for severe anxiety problems but I personally am not into that. However, that's just me I guess. He also said always get a good dog trainer to help you with overall training for leadership etc. The other thing I'd do is, after getting her checked out by a vet to ensure she is fit and well, book in to see a good behaviourist. If you are in NSW you could go see K9 for sure. That is what I would do if I lived there!!! The thing is, I think ultimately we can teach our dogs how to relax by relying on us as strong leaders. A good behaviourist will help you with this. So have a look outside the square, find a good behaviourist and let us know how you go. Good luck!!! :rolleyes:

Ain't that the truth , IMO having a difficult dog can teach you more than reading 100 books on training can, getting experience with different breeds & different personalities of dogs can give you a very open mind about how to go about solving problems. There is lots of good advice in this thread already, IMO (& without seeing the dog myself) I think you & poodlefan have probably hit the nail on the head, It is you (or rather "was" you, you just didnt realise it) to me it sounds like she has connected you being nervous with the ring & has shut down because of it, is this the dog that you once said had huge issues if you couldnt look at her & have eye contact with her? (forgive me if Im wrong & I have the dogs or people mixed up ) You need to stop her from shutting down, I would be taking her to every trial I could get to & be working along the ring ropes making the work fun - but correct if necessary. And don't forget - baby steps. Good luck with her. Thanks Mrs D ;) Yep, youre right, this is the dog who really really needs to have eye contact with me to feel comfortable. Weird as if someone said that to me, I'd say it was kind of threatening or dominant to a dog and it is to most, but not to her. She needs it from me and I am trying to wean her off it a bit. I definitely am taking her to trials every chance I get and am going to try to make it more fun for her (without disturbing other competitors, of course ). I guess the only thing to do is to keep going, keep trying everything to make it all good for her and sooner or later the penny will drop that it's not so scary after all. Either that or she will end up knowing every judge and steward here in Vic from so many trials so well that she will feel like she's on home turf anyway and relax because of that ;)

Here is something else I have been pondering. When a dog is given a correction/consequence for not performing an action - be it no reward, trainer packing up and going inside, turning away from the dog with a frown and refusing to continue to interact, stern voice, physical leash corrections etc. if it is done correctly and consistently and the dog fully understands what's going on, I am thinking it probably reinforces in the dog's mind a sense of security in a way, because their leader is a strong leader who will not put up with any mucking around and as such, can provide safety and security in stressful situations. A leader who never offers any sort of consequence for not doing something isn't really a leader at all, are they. Incidentally, Steve K9s Triangle of Temptation... I always thought my dog was going well on this until I formally started at the beginning again. It's worth doing from the beginning every now and again just to brush up

My advice would also be to go see K9. I would also be going slowly, slowly, slowly with a poor pup that has had this kind of start. There could potentially be a whole grab-bag of issues in there just waiting to pop out and be solved, which is why a behaviourist will be better than just joining an ob club at first. I've had clients who have had really bad advice from well-meaning ob instructors (of which I am also one so I'm not dissing them!!!) simply because the instructors are trying to deal with lots of people and dogs at once sometimes. A one on one with a really good professional will save you a lot of work later on and give you lots of confidence. Good on you for taking on the pup!

Arya - i'm happy to volunteer . If you tell me where your next trial will be and i'm free, i'm happy to video you (lol - I can watch the open ring too and pick up some tips!). Hey, thanks LP! It's going to be at Hastings, I think... I have to see what the NDTF schedule is. I'll let you know

Poodlefan, I've just had a bit of a brainwave with your post. I swear, I'm not nervous when I go in the ring - LP will agree with that LOL BUT... and here's the big thing, I used to be terribly nervous, at first. Really the first couple of times BAD! Now after about nine trials I am not nervous because I am not expecting anything. This last time I actually went in there just hoping to get *some* good work out of the dog at some stage and determined to improve my walking etc. in the ring myself, to better myself in the ring. But, it is highly possible that the initial bad feelings of nerves I have had in the ring, body posture etc. has made my dog think it's a bad place to be, just in that situation alone, when there is an actual trial on. She acts like she hates it and wants to leave the ring first at the end of the stays. So maybe the initial experiences have imprinted badly on her. This would be one good explanation for sure.

Poodlefan, I was wondering if it was me and had a friend watch me closely when we were in the ring. She couldn't see anything I was doing at all. However, we have never worked up to twenty minutes in heeling under trial conditions to this point. The video thing in an actual trial is a good idea and I will see if I can get someone to video us. I have video of us in practice so I could compare that way. I'd LOVE it to be me!!! But even when I start to talk to her in the ring after we've blown so many points I know we've blown the heeling, she is still 'gone', staring vacantly off to the side. Will give it all a go though Thanks!

Thanks for the input everyone. I really appreciate it and all the different opinions on what to do, too. Everyone has different training philosophies, don't they. If nothing else I was thinking yesterday that running into the huge number of problems I've had with my darling dog since she was a pup will in the end make me a MUCH better trainer than I ever was before, as all the dogs I've had since I was a kid were relatively easy to train and easy to work with... from the rotti cross dobe thru to the bcollie cross. Then I got Tess LOL! I bet this happens to others too. I keep coming back to the comment K9 made to something I asked him at one stage around the start of this problem. 'Don't add pressure to pressure'. On the other hand, ---Also, if a dog is exhibiting behaviours indicating stress or shut down giving the dog praise, toys or treats can only serve to re-inforce the behaviour. It only takes once or twice and there you go - conditioned behaviour. To me, your dog must be getting some form of reward or reinforcement for the behaviour it is currently exhibiting in the ring. Perhaps this is simply the fact that initially you tried to "gee her up" with a toy or food (reward for unacceptable behaviour) and now it is perpetuated by the the lack of correction or other disincentives. [/color]Tangwyn, you could very well have a point here. I know a very good trainer who if the dog stuffs up, she asks to be excused from the ring as she doesn't want to reinforce the behaviour and she also doesn't want to give the dog any positive feedback for the stuff up. I saw her do it with her GSD bitch at a trial a couple of weeks ago. She is highly experienced and this is her method. I believe personally that correction does have a place, depending on what is going on with the dog. I will happily say that to shut down Tess's severe aggression towards other dogs I had to first use some pretty harsh corrections to stop her just as she began to activate, and then introduce a whole sort of plan around that to keep her working with me and build the relationship with her and leadership etc. etc. etc. and simply never tolerate aggression. This dog used to stand up on her hind legs and ROAR at other dogs. Someone else very experienced at the trial the other afternoon told me she needed a good correction too. However... I keep coming back to K9s comment about not adding pressure to pressure. I have put her back onto K9s triangle of temptation this week too, to see if it helps. And the conundrum is... how could a dog who is ringwise or playing up go from not wanting to work in the ring and totally switching off and doing wild displacement behaviour, to five minutes later working like a champion about a hundred metres away, still in the presence of other dogs? Why would she do it? She loves to work. It doesn't make sense. When Tess is naughty she does stuff like nicking off to people she knows and acts like a kid on red cordial LOL. Maybe she is thinking too much and needs the power to do that taken out of her hands. We shall see. BTW, LP, I was thinking that about the crate the way you do with Leo too. If I set up like you do and she is in the crate and watching everything and right there near the ring it might help. I will give this a go at the next trial as part of the strategy. I am thinking a session with K9 could help a lot!!! Thanks everyone

Bittymoopeeb, I agree with you that a dog dragged around on a tight lead shouldn't score as high as a dog on a loose lead that makes a few errors. But it's so subjective with the judges I'd stick with your thoughts and keep going the way you are going. As others have said, pulling a dog around teaches it nothing. Your dog has already learnt what's right and just needs to become more consistent with practice. You are on the right track so take comfort from that :D

Let's see if I can get this reply working better Dogdude! wWhen Ness orking in the switch "on" position, she is truly wonderfull to watch. Thank you! This is why I persist. She is so fantastic to work with every other time Are all of the other "prey" distractions at the trial her reward in lew of the restrictions that are placed on your normal reward system, being at the trial? I wonder about this. She looks across at other dogs running and doing stuff in other rings. It could be the case... it could also be a loss of drive. Drive disappears totally. It is weird. I can trigger it with a word everywhere else, every other time. But the fear is too much. There really is a demarkation line about five metres from the gate. Step back to the corner of the ring, or to the side of the ring and all is fine. In your training, do you reward her at the end of the session, or end of exercise? Both. I mix it up. I will reward her sometimes in the middle of a heeling pattern, or at the end of a whole run through, or at all sorts of different times so she never knows when it is coming. But she can wait and stay in drive for a whole run through. She has actually improved a lot with that lately. She knows the reward will come at some point from somewhere, be it from me or her target bag. And, in training, particularly with heeling, I am pretty sure that some of it is self-rewarding. Fast heeling at a run around an oval with total focus on me produces high drive and lovely work that she just wants to keep on doing. Like a runner pumping endorphins in a race I suppose. She's a lovely dog with far too much potential to cheer you up with once you get over the problem!! Thank you Hopefully this is just a bad phase she will pass through once I find the key to solving the problem!

Hmmm, LP, I mucked the above post up and all my replies are in the quote Thanks again!

A part of me just feels like giving up but on the other hand, I know there's a good run through in Tess somewhere, just waiting to come out LOL. Thanks for all your suggestions. I'll let you know how it goes

Hey Saltwood, try (if you have something safe and not too high to sit the dog on) raising the dog off the ground. If the dog is small you can sit him/her on a box. Not high so they might hurt themselves when they get off but just high enough so that if they drop the treat, they have to get off to get it. It gives you time to get the treat before the little bu%$$rs can snaffle it LOL. Whatever they are on, they have to feel secure though. Hence not too high. You never know, it might work for you!

Thanks everyone I have tried not talking and had success. She works better if I talk but still fine if I don't. She knows the routine like the back of her paw LOL. However... it maybe would help if I got more people she didn't know to give us a mock run-through. I could try this. The other thing I've even thought of trying is seeing if I could get a friend she knows to actually handle her for me in the ring. If she worked for them maybe it is an issue with me? It would be awful in one way to see her work for someone else in that situation when she won't work for me in the ring, but at least it would help show where the problem lies. The quiet in training I could try even more, I guess. I could make it all quiet except for commands every time in training, with every single thing she knows and rely more on body language. Hmmm. Lots to think about...

I trialled my GSD bitch on the weekend again for a total bomb-out again. This makes nine trials in Novice where we are well prepared, have trained lots around other dogs, trained in ring, even set up ring at home and in different parks etc and played in it to put the dog at ease and yet, each time we step into that trial ring the dog goes to pieces. Really badly. Really. Nothing seems to be working. She is not being naughty. She warms up beautifully at the side of the ring. Get to five metres towards the gate to go in and she starts to look away from me. Her eyes glaze over. Nothing can get her back. Not cajolling. Not trying to switch her into drive with her trigger word. Not a correction with the slip chain. Nothing. In the ring, works like she's not had any training. Even forgets to sit. Stands there sometimes and stares around. In the stays, buggers them up too, dropping etc. When the leads go back on, she desperately tries to pull to the gate to get out. I have had people watch and assure me that it's not me, I look fine. I feel fine. I've given up being nervous after so many times. I just hope for something good during the run through. Lots of displacement behaviour from her like yawning, sniffing the air and ground. Has anyone had this happen and do they have any suggestions on how to get her over it? She isn't getting any better. She is a brilliant worker on any other occasion. But in the ring, she knows I can't talk to her. She has two unknown people in there in the form of judge and steward. She sees other dogs working to either side of her. What do I do? Retire her? Any thoughts much appreciated. It's getting me down

Well said Rom!!! I couldn't agree more.

I was witness, Leo was a STAR!!!! A title in two double trials is a real achievement. He did a great job and so did his handler. :D :D Lookout everyone in Open, here comes Leo!!! The only thing I am sad about is now I can't kidnap him and bring him down to Phillip Island with me LOL. His mum would know where he'd gone.

Yeah, that woman really got offended when I told her that he wasn't making that much noise and they should have been able to stand it. He he. What silly old B$^#*%!!! Geez, the best distraction of all that day were the little pigs running around in their pen in the property next to the grounds. Hilarious! IMHO, balls, other people, animals, etc. are a part of life. Dogs sitting a metre apart is much more stressful for the dog than anyone outside the ring doing anything. Not to mention that these two incidents were at Berwick where it wasn't just a rope but a chain link fence between us and the competitors!! Probably just someone jealous of Leo ;)

great question - looking forward to other people's replies on this as I am such a novice on agility!!! The method I have used with my dog is to position myself up close to one side of the poles and lure her through with my hand, as my dog will target my hand. Then use my knee to gently (really, just to block her from going off) nudge her through the next bit. And also started with just a couple of poles and built up on it. I'm sure there's much better ways even though this is working quite well :D

Rom, I wonder at a system that requires this type of stay!!!! This is a point I've made before and I TOTALLY agree with you Cosmolo. It's not the right setup at all. it is asking for trouble and totally against the dog's nature and places a heck of a lot of stress on them. I wonder that Schutzhund is such a dirty word to some people at VCA Obedience trials, yet things like the stays in Schutzhund are so much more in tune with the dog and what we teach them. Couldn't VCA adopt a similar stays policy? I guess they don't because it would involve running much bigger rings or basically two rings for the one class at the same time. But they could do it with a smaller 'stays' ring for one dog and handler at a time. We aren't expected to do heeling with someone else doing the same exercise beside us, are we. I too wouldn't give a damn if it stuffed things up, if a dog fight broke out in my ring I'd be over to my dog like a shot. I've worked too long and too hard to get her comfortable enough to sit near other dogs than to have some other dog sniffing her and starting a fight, or have her watch a fight down the other end of the line and be expected to sit there motionless while it goes on. It does their heads in, if you ask me.