Janba

I don't use prong or e collars(though I can see that under the supervision of a knowledgable and experienced trainer they can help) and have no intention of doing so but I do correct my dogs. I have done a lot of training with aggresive dogs and quite honestly high drive dominant working line dogs (unless the person on the other end of the lead was a testosterone driven macho he man) were not the porbroblem that the over spoilt allowed to rule the roost SWF was as the handler was most of the problem. These courses are not necessarily aimed towards behavioural problems but about dog training and quite honestly what a good clicker trainer or similar can train a dog to do is amazing. Just out of interest surely isn't one of the characteristics of a good working line GSD, belgium or similar the rock steady temperament?

From an earlier post of yours Why do you think that is any different to a high drive working bred BC? I have a friend who has had GSDs for over 30 years and done Schutzund etc. She said to me one day that she couldn't cope with owning a BC because of their brains and inventiveness and that is a breed characteristic of the ultimate sheepdog (sorry kelpie people). Enough breed bashing.

The standards of people like Karen Prior, is to uphold a method, not train dogs. When the dog doesn't respond to their methods and the E collar should be whipped out, they claim their is something wrong with the dog, it must have a brain tumour or some other obscure illness or maybe it needs some drugs to clam it down. When all that fails, the dog is deemed untrainable with a psychotic problem and should be PTS. Take the Standards of a proper dog trainer like Mike Ellis, Ed Frawley, Ivan Balabanov, Cesar Milan even dear old Bill (Koehler), the standard is to do what ever is necessary to train the dog and allow the dog the opportunity to live it's life. So what is the best standard to aspire to as a trainer, being someone who can apply a particular method, or someone who can train a dog is what I ask myself???. I've stayed out of this so far but what you are saying is crap. Have you ever attended a clinic by someone like Terry Ryan who is the teaching this one? I have been 2 x 5 day clinics with her and what I learnt was far more than from watching years of some of the trainers you have mentioned and she did do at one of the clinics the best example of operant conditioning I have seen. She did what Janba, operant condition some Border Collies No people to salivate every time a long legged blond walked past.

The standards of people like Karen Prior, is to uphold a method, not train dogs. When the dog doesn't respond to their methods and the E collar should be whipped out, they claim their is something wrong with the dog, it must have a brain tumour or some other obscure illness or maybe it needs some drugs to clam it down. When all that fails, the dog is deemed untrainable with a psychotic problem and should be PTS. Take the Standards of a proper dog trainer like Mike Ellis, Ed Frawley, Ivan Balabanov, Cesar Milan even dear old Bill (Koehler), the standard is to do what ever is necessary to train the dog and allow the dog the opportunity to live it's life. So what is the best standard to aspire to as a trainer, being someone who can apply a particular method, or someone who can train a dog is what I ask myself???. I've stayed out of this so far but what you are saying is crap. Have you ever attended a clinic by someone like Terry Ryan who is the teaching this one? I have been 2 x 5 day clinics with her and what I learnt was far more than from watching years of some of the trainers you have mentioned and she did do at one of the clinics the best example of operant conditioning I have seen.

Is being touch sensative an advantage to a breed that needs to duck a cows kicks or works in among a herd of cattle? A lot of what I observe is speculation and I haven't been able to find a lot research on it, but speculation leads to questions and hopefully answers. This is digressing from noise phobia but maybe that is whre I really wanted to go. Of my 3 dogs at the moment (not a significent sample) the dally is asleep on my bedpout of sight as that is the most comfortable spot, the show bred BC is asleep on the loubge room floor, not really "in touch" but not out of sight, the wroking bred BC is asleep under my chair which is where he is always to be found if I am at home. None of them suffer from speration anxiety. The staying with me isn't taught but seems to be inherent. The show line BC is frightened of sheep and attack is the best defence so may appear bold but isn't when it comes to stock. He is also not that biddable. Cole is biddable and very bold on stock. I have seen him push a recalcitrent wether who was stamping and threatening him half way round an advanced A course backwards and I have also had him get right back to working after being bowled over by sheep who had no respect for dogs but if you yell at him other than on stcok he turns to a lump of jelly. I think you are right in that dogs are bred for a specific purpose can be bred for conflicting characteristics that do siut their intended role.I think I need to do more thinking and research on this. Are you kidding?? Sounds like a great topic! It was but not really what I wanted to do

I suppose what i am wondering in my over tired over worked brain, is does the selection for certain working traits - like the necessity to respond to commands over a long distance (i'e several hundred metres at least) increase noise sensitivit? This is not weak nerve in relation to what these dogs have been bred for, but maybe it is in what you are looking for a dog. In my previous post the bitch is the mother to the pup.

I have 2 pathologically anxious BCs A month or so ago we were working 2 BCs (Cole and another working BC bitch) on the mob at EP with a young pup you hadn't worked out at his initial buyers and was very submissive towards both people and dogs and definitley shy. Both the adults are not overly shy or bold probably tending more towards bold than shy. There was a really loud clap of thunder and I, as the closest person, ended up with both adult beside me. I then sent them back to work despitebthe thunder and they both went on first command. The pup who is frightened of life couldn't have cared less about the thunder. Does that breeding for the biddability - the want to work for you nd with you have an effect on phobias. I would have loved the oportunity 30 years ago to have studied some of these things at Uni instead of starting to work on parrallel evolution of flight (as in flapping wings).

I hope the topic makes a sense as I found it hard to word it properly. I have 2 border collies, a breed that is known to have noise phobia and both my boys do to a degree. There is a big thunderstorm going on overhead and I have 2 panting, worried looking, unhappy BCs who are sitting as close as they can but 10 minutes ago with the thunder going they both ate their dinner. Both the BC are also sensative to verbal correction and verbal commands at a good distance. The dally couldn't care less how much noise there is. I have had dogs that I would call terrified of thunder or fire works and they panic, run blindly etc which is not the same as what I am seeing. I don't know if the boys behaviour would escalate if they felt unsafe or if I pandered to them instead of acting as I normally do. There are studies going into whether noise phobia is inherited. http://www.k9behavioralgenetics.com/NoisePhobia. I'm just interested in other people thoughts on this.

I was unaware that Aussies could be tested for CL and TNS as the test were specifically developed specifically for BCs and I also wasn't aware they were found in Aussies.

Blue merles are one the easiest colours to breed for and not rare in BCs and the fact that people are willing to pay more for them shows how easily people can be duped into thinking something is rare and unique. No colour should be more expensive. Having a colour preference is not problem but the colour should not be the primary reason for buying a dog. I am still waiting for my classically marked black tri BC.

Not a grey but does show he's thre because he wants to be

It depends on who says it. I have one person who I really admire as a trainer and handler who over the years has given me some very harsh criticism which I have taken on board depite feeling demorolised sometimes because I know he is right. He also does suggest ways to fix the problem. It has paid off. Last weekend he told me that my dog was really working well and that every time he has seen him work him lately he just keeps getting better. I have other people say things and think thats rot so ignore it.

I have 2 male BCs who get along fine 99% of the time but do have the occasional spat. One is entire and the other desexed and it is the desexed male who usually starts it. It has never amounted to anything but could be a problem if allowed to escalate. A male and female is easier.

or under protest He only waded out becuse I made him and you can't get your belly hair or tail wet. ETA I love Louis's swimming technique

Off into the sunset then the gremlin returns - can't let them get wet as the sun sets

Depends on what sort of dog group you are after . I'm open minded... When the season starts again next year you can always join us herding training - need more rotties.

I don't think the public are going to admire my registered purebred dogs if I walk them down the street at the moment. A dally with bright pink feet from centrigen spray to stop her chewing them after walking though wandering jew, a border collie who despite the fact I brushed a large bag of hair out of him still looks like a moth eaten carpet and another BC people mistake for a shepherd cross But I'm proud of them

Depends on what sort of dog group you are after .

It is a jump but in intermediate there is heaps you can do to help the dog and watching a good handler do an intermadiate you do realise this. After the cast when you reach the handlers peg you can move up to 4 1/2 metres towards the Y shute to start the direction of the first drive or step up to 4 1/2 mters away from the sheep to help the dog get them off you leg. Once the sheep have cleared the Y shute you can move anywhere in the handlers zone between B and C and from fence to fence so you can walk parralel with the sheep and just in front or behind till they reach the exam pen. Once they leave the exam pen you can do a fetch till you reach the edge of the handlers zone then the dog only has to drive them about 4 metres to marker 4 for the cross drive. You can the walk parralel with the sheep till they reach marker 5 then do a normal fetch to the pen. Hope that makes sense. The one thing wirh the driving particularly in advanced is you need very good flank commands, a good walk up and stop all on verbal or whistle command. It is in advanced that it gets harder as you can't move from the handlers peg till the sheep reach marker 3 (in the corner above the exam pen) then you walk straight to the exam pen and stay there till the dog as done the cross drive and the sheep are at marker 5 then you walk straight to the pen. I am really pleased with Cole - he has just matured so much in the last 2 months. We had our last training day today and we just worked on casting him the open 3 sheep arena and letting him work out his distance on the flighty sheep as he bought them to me then worked them in the square. If anything he was too wide but that is better than 2 clsoe with these sheep - they jump fences.

I had a dog that it took me about 2 years to bond with. We had major personality clashes and he was very fear aggressive. Returning him to the breeder was never an option and I couldn't have rehomed him with his aggression issues. I did eventually bond with him and he turned out to be a top dog. He was absolutlely brilliant with kids and with frail people - so did nursing home visits etc. I still feel bad about putting him down at 13 because of senilty not health issues it. I don't know if I would go through that again - living for 2 years with a dog you didn't like but I don't regret keeping Boot. On a different note I have a dog here now that I really should rehome as I do nothing with him and he would be really happy with a family who took him to the beach etc or someone who gave him a lot of one on one time but he is such a nice dog that I can't part with him.

I've never had a border with front dew claws removed though I have had dallies with them gone. The Shih Tzus were a bit different.

I used to remove dew claws when I bred after a groomer clipped one of a dog when clipping her and thought that I didn't want a puppy buyer going throught that as it was very traumatic for the dog and me. These days with the sheep work I am doing I want dew claws left on as they do seem to use them in turning etc as well as gripping things with their paws. I do very occasionally have dogs snag a dew claw in carpet etc but have never had a serious injury from it and my dogs tend to just wait till they are rescued. Back dew claws I would remove.

I haven't been that up close and personal with adult foxes though I do know nothing smells like fox sh*t when you dog rolls in it. It must be bad when I remember how Stinky the billy goat used to pong.

Does that mean you can get a friend to do them then, if you can't do your own? We had a friend do our Aussie pups and had no problems at all. I have since bought one pup (from Victoria actually) who still has her front dew claws and I curse them every time I groom her for a show!!!! I can understand that. Years ago when I had Shih Tzus a groomer cut one of my bitches dew claws of when clipping her. It was a mess and extremely painful and traumatic for the dog.