Arya

Rexy, I did not see you!!! Sorry!!! I thought Hastings club put on a great day and the grounds were in excellent condition too, in spite of the rain we had. It really was an excellently run trial imho :p A couple of results - I'm sure Glorybea wouldn't mind me bragging on her behalf... she got a wonderful second place in Novice Bitch with her little girl and a great pass too I am happy to report a great improvement in my girl. Working backwards she stuck her stays, did great change of position, recall, stand for exam (no nervous licking the judges for a change and not even one paw moved LOL) and in her heeling, she started to fall apart so desperate times call for desperate measures and I had to talk to her a bit to get her around. The result of this was by the end of the heeling pattern she was much happier (though the poor judge wasn't.... ever had the feeling of points dribbling away as you do the run-through? LOL) But she understood and I had warned her we were having lots of probs before we started. So we are on the up and up Some other great performances on the day. In fact, I think the lady who won our ring got 197! Lovely trophies with GSDs on the top (wouldn't have minded one of them) too. Anyone know any other DOLers results?

Hmmm, fibreglass, this is very interesting. Not healthy! I am checking out the Kong ones but lately I have started to switch from tennis balls more onto hoses in training. Boy, this is working well as I can interact more closely with my dog and pick her up and swing her around with them a bit and do tug and stuff, as well as throw them. Trouble is, have gone through a few different kinds of hose finding some that German Shepherd teeth don't destroy Currently plastic washing machine hose pipe seems to be the go. Hopefully she don't pull her teeth out with me swinging her around LOL.

YAAAY! Congratulations and well done :p

I am a very big fan of schutzhund/ipo indeed. I feel that if schutzhund were brought out into the open and the reasons behind the character work explained to the general public, and the dogs with stability of temperament it seeks to promote and help produce from a breeding point of view, it would be fantastic. Yes, the GSDCA have just gone through a debacle over this. I was very saddened by some of the rubbish that took place about it. I believe Britain has changed some of its laws regarding Schutzhund and Schutzhund has been taken into their appropriate canine control organisation and legitimised more recently there. Can anyone confirm this?

Okay, here's my bit. I think the prong collar, when a person is instructed on how to use it correctly, is by far the safest collar around to use on at least a big dog. I think it should be legalised. As mentioned on a previous thread before, the way the prong collar works means that it cannot be tightened past a certain point, unlike a regular check chain. In addition to this, because there is 'give' in it when it contracts as a check as being applied, it is much less likely to send a dog flying backwards (as I have seen unskilled trainers do with both a flat collar and regular check chain) than a flat collar. It is safer and far easier to use than a halti, that can get caught in a dog's mouth if not fitted exactly correctly, if a dog pulls backwards (I personally have seen this happen more than once) and if a dog gets away on a halti with a lead flying behind it, it can do serious neck damage if it accidentally stands on the lead and gives itself a hard check. The appearance of the prong collar is a great aversive to people, but they need to look past this. Let's face it, there's a potential for abuse with any piece of training equipment from, at its most ridiculous, a soft collar made from material, right through to e-collars. Abuse occurs through lack of education of the handler, NOT the piece of equipment. Prong collars deliver a quick, effective pinch to the dog in just the same way as a bitch would reprimand her pups. The dog understands this. The dog gets the message accordingly. The dog does not need constant checking with the collar and the message gets through a heck of a lot quicker than with a regular check chain, where it tightens up quickly when the dog lunges forward and provides no 'check' in the process. Just a choke. Here's an example which I have also seen not long ago, regarding safety of the prong collar. I know of a dog who was a habitual puller and liked to leap about on a regular check chain. Very headstrong, even though owner constantly battled to train this dog. He was high drive, young, high action GSD. A really full on individual. This GSD would then, after training, be in some discomfort around the neck. This was shown by him constantly licking his lips and salivating slightly. Vet could find nothing wrong, however. Then swapped to a prong collar. Pressure alleviated around the neck, licking and salivating stopped. Much more humane. You could argue that training with other equipment would have fixed this problem and yes, eventually it would. But what damage done to the dog physically in the meantime? For people who own high drive, full on dogs the prong collar whe used effectively can save months of heartache and produce a happy dog and owner team who don't look back. I'm all for it.

ohhh good luck Arya. hopeing for a pass for you then come say hi when u get a chance, always happy to meet new DOLers Thank you Rexy, will do!!!

LP, check out K9s comment as it's an important one. Using tug as a reward is a reward but training in drive is something amazing imho and a real skill to learn for handler and dog which I am barely, very barely, just beginning to get a handle on LOL. Did you tell me you had the Leerburg DVD Training Drive Focus and Grip? The drive section I found very interesting to watch and play around with with my dog. It is hard work for the dog, really hard work. But once they start to do it, BOY do they focus well. K9s next drive workshop down here is on my must do list. If you don't have the DVD see me at the next trial or PM me for details on it. I use food rewards for tricks and food rewards in regular ob training too. This is because my skill and my dog's skill when working truly in drive is simply not good enough by a long shot...yet. I really really love it

To teach speak, as others have said you just need to 'capture the moment'. Be ready, keep some treats in your pocket. Have a think about when your dog barks and try to set him up. Be prepared and when he does, say 'speak' and treat. 'Speak' and treat. Hey they get it really quickly as barking can be quite a self-rewarding exercise... as those who are trying to stop it know!!! Speaking is one of my dogs favourite exercises and hilariously, if she is at training or at a trial or somewhere and she hears someone else say 'speak', she will do it just in case someone will reward her. Can be embarrassing... LOL. Good luck! Once they get it, it pretty well sticks with them and they don't forget.

Oh, for God's sake PLEASE don't let this degenerate into another 'for' and 'against' prong collars slanging match. It seems to me that Erny is trying to do something professional and responsible about prong collars. If people want to slang off about them then go away and start another thread for that!!! Erny, back to the topic, I suggest also including any information about the actual physics of the prong collar itself. The way the links are designed and how, unlike a regular slip chain, it cannot be pulled tighter than the circle created by the number of links and the martingale, and can be adjusted by addition and removal of the links to create a correct fit for each dog's neck. I have had a hunt about the web and can't find any paperwork on this, however. There is a chiropractic vet in Cranbourne, I think, who might have something on this. I don't know. But it seems to me it's an important point. Another suggestion. How about an invitation to relevant authorities to see the collars in action. Would this be a risky thing to do, in case demonstrators incurred penalties? If so, perhaps videos could be presented. Another suggestion, perhaps Melbourne University Vet Clinic might be able to give you some statistics on collapsing tracheas in older large dogs, possibly exacerbated by years of pulling on flat collars or correction chains. I know you want to be careful that regular correction chains don't come under scrutiny but if you include flat collars, which can cause probs too, maybe this would deflect such a problem? Just a few thoughts.

I am going. Another shot at Novice and am feeling more hopeful this time :rolleyes: Lots of happy work been going on the past couple of weeks so we shall see. Will look out for you Rexy!

Im with LP on this. Click treat or marker word and treat for a good stand every time. Go back to basics. Also, see if you are subtly changing your voice in a negative way on the stands as you may be accidentally doing so cos you are trying to get him to do it straight and concerned that he isn't. I'm guilty of this at times. Then it rocks over into the stand for exam. I am working on stand for exam issues at the moment (why???? they were fine before... sigh). Back to basics with lots of treats all over the place, before I leave the dog, when I'm doing it, when I return. Doing them myself. Hey, it's made a good difference and those paws are staying in the right place so it might help your dog like them more. on regular stands have a look at your hand signal and see if it is coming down from above in a way that the dog is being bothered by it. I caught myself doing this. Wondered why the dog was turning her head away and standing crooked and that was it.

LP it's a bit off-topic but do you clicker train your kitty too? I do too. Have you tried targetting with your kitty? A whole other thread really but I'd love to know how others compare training their cats to their dogs this way. My cat is funny - she is good but SLOW. The thing is, she thinks she's really FANTASTIC. It's hilarious... she's been watching the dog too long, I think!

PS you do this in one smooth movement, not two movements. Then you shorten the movement until you aren't moving at all any more, your hands are just in the right position as the dog comes in. So the finished position is all still as the dog comes in and the dog just automatically drops into place. Doesn't take long to train in a dog that has already been taught fronts and just has the position wrong - crooked, bumping, whatever. Anyway, see if it works for you.

LP, you may have already done this but if so, how about taking a step backwards and trying again. Stick a bit of food between your middle and index finger of one hand (I use my right) and fold your hands in front a little away from your body and down low. As your girl comes in, guide her with your hands with the food in. She will stop when she gets to the hands and food. Then draw your hands up your body like drawing a line up your middle to the height you want your hands. Only let her have the food when she is in the exact position. If she bumps you and isn't in the right position, tell her no, take a step back and do a mini come in and repeat. Then she will get exactly where to have her head and body to get the reward. But you use the hands to guide her to the right spot and stop her bumping you but still getting her head in the right position. Give her the food only when she is looking at you. She will drive to get it out of your hand but have it secure and don't let her steal it LOL. See if it works. It worked well with Tess. Plus having the legs slightly apart like already suggested helped too. With me, the only time this breaks down for some reason is in dumbell and I am working on a solution to get perfectly straight sits using this method with dumbell too. See how you go and hope it helps anyway

will do, will get my sister to upload a video of Tess tricks to her site some stage soon as I can't do it with my old computer. Tricks are heaps of fun but the socks off one she really loves... guess cos she gets to pull my socks which was a no-no as a pup ;)

Okay, I have had experience watching a circus trainer train regular sized pigs, if that helps LOL ;) The pigs seemed to be just as easy to teach as a dog. This lady had a whole 'three little pigs' routine with her giant pigs and a tiny grey poodle. It was hilarious. They are pretty smart, I can tell you that much! I never actually trained them myself, just watched how she did it. She used rewards and everything just like dogs.

PF this is a bit off topic but the elevated stress level thing, particularly with scent discrimination. I've noticed this lots at trials with scent discrimination. Dogs barking, dogs running in circles before getting down to doing the job. Dogs looking worried and uncertain. Do you think this could be a confidence thing with regard to learning to scent out objects? I wonder this because I do believe it's extremely easy to rush teaching this exercise and for the dog to lose confidence because of it. I spent absolutely ages teaching my dog scent discrimination. She will also do a trick of scenting out letters from a group of letters to spell stuff as an extra to the regular UD stuff. But... when I was teaching I noticed if she was uncertain she would grip the articles so tightly she'd almost break them, so I went back a step when this happened and made it easier. Result... lots of slow improvement and now a dog who does these easily and also helped a lot for confidence in using nose in seek back. So do you think with that particular exercise it is the exercise itself, or the fact that we are asking the dog to work alone without directions from the handler beside them?

Day to day she goes everywhere!!! I train her around at different parks and ovals where i live and also take her up to busy situations at shops and stuff. I do think though that after taking her to a larger ob club on the weekend than the one close to where we live, she needs more time in real trial situations with lots and lots and lots of strange dogs and people around. I am just doing basically everything to socialise her to the situation that I can. I do give her training time off but she really hates that! LOL. Plus I vary her training extensively with the aim of not letting her get bored doing any particular thing. This is how we have ended up with a whole tricks show and training exercises up to UD so there is always something new and fun each week, interspersed with lots of ball, tug toy and treats. I am now really looking forward to the next trial to see what happens this time after all the advice!!!

He he, gorgeous Leo in action again This trick sounds great. It isn't one I've taught and like the socks one I'm going to give it a go!!! I bet this would work for 'rabbit ears' too if the tape was put behind.

This is a good thread with lots of opinions Here's mine... I am happy to use a really really good correction for unwanted behaviour outside of training, like dogs aggressing at other dogs (where appropriate, depends on the situation and dog and has to be thought about wisely before entering into). In training, it depends on the dog's temperament and lots of other stuff. Do they know the exercise really well? Am I SURE they know it well? If so, are they misbehaving/ refusing to do the behaviour because they are throwing down a challenge or are they refusing to do it because of some other factor, like fear? Or simply can't be bothered as the reward isn't good enough? A really hard dog who is arcing up and being a s!@#t as a challenge, yes, a beauty. A dog who doesn't know what they are doing yet, never. A dog who does know what they are doing but isn't doing it for fear or nerves - like K9 said, don't add pressure to pressure. A dog who is unproofed and needs to know they must concentrate - sometimes. They can be given a choice. Do it and all is great fun and lots of treats, rewards etc. Don't do it and you get a little cxn on the chain. Appropriate behaviours chosen wisely for each dog. It's all good. The only thing I can't tolerate is extremes either way. Too positive or too negative. I've seen examples of both at times. I try to be wise and make the choice based on lots of factors ( I hope I get it right but am still learning! LOL). My aim as a trainer is to make the training so good I don't need to correct during it because the dog is loving it. Of course, with different dogs this just doesn't work all the time. I hope it's a good aim though. But they do need to know there's a consequence imho if we are sure they are just being disobedient and it's not something else, whether verbal or physical whatever depending on the dog.

CTD I love your tricks!!! I have taught my dog lots of tricks and just did your 'take the socks off' one with her yesterday. Hilarious and she loves it

Hi Emmala, both your way and cassie's way has worked for me in the past. The other way is to gently push one shoulder when they are sitting and put them slightly off balance. The minute a paw goes up, you 'capture' it. The other thing is, check your 'line of communication' with the dog with all tricks, obedience etc. Do you use a marker word as well as a treat? So, when she lifts her paw up you would say 'yes' or some other word and quickly reward. So 'yes' equals treat coming. Or you use a clicker and click and treat. I dont use a clicker for trick or ob training but lots do and I know lots of people teach their dogs tricks using a clicker to mark behaviours with great success. Good luck

Sure going to try LP!!! We shall see what happens at next trial... but she's working so well at the moment that surely some of that will come thru on the day. Cross fingers!

Hi LP Initially I did and I think this has compounded the problem. It's not what I'm doing in the ring now but what I was doing in the ring before and she hasn't forgotten, being the smart girl she is. I did expect her to but now, I just expect to get SOMETHING good during the run through. I hope to see better heeling, or a good stand for exam etc. etc. I guess it's true to say I don't go in there expecting to pass at all, or even do reasonably well at all. Do you think this might be a contributing factor?

Yes, she sure is Lablover. I guess it is part of her temperament, genetic I feel looking at her breeding, so will always be there but well hidden now. She has improved out of sight in the last twelve months. Used to exhibit really bad dog aggression, do silly stuff, frightened of her own shadow on one hand and acting really fear aggressive on the other and really submissive to people (luckily!!!). I know it seems obvious, doesn't it. My current prob is just an extension of this. But... if you could see the dog now. Nobody would know what she was like before if they hadn't seen it at the time. She is stable and a great worker everywhere else, be it on the footy ground with footballs flying over her head and big guys jumping about (not kidding, I've trained quite a bit in this situation) to not even turning a hair at starting guns going off at kids sports days. Happy to work anywhere anytime cos she loves it... but in that one place, the trial ring on the actual day. Arya, You have obviously worked very hard, trying to settle her demons. I doubt she will ever be a easy champion of the world obedience dog. Could she be a good competitor? I do not see why not, as you have already achieved somuch with her. How fast does she bounce back after going into avoidance? What do you consider her level of drive? Low, moderate, high? Are you consistently trying to amp her up, at training? Is she fun to train, or a chore? Fun from a level to 0 to 10, 10 being the highest? What is her level of "fun" while you train her 0 to 10? Hi Lablover, It's so weird, she bounces back pretty much immediately after going into avoidance. I wouldn't have thought she could but it's like a switch. Side of ring, switch is off, five metres from gate, switch goes on!!! I had her at a big club yesterday though and noticed it appear in the stays. Methinks on the advice of someone with a similar dog who saw it, maximum socialisation is going to be a key to get over this Training... boy, I would retire her except for the fact that she absolutely loves it and it is a true pleasure to work her because of her level of drive and enthusiasm. I'd give her 11 out of 20 for enthusiasm and her level of fun is very very high, whether training or playing in between sessions. She will drag her training bag out and gets antsy if we don't go. Mention training and she jumps about like a loony LOL. I don't have to amp her up very much to train at all. Really, none once she sees that bag But you're right, she'll never be an easy competitor but hopefully a good one eventually.