Are You Serious Jo

Firstly, you have no idea if the person quoted was accurate in her assessment of the dogs, she may have been exaggerating for effect because she didn't like the situation. Secondly, there are plenty of dogs that don't like walking into a new place with strange smells. I've got one dog that does that, shame on me for ever taking her out or to the vet?

So at which point does the animal suffer? Can you give precise moments during the whole procedure?

I'd hardly call you a bleeding heart from what you wrote, unless you are out in the street protesting about something you know nothing about. I don't think you are going to find any unis offering free service for their students to get experience as they cannot afford it. The guts was ripped out of the tertiary system years ago and they are forced to operate like businesses now. Secondly the paperwork it would generate and the liability issues makes it unworkable. I called the new uni vet clinic down here in SA for desexing prices, not only were they not discounted, they were more expensive than a lot of other places and insisted that you had pre-ana bloods done on all desexing. They aren't interested in cheap desexing programs and from what I've read there aren't any other unis willing to do it for free either. The thing is pracs need to be organised ahead of time and allowances made for errors by the student. If they eff up in the lab then no harm done, they eff up in the surgery then the uni faces a potential lawsuit. Students need to be able to practice, that is the bare bones of it, you cannot afford to practice on someone's pet.

Who would like a vet's first experience of using a scalpel on a live animal to be while operating on your pet. Being an objector is one thing and it seems to be more about legality, but the materials you use are not a substitute for a living breathing animal. There is no substitute, alternatives are just that, not substitutes. If people want vets then they have to accept that vets need to be adequately trained. It's not even a cruel practice for goodness sake, the animals aren't even killed for training!

LOL and theeeeere you go again. Really, that 'flowery prose to gently caress your ears and touch your heart' stuff really wasn't necessary. You can't help yourself can you? lol And I take my hat off to your experience and accreditation's... but that doesn't mean that you have to poo poo people's opinions and make them feel beneath you, because they aren't. When the opinions are based on incorrect facts then yes, I have every right to correct them. You said you didn't know about procedures but had made your mind up anyway. The reason a lot of people are against this is because it makes them feel bad. The procedure is no different to when you take your own animal to the vet to be desexed, they just go to sleep. So if we agree that desexing isn't cruel to the animal, then what is left is your own unease about it. So basically, what it seems to be is that you'd like to stop this practice based on your feelings rather than what is actually happening to the animals. When that affects the rest of us we have a right to speak up. Animal rights is about human emotions, animal welfare is about what is best for the animal. Animals rights got the dogs stopped from being used for practice.

I have to reiterate as well what the others have said about animal experimentation, the ethics committees are extremely strict and you have to justify how many animals you use and absolutely everything you do. The days of vivisection and free for alls in labs are gone. These dogs would be as well treated as any pet going into the clinic and shown a lot of respect as they go to sleep. I think a lot of the fear about this issue is from ignorance.

I have had my fill of bleeding hearts, and it because of my time with them that I have learned a lot, that they are idealists who actually can cause more harm than good. I can't learn anything more from them, but thanks for your suggestion This issue is a perfect example of how emotion has lead to harm, dogs that were going to die anyway were at least being able to have some good come from their death. But thanks to the do gooders those dogs now go into landfill and vet students are robbed of an opportunity to learn valuable skills. I have seen all sides of this debate, I've been a committee member of Animal Lib, researcher who submits ethics applications and a vet nurse who had the opportunity to learn on a donor dog. Sorry, no flowery prose to gently caress your ears and touch your heart, just my honest opinion.

Report me then Anne, go for your life. But realise that you are showing your hypocrisy yet again by your continual personal attacks. So you say I'm a bad person for saying what I say, what does that make you then? I stand by what I said, I mean it all, I don't like bleeding hearts who act on emotion rather than logic. Never will. They don't make rational decisions and I'm entitled to be annoyed when that impacts me or something that is important.

Never give it internally!

I gave an example of how a certain type of person has caused harm that was very relevant to the topic. I don't like extremes of either end, people who act purely on emotion and people who have no emotions, so what is your point? Since when has wanting balance and education a crime? You've already had actual vet students tell how some bleeding hearts have impacted their education which impacts me and you as pet owners, I'm not pulling stuff out of my botbot Here, have some of these, they seem to make everything better :rofl:

sometimes they do, blood tests etc don't always show/tell the whole story. Sometimes animals are operated on for a look see. I imagine it's not done as often now as it has been in the past as technology has improved in leaps and bounds. I BEG your pardon? My God. Have I EVER claimed to have ANY idea on vet practices? NO. I will happily say I know absolutely NOTHING about vet practices and what happens etc. I only know what people tell me. And I am extremely lucky to not have any serious illness or injury happen to my pets (although there HAS been injury and illness - just not serious) and I always go into the vet and ask a million questions because I don't know anything about it. I am a journalist. Not a vet. And second of all - I would really like you to show me which comments I have made that are insensitive? That was NEVER my intention. And I don't think ANY of my comments have been insensitive? So I have absolutely no idea what you're going on about? These are your posts saying that you are ignorant of the facts behind vet practices. As a journalist I'd expect that you understand what the definition of ignorant is and not take it as an insult. It has a specific meaning. My objection to people influencing decisions when they are ignorant of the facts stand, it does real damage.

Ignorant bleeding hearts are the cause of a lot of trouble, that is why people here pull others up when they act without any facts and on emotion. Real world things get screwed up by people living in lalaland.

Because right now they don't have infinite time, space or funds. Could you fit a never ending supply of dogs in your house?

So you'd stop it if you could, but have no solutions to the problem it would cause? Even if stopping it meant dogs would suffer? Do you think it is cruel to euth?

Why?

Ahhh, the good old farm, it mist be bulging at the sides by now ;) Leelaa, until you have some practical solutions you shouldn't condemn others. Nobody likes the fact dogs are being PTS for being unwanted, you don't have the monopoly on that emotion, but you don't have an alternative.

$200 each isn't too bad, but I'd laugh in the face of anyone wanting $1600, what a joke.

How much did the car movers charge per car? Mine was done at night and they arrived in an hour, hopefully you haven't been ripped off.

When I broke down in Adelaide it cost me $150 to have the car towed a fair way (from near Mansfield Park to outside of Blackwood), I just got the number from the yellow pages, might be a cheaper way to move them.

Ahhh, ok, assumed you meant vic's dogs.

I don't want to be Miss Buzzkill, but maybe the photos are not a good idea. If I found myself in this position I wouldn't want photos of my dogs posted on the web. If Vic has given permission ignore this, but it's easy to forget things like this in the heat of the moment and she may not want photos taken.

Troll playing the long game?

In cooler weather I leave mine in the car with the windows up, and even more outrageously, I sit in there as well, with the windows up I think you might have missed something in the message about leaving dogs in cars, it's about the temperature, not the fact the windows are up

Dogs don't have episodic memory, they don't have the cognitive prerequisites to enable them to do so.

I know the vet school in Adelaide has made it compulsory, you have to have the pre ana bloods done on every animal being desexed. I inquired when looking for vets doing cheaper rescue desexing, made the price unbelievable for doing rescue work.