Janba

I don't know. I got so much out of one day at Colins's yesterday that I am still processing it. ETA not just fron working the older dogs but from the 4 very different puos who were worked and the comments about their working styles etc.

They are as 3 sheep you need a BC, kelpie or a koolie. It does help but try to find one who also drives as well as the 3 sheep fetching. As Colin Webster keeps telling us it doesn't matter how the dog wants to work the matters it is how the sheep want to be worked by that dog. So find someone who can really read stock as well as train a dog and you will learn heaps.

I don't want the break away to reach the point where my dog has to collect them - I want him to stop it before the sheep go offline. Ditto. Not that either of mine do it succesfully, but that would be what I like. Cole doesn't either all the time but he is getting better and better as he matures. You need to plan a holiday and come to NSW and do some training here.

I don't want the break away to reach the point where my dog has to collect them - I want him to stop it before the sheep go offline.

I guess it is different backgrounds and different experiences but if I am seeing what you say correctly I can see how this could be an issue on non dogged sheep. I would think in averting yes and flanking out and away sheep that are not dog broke will say "see you later" and be gone. Whereas walking back but maintaining eye contact and holding the line the dog is on can make the sheep feel less threatened while still leaving the dog in a greater level of control. Also some of the non dog broke sheep I have seen being worked even flanking the dog out if they are near an obstacle could be enough to push them away from it as they react to the movement of the dog. Not a situation you would expect to see in ANKC trials though where the stock are dog wise. I think maybe if I saw what you meant it could be different as I picture a bigger, quicker movement when you talk about flanking away than I do with a few steps backwards that Janba mentions. You explain it better than I do. On the more runnier sheep flanking the dog back, particularly at an obstacle can give the sheep a chance to duck round the side of the obstacle as the point of pressure changes with the dogs movement and this looses points whether it is ANKC or 3 sheep trialling. By walking the dog backwards the pressure point or angle remains the same. My instruction mainly comes from 3 sheep people, some of whom also very successfully ANKC herd at advanced level, so maybe that is the difference. As I do want to 3 sheep Cole this year I will go by their teachings

Yes and as the flight zone is fluid so where the edge is is some circumstances is where it is in other spots. Stepping backwards can relieve pressure and settle sheep if they are suddenly feeling more threatened such as at the mouth of an obstacle. We are not talking about walking backwards for metres and metres but say 2-10 dogs steps.

Walk backwards while keeping his eye on the sheep. There are times when you want to ease the pressure a bit but not change the angle of force such as sometimes in the mouth of an obstacle or sometimes when driving. When he is fetching I do arc back to get distance. I actually expect him to never take his eyes off the sheep as if he does and they break he won't be quick enough to cover them properly and he responds to a break much quicker than I can command him to. This is on non dogged sheep. Interesting. Different methods I guess. I get how you would want to ease pressure sometimes but I see a lot of dogs that walk backwards and the pressure does not actually diminish. I do use a balance cue so I can ask for a flank and re-position the dog exactly where I need him, so the angle stays the same, but the pressure has decreased. When flanking I expect the dog to only be checking in where the stock are. Most of the time he should have his gaze averted. Direct eye contact only occurs when I want pressure applied. With light stock, he would spend more time with his gaze averted than he would looking at the stock. I have never worked completely un-dogged sheep however. Its the pressure bubble thing. If you imagine a bubble round the sheep at their ideal point of pressure. When the dog is outside the bubble they aren't reacting to the dog but he can still have his eye on them, at the edge of the bubble the sheep will react to the dog and ideally move of in the direction of the pressure and remain calm. Inside the bubble the sheep will react too strongly to the dog. I want my dog to work at the edge of the bubble though that doesn't always happen as he does like to come in too close particularly at obstacles. ETA I find that when my dog takes his eye of the sheep he is confused or uncertain of what I'm asking and then it is usually to give a quick glance at me as if to say "what the f**?"

Walk backwards while keeping his eye on the sheep. There are times when you want to ease the pressure a bit but not change the angle of force such as sometimes in the mouth of an obstacle or sometimes when driving. When he is fetching I do arc back to get distance. I actually expect him to never take his eyes off the sheep as if he does and they break he won't be quick enough to cover them properly and he responds to a break much quicker than I can command him to. This is on non dogged sheep.

Sounds like a great weekend. Trusting the dogs is a big and neccessary step and brings a lot of improvement. Cole has a reputuation (unfounded as he has never pulled wool) for biting and since I have started to trust him instead of panicking when he gets to close to sheep we have come forward in leaps and bounds. Today he pushed the sheep backwards through a race, and if he he was going to bite that would have been a perfect opportunity as the sheep were standining him up, instead he just kept the pressure up on the sheep and forced them back with his eye. One thing good that happened today is I finally think we have cracked the walking backwards off sheep rather than having to arc back.

How did the herding clinic go? A friend and I decided to head to Bathurst today to do some training seeing as Wattle Creek was cancelled. We had a great day working some young pups and working the older dogs on 3 sheep obstacles obstacles and lunch at the pub in the middle. It was a lovely relaxing and the dogs did some really lovely work

Then frankly, I am very surprised that so few bother advertising on your website given they went to the bother of joining in the first place. Part of that would be because you have assumed you know why they joined. Out of 10,000 how many advertise on the Dogs NSW website or their monthly journal? Is advertising on the MBDA website free if you're mamber or do you charge like DogsNSW does?

Does the MDBA have more than the 13 breeder members listed on their site and if so how does a member of the public find them?

They can take a while to turn onto ducks. Cole took a couple of sessions and still looks for sheep the first run every time we trial on ducks - we never have the opporunity to train on them between trials. He get very frustrated with them and shoves them with his mouth. His sister used to pick them up by the neck and put them where she wanted them when she first started on ducks.

Where abouts in NSW are you? There is herding training weekends at EP and on Sat morning at Hawkesbury if they have opened their books to new member again. We have been going out to Hawkesbury for the last 5mths or so. Have not tried EP yet though, have been meaning to. Is there a website I can go to for EP regarding the training wkend? Tried to find it thorough the dogs NSW website but no luck. Thanks for your help Training at EP starts again in March. The first Sat of the month is run by ths NSW herding association and you need to be a member. Membership is $25 per year and training is free. all other Sats are run by DogsNSW sporting committee and you need to be a member of DogsNSW and training costs $5. Training times are 9-3 wheather permitting. Sundays are run by the Australian Stockdog zClud and you need to be a member $28 per year plus I think $5 joining fee. Training costs $3 and hours are the same as Sat. There is a Yahoo group for training announcements, trial dates etc for EP http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/herdingEP/

Where abouts in NSW are you? There is herding training weekends at EP and on Sat morning at Hawkesbury if they have opened their books to new member again.

I've only camped once with my current dogs and that was with Cole who decided the best place to sleep was on top of me Everyone have fun at the herding camp. We're not doing anything till training starts Feb/March because the fun 3 sheep trial at Wattle Flat has been canceled

Are you thinking about the BC nationals next year?

Take your pup to visit the vets when you don't need to actually see the vet. Take treats and get the receptionist etc to treat the pup and make a fuss of him so that visits to the vet are postive not associated with examinations and pain. As the behaviouralist said also get you pup used to being touched all over especially ears, mouth, feet, testis etc.

We survived just. I went to bed just after 1 as all seemed quiet and had got the dogs peed and in bed when the fools down the road started leeting off their bombs and it started again and lasted till 2am. The problem is that they let one off every 5 or so minutes and they are r4eally loud but not as bad as the ones last year that rattled the windows and started the fireworks fear in my boys.

I hope she calms down soon. The fire works seem to have stopped here so hopefully I can get to bed.

I have t-shirts on mine as a recomendation from a friend and it does seem to help - maybe makes them feel more secure and lots of rescue remedy. My vet told me years ago that sedatives like ace are a bad idea as the dogs still panic but can't really do anything about it while drugs like valium are better as they work on the brain so the dog doesn't feel the need to panic as much.

Both my BC boys are worried by fire works but not to the run away in panic stage. their reactions are interesting. Cole who is very much a touchy feely dog and always near me normally is hiding in the bathroom - he's OK in there. Moss who doesn't normally cuddle much or stay too close is lying on my feet. The dally is asleep on my bed.

I once made a comment like this and got accused of breeder/shower bashing I venture up to the show rings from herding now at EP only to buy food. ETA I am a local just a very infrequent shower.

What specific reason for not having registered the sire? I am pretty sure dogs need to be registered by 18 months if born in Aus. From the DogsVic regulations

Purebred working BCs are still used as are working kelpies. There would be very very few ANKC BCs working on real properties. Ok last dumb question for the year, do working BC's look the same as ANKC BC's? They can but a lot don't. The working BCs tend to have longer legs and finer bone and the coat can be anything from smooth to long but is rarely as thick as an ANKC dogs coat. Ears can also be anything from pricked to dropped. I have seen working BCs with conformation good enough to win in the show ring but they are bred for working ability not conformation. My Cole, whose link is below, is a pure working bred dog but dual registered as NZKC recognises the ISDS as pure bred. ,