Arya

BMP, just a tip for whichever hand signals you choose, for CCD and all work Choose the hand signal and start off big... exaggerated. Then as the dog learns it cut the signal back and back smaller and neater until you have it just the right neat size if you know what I mean. Take a look at others when you go to a trial. Take particular notice of Open competitors and also Signal in UD to see good ones. I am currently changing my drop on recall signal to a push forward flat palm in front of my body and as others say, try to make signals that change your body's sillhouette. My dog is quite advanced at signals but because I am working on one that is in FRONT of my body and not as obvious you'd be surprised how hard it is and the difference it makes. I just want this signal though, so am making life difficult for my dog LOL.

I believe he has just been in Vic doing a lecture for NDTF. I have a friend who attended and she's been in dogs for more than 30 years and has been to lots of different lectures/seminars and she said his was the best she'd ever attended.

Thanks everyone for your input! I was aware of the pull power but had the lead up close to minimise this and know about fishing line, having fished for years LOL. The cutting power of that stuff means I've never recommended it to any people at my club for such work but decided to give it a go myself. Interested to read all your views. Kelpie-i, you might like to know I now feel you were spot on. It was an experiment and yes, experiments need to go for longer than a couple of weeks but I must say that the use of this tool provided absolutely no change when the dog was put under pressure in the ring in a test situation yesterday. SO scrap that idea and back to the drawing board LOL. Am now working on further coping strategies such as exposing to lots more dogs around as we work (as if we weren't doing this before... but now even more so) and hey, just hanging in there and using advice we've been given and remembering that we've had lots of improvement so far anyway. But I thought I'd give it a go, always open to new ideas. I can categorically say this one doesn't work that well though LOL.

Instead of a regular lead, a lead attached to a belt around your waist. So you don't use your hands to keep the dog with you, they are attached to your middle

Hi all, I have made an umbilical lead for my GSD girl from heavy duty fishing line (careful of finger with this stuff!) and a heavy duty belt and clip. My reasoning behind this is not just to have both hands free. I am trying to get my girl to realise that the safest place in times of stress is by my side, even when times are the most stressful for her (think trial ring!). In day to day life, if she is worried about something she comes racing back to me for security but in the trial ring, she still has episodes of dissociative behaviour (human term, I guess you'd really call it displacement behaviour in doggy terms), even though she is improving out of sight. I am trying to get that last little niggle ironed out in the nicest, kindest way for thedog. I want her to stick with me and feel happiest there at my side and use this as a coping mechanism in times of worst stress. Hence the umbilical lead when out and about. I also think it will eliminate any subconscious tightening of the lead on my part and make me walk better with the dog, if any nervousness is caused by poor skills by me as a handler. Fishing line cos it's light and not too obvious, though I have it plaited at the moment for added strength. Anyone's experiences with umbilical lines would be much appreciated. I know the famous 'Monks of New Skeet' in America who train GSDs use an umbilical line and they are great trainers. Any thoughts?

Rom - it was a line of thought. An exploration of idea. Never silly. This is how 'new' ideas are born. .....so I hope that I don't annoy any one by following the thought through a little more But since you're actually starting with a light weight and moving to a heavier weight, wouldn't you be desensitising instead of sensitising? I'll admit that I don't fully understand sensitisation yet and how you go about achieving it for those applications where you need to sensitise a dog to a stimuli. Its probably something that I've done in training at some point....but I don't know the science behind it. So I could be way off mark here. Arya, I started teaching my girl the heel as a pup in a similar fashion to what you've outlined. But then we had a training accident and unfortunately it was during her critical period. I was luring her into position and rewarding and she got really excited when she finally understood what I was asking her. I leant down to reward, she anticipated the treat and leapt up to get it....in a one in a million shot, she hooked one of her puppy canines into the pad of my finger...I stood up and had 16 kg of pup hanging off my finger by one tooth. In that instant, with the shock I flicked my hand to get her off...I did it without even thinking....I hurt her and scared the hell out of her....it broke my heart. Also made a mess of my finger! We had issues with her heeling wide after that and luring alone wasn't enough to bring her back in. So I went to a lead to help encourage her back in. Oh, ROM what a terrible freak accident! So sorry that happened and during the critical period too I see why you use the lead. Watch that the lead doesn't become a kind of 'safety zone' for the dog though. A stimuli that when it goes on that is the heeling position and nowhere else but when off, the dog moves away. Maybe someone else has written this, haven't read all the following posts. What about kind of reprogramming her by playing with her gently with your hands a lot outside of formal heeling and making your hands the focus of play (Iknow some people don't like this as we discourage dogs mouthing hands etc but hey, I think when done correctly this works without causing problems)... hands loaded up with yummy treats. Then asking for a tiny heel in the middle of playing. Then gentle gentle hands a lot of stroking etc (which I'm sure you do anyway). You may be able to get past it that way, even though critical period issue you may be able to reprogramme the dog. Wow, that's a problem to have to work on!!!

I have seen Steve Austin work with dogs. He is brilliant! Any time he has a seminar, well worth going.

Hi all, for those who don't generally check the rescue forum if anyone is interested, please have a look in there. I have a wonderful GSD bitch that desperately needs a new home (no, not my little blighter!!! LOL... ). This is a serious situation though and any help would be appreciated. This bitch has wonderful pedigree, is speyed and would with a little work make a fabulous obedience dog. She has great working show lines. Some of her relations have done well in the trial ring. Thanks

BMP, it sounds like youre on the right track with the playing in the ring thing. here is some brilliant advice that was given to me by someone who has earnt 200points in the ring in dog trials and won all sorts and who I have the utmost respect for. Never confuse this behavior with naughtiness or let anyone tell you it is naughtiness. Play in the ring. Get others to walk thru the ring while you are working. Get even others with dogs on leads to walk through the ring, cross in front of you, get in your way. Then when you are playing in the ring chuck in the odd 'heel' and even if she is unhappy just don't make a big deal of it, just go back to playing. you will gradually work her thru it with time, with luck. GOOD LUCK!!! This advice is slowly working for me. It can take a long time but it will work in the end. It is a nice way to make your dog happy and get your dog to get used to others around in the ring and see the ring as a good happy place where good stuff takes place. Poor little dog, I'm really sorry that happened to her and to you!!!

BMP, to me also sounds like classic displacement behaviour. The dog does weird things that actually look very naughty but it is the dog's way of dealing with extreme stress they are feeling. So air scenting, sniffing the ground, looking away from you when every other bl$(#y time they can't take their eyes off you. Forgetting their name. Forgetting commands. Sudden interest in dog in next ring. Sudden urge to get to friends they know are *somewhere* on the ground. Whatever you do don't mistake this for naughtiness or let ANYONE ever convince you she's being naughty, lazy etc. It's extreme stress. I am experiencing the exact same thing with my GSD bitch in the ring at trials at the moment. It's awful to deal with. Best I can suggest is to start right back at the beginning with a lot of stuff. You won't take long to reestablish where you were up to but if you don't go back to square one it will not work in many instances. Sounds like you didn't do enough with the stays from what you wrote. Don't just sit her on her own. Sit her on her own with you right in front of her, no distance at all. Forget about passes, they will come when your dog is happy and then they will proabably RAIN down on you LOL Listen, if it's any consolation I had a terrific day with my girl at a trial on Sat and then on the Sun everything went right out the window and back to square one. Couldn't even remember her name. I'm trialling a dog in Obedience in Novice that is trained up to most UD excercises. I haven't got a pass so I'm now taking the option of returning to CCD so I can work on lead to give her security, as the lead disconnection makes her worse. We all have BAD days with our darling dogs. Good luck! You'll get there

Are you the person from Melbourne trialling your Shar-Pei? If so, congratulations as a lovely dog that works well ;) I would love to see more out there in the trial ring

I see the principle behind what you say. I don't know how it would work with a dog though. What happens when you remove the lead? I think it's an interesting idea. I prefer to teach heeling with NO lead. Lure the pup into the correct position and instantly reward. My theory behind this is that it creates an association right in the beginning that the heeling position is the FUN place to be. So forever more the dog will think of that position as cool. So walk around, when the dog hits the good spot, release the dog and reward. Then do again and again, taking more steps in correct position. I must say this is not how I taught my own dog but I refined her heeling in this manner from average to really good in a short time (except in the trial ring where her brains just fly out her ears and she forgets her own name LOL). BUT, I recently helped some folk to teach their GSD pup using this method and was shocked at how great it worked. Then hookon the lead and away you go ;) What do others do?

BMP, I really really feel for you and am very sorry indeed that this has happened to your poor little dog. I find during stays in comps sometimes people look wary of putting their smaller dogs next to my GSD in the line and you know, I can't blame them at all! (If only they knew what a relief as my dog is a cowardy custard on the stays and feels much happier sitting between two little dogs for this reason LOL). I agree with others, go back to beginning with stays. I would not put my dog in stays in the test if the trainer won't let you do them on your own. If the trainer won't let you do this then I would seriously considser looking for another club. My advice. Start at the beginning with a pocket heaped full of favourite treats. Return to the dog EVERY TEN SECONDS, rewarding her holding position, saying 'good stay'. When she is happy to do this for a minute on her own, take her out somewhere like a shopping centre with added distractions but not dogs and tie her to a post and do a formal stay with her, continuing to reward her. When you are happy that she can do her stays on her own and in an area of distraction, then back to trying around other dogs. Sit twice or three times the distance from other dogs in the line. Then go back to the start again. Reward, beginning. Treat like you haven't done all the previous work without dogs. Only sit with dogs she knows at first. Only sit with reliable dogs. Your club/dog school should be supportive of this. No aggressive dog should be allowed in stays in training on a line long enough to get to others in the stays. I'm so sorry this has happened to you. I saw this happen once at my club, where a dog got away in one class and attacked a dog in another class doing stays. It took AGES for the dog that was attacked to come good. Hope you get some ideas from this post anyway. These are the tips that have helped me.

If I am using food during a training session rather than just training in prey drive, I do more or less exactly the same as LP and I can tell you, LP is a great trainer!!! However, I have two different value rewards. I have treats in my pocket which get doled out during training intermittently for presenting excellent examples of behaviours I'm asking for, or improvements. Not a constant schedule of treats for everything unless it's a new behaviour/exercise I'm teaching. OR UNLESS ITS A COMPLEX TRICK> if it's a trick, I reward every single time as tricks often involve a series of complex behaviours and require a constant level of reward, as well as a marker word imho. But during obedience I'm same as LP but I keep a hose tucked down my back pocket, or tucked behind my back through my jeans belt, to be drawn out and thrown and used as a tug when Tess brings it back as super end of excercise reward or really good job or when working on an exercise where I am building drive to return and go out, such as dumbell. Pull the hose out like you might pull arrows out from off your back LOL. I've recently swapped to hoses over tennis balls on the advice of a friend and found them far superior to tennis balls as they are more interactive as you can both throw and grab two hands and have a good tug. Won't fit in your treats bag though LOL.

A bit OT but does Leo still have that great Kong squeaky ball intact? I got Tess one yesterday and she promptly worked out where the squeaker was positioned in the ball and punctured it, even through the tennis ball material!!! Then (and I can't believe she did this) she tried and tried to get it to keep squeaking and when it wouldn't she lay down on the floor on her side and refused to play with any of her toys at all Learned helplessness??? Or... a kiddie tantrum. The latter, I think! So off to the shop for a more robust one if I can find it today

I just LOVE finding bits of old treats floating around in the washing machine...YUK! Reminds me I was a vet nurse and some years ago we had a boxer with an intestinal blockage. He had to be operated on and what was inside him? A plastic bag a little bigger than a fist secured at the top with an elastic band, full of small bits of raw bone, chicken necks or something!!! The bag was completely intact... Motto - careful where you keep your treats. That far out of sight not good (The dog was fine after bag removal btw)

I used to use a buckle on treat bag/bum bag all the time for treats. you can also get the Black Dog ones at a reasonable price. But as I trial my dog, I have given up using a treat bag. I now wear something with pockets in at all times. This way when I trial the dog doesn't notice I'm not wearing a treat bag. you can't wear a treat bag in the ring LOL. So, consider what you want to do with your dogs. if you are thinking of trialling I would stick to a pocket. I believe Black Dog also have slip in pouches especially for pockets. Haven't used them myself though. Someone else might have though. I just put up with having to wash dirty pockets LOL.

imho, HS top quality stainles steel ones are the way to go. The stainless steel links somehow seem to feel different to the others and the martingale chain moves much smoother. My collar is not as thick as some that I have seen but is perfect for my 28kg GSD bitch. A heavier one would be overkill and I don't think work as well either. But the steel quality I reckon is highly important. Think of the links moving all the time. If the steel is average quality the movement won't be smooth and more likely to come undone. Plus, as it degrades over time the same thing will happen. Just a few thoughts ;)

Also depending on where you are there is Frankston Dog Obedience in Mclelland Drive in Frankston - sort of between Fston and Cranbourne really. Then there is Hastings Obedience Dog Club if you are further over Hastings way. I have also heard that the AMAZING AMAZING trainer Luke Hura is looking to set up a dog school somewhere around Pakenham in the near future. I really hope he is!!! Has anyone heard about this ( a little OT!!!). Just go to a whole lot of schools and pick the one that suits you, as per the other thread. Lots and lots of schools in south east, you are lucky ;)

Myska, that collar looks really nice on your dog!!!

I've never had a prong collar come off. However, in saying this (and I hope someone further up hasn't already said this as I haven't read all the posts so far), mine is the expensive HS stainless steel one. It is not the chrome plated one. I wonder if the links aren't quite as good on the chrome plated ones, or they don't move as well with the chrome plating, or the steel under them isn't as well sprung thus predisposing them more to disconnecting? I have heard that any can come off but what I have done is connected a black dog soft cloth collar loose, further down my dog's neck at times. Since the prong sits up high it does not interfere. What it does mean, however, is that if I want to tie her up somewhere I can hook her to the soft collar. My advice would be to check each link carefully each time you use your prong. I wash and dry mine with a soft cloth because living near the beach I want to ensure that the ss is still fine. It's not marine grade, after all LOL. It gives a chance also to make sure all links are working well and the martingale is running smoothly. Just like horse equipment, we need to check all our doggy stuff regularly too :D

Ravensmyst00, firstly let me say I have nothing against cxn chains/slip chains at all and use one myself. But I must own up and say I have spent some time at several ADT centres and the only time that flat collars were used was on agility or in puppy classes. That was my experience and it is all I can go by, but I have spent years in dogs and have seen lots at other clubs too, so am not coming to this from a beginners angle. I didn't like the way cxn chains were used there. As far as the forced drop goes, compulsion is preferred at some centres rather than luring. This was my experience at more than one ADT centre. I am NOT criticising ADT here as I know many people, as stated before, have great success at their centres and love them. I am simply stating my personal experience. I do believe that you must fit the training method to the dog and did find that it is a 'one size fits all' at ADT with regard to use of food and motivators, or lack of appropriate use. I queried this extensively in my time there. I was not happy there. BUT, I will state again that this is only MY opinion and others think very differently and are very happy there. This is one of the reasons I think it's so important for new handlers to visit lots of different clubs/centres and see lots of different training methods in action and see trainers training their own dogs. Then they can make judgements about what is best for them. :D For some ADT will be the best way to go. For others, it may be a more 'purely positive' as it is called, approach to training. For others it may be something else that suits them. For me, I like a highly motivated dog, working in drive for me. But I competition train as well as tricks train. Cheers

Okay, if you are looking at somewhere to do positive training without use of correction chains it's a shame you aren't a bit further north, towards the airport. There is a good one I've had some experience of at Diggers Rest. I think it's called Four Paws. They do luring, postive stuff. Way over the other side of the city from me unfortunately. You really will have to look around closely as if you want to train in this manner there are several that frown on the use of food, though they are still good clubs! I personally prefer food, toys, any motivator. NEVER let anyone talk you out of this imho. It's not just for use with beginner dogs. Take a look at some of the best trainers in this country and they still use their motivators like this with their top dogs! If you have a dog that loves performing for food or a toy, build this up as it is a real bonus Others may have suggestions for clubs who will encourage you to train this way in your area. I must say that unfortunately, my experience of ADT is that they are big on correction chains and using the person as a motivator (which isn't enough for many/most dogs) and not so keen on using food and toys as motivators CORRECTLY, as a reward after an action once you get into the higher classes. That is only my personal experience though and I know others have found huge success and very high praise for ADT. Once again, make up your own mind and stick to your guns which sounds like you are going to do, so good on you

Hi Deltron, I'd STRONGLY STRONGLY suggest you check out your local not for profit obedience clubs first, or at least as well as ADT. Moorabbin and Districts is a long established club with a good rep, though I don't train there and am not a member so even if I was looking for a club and thinking about joining I'd look hard first. My advice would be to visit a good half dozen different clubs in your general area. Even travel as far as Croydon and District DOC if you can. Or Frankston. I don't mean just different ADT centres. Every club trains differently. The ADT group of centres train one way, other clubs train other ways. Don't just listen to the people who work there at any of these clubs who advise you. Get out into the clubs and WATCH carefully how the dogs are trained. Then go on the Internet and decide how you want to train your dog and do some research into different training methods. Do you want to use a more compulsive method with correction chains or are you into more of the 'purely positive' and luring type of training? Look at your dog's temperament and then look also at what will suit the dog best because if its temperament. Every dog is different. Don't go to a club where the training method is all the same for every dog if you can avoid it. Ask lots of questions at each club but use your eyes to work out what is best. If trainers/instructors have their own dogs at the club hang about and watch how they interact and work their own dogs. Do they just 'talk the talk' or can they really 'walk the walk' too? You'd be surprised at what you will see. Finally, I must say here that some places will tell you that not for profit VCA affiliated obedience clubs are geared more towards competition. This is totally untrue. You can gain a really good level of happy family/domestic obedience with your dog at these places and have real fun with you and your kids OR you can go on and take up options for competition obedience, flyball, agility, whatever you choose to investigate. One thing I have learned... never be swayed by purely recommendations of others about clubs. Check out everything for yourself.

I heard the grounds are bad myself. I haven't been out there this last couple of weeks but that is rough if the trial ends up being cancelled! Perhaps they'll just move the date. Heard the carpark near the shepherd club there is a mess. Hope all is okay for the state Ob Trial and Fundraiser day too. We need the rain, I guess... So far this week trained in: Sleet, Thunder, Rain, a few centimetres of water so like training in a swamp LOL. Hope the agility trial goes ahead. Huge disappointment for all involved if it doesn't!!!