Are You Serious Jo

In what context are you using cull? If you mean PTS then you are dead wrong, no one said that. Culling in a breeding sense means remove from the gene pool, usually by desexing. I notice you haven't found any material that contradicts the information about skin cancer, there is no out jury on that. It is well known that cancer is a higher probability in mammals that have less melanin in their skin. No one is trying to crucify you, just to understand why you don't think this gene is a problem when there are two major issue associated with it, higher susceptibility to cancer and thyroid issues. Two dogs who are not very old (I can surmise this because I was already on DOL when you joined) aren't conclusive evidence. I just cannot understand why you can't see this as a potentially serious health issue for the breed, PARTICULARLY if it's a recessive. You don't even have to completely abandon your line, just cull (desex) those who are affected and keep to dogs with full pigment for breeding.

I think he's a grub. His webpage is one conspiracy short of tin foil hat territory. This is a minor nitpick, but his wife posted a picture of him in the house and he was smoking right near his cat. I'm sure pets suffer the effects of passive smoking too. Once he has effed up rescue here he'll be on to his next cause. I would love to know what the elected pollies think about him. Plus he has a ridiculous boy band bad boy beard :laugh:

See I don't get that, how can our existing laws not cover no food, no water and other neglect there. Why do they keep saying they are powerless when they already have convictions against other people for the same thing. If they can take a puppy because of a previously docked tail why can't they act on these horrendous puppy farms? I don't buy the we can't do anything because others get prosecuted for the same cruelty. Could they be using the we are powerless to get rid of as many breeders as possible by fudging the facts. How can legislation that says it is cruel to show a debarked dog not have some provision for basics such as no food and water and general health neglect.

I don't think he cares as much about the issues as he does wanting to be seen to be the people's champion. They see nothing wrong with piles of crap everywhere that snakes could happily reside in. Lots of browns up there so what you really need is places for them to hide on the property. Once this dies down and the extra vollie leave she'll be back to having more dogs than she can handle. What a joke, best performing shelter in the country, how many people did it take to get to the point where it's not a hideous hell hole, between 300 and 500 depending on who you believe. Another thing while I remember. I was also smugly told that Mark is going to sort out the rspca, but the minister is ignoring him. I would love to have an investigation into the rspca but their screaming very loudly tactics have failed, despite them telling me that was going to work. Told them so!

LOL, organs are offal. Yes, if someone wanted to get you they would have legislation to back them when you were seen feeding out liver treats.

Hydatid cysts are visible as they are reasonably large from what I remember so there is no way they could escape attention in liver treats. But why ban offal from breeding dogs and not pets if they consider it such a huge problem? Hydatids in dogs is still fairly rare so why is this even an issue? Do they think puppy farmers go out and hunt their dog food?

Hopefully the businesses who make liver treats will jump in. But that is just one small problem in a document full of bullshit.

It just seems designed to hurt breeders. If they know about hydatids why don't they know that offal from licensed premises is safe? I think they know but don't give a toss. Easier to just get breeders if they say no offal then find some regardless of whether it's safe. I can't believe a vendetta is allowed to go so far.

Of course the rspca couldn't rescue the pig, the p no longer stands for prevention. Too bad the pig might have gotten hit by a car, not their problem.

Common sense would dictate they add no offal other than from a licensed premises, but why do that when you want to get rid of grubby breeders anyway even if they are registered and don't breed much. Dog fan is right, if they thought it was such a problem they would insist no offal for any dog. Is there any suggestion anywhere that puppy farmers even have a problem with hydatids, wouldn't they just be feeding crap dry food? Where is the evidence?

From what I can gather in previous discussions even if you aren't planning on breeding you still need to follow the rules for breeding if they are entire.

So what happens if your dog lifts their chicken frame out of the bowl, you get a fine. Oh wait, that won't happen because very few vets will approve of raw They have to be kidding about offal, you can easily buy it hydatid free from the flipping supermarket in the section for humans! So do they really think offal cleared for human consumption is still at risk of having cysts, why aren't they screaming to protect people from this deadly menace! What will happen is that they'll find this won't have any impact on the number of brindle staffy types in the pound so they will drop the number of fertile bitches a Vic dogs breeder can have to less than 10. Breeders can easily keep 10 anyway and still not create a puppy farm situation so 10 hardly makes you a farmer. AR are now running the bloody welfare groups.

No breed or problem is above scrutiny. If everyone sweeps issues under the carpet then the AR nuts will have everything they need to continue the decimation of purebred dogs. If breeders spoke out about health issues a long time ago there wouldn't be the problems there are now. Ignoring a breed health problem won't make it go away.

The thread is about tralee lamenting the quality of Maremma in Australia and what he considers lack of success in the ring. He has had some not so subtle digs about other Maremma breeders as well. If he is going to post misinformation then why be surprised it is corrected. If people want to post on the internet and only get positive replies they should start a blog.

Good, I couldn't remember what enzyme it is and searching didn't throw it up. Is there a test or is diagnosis based on symptomology?

As I said, fleeing SA :laugh:

Since the depigmnentation seems to be analogous or maybe even homologous to snow nose/collie nose the abstract below points out the risk. I think the point has been made and if tralee has any doubts he can go check and see if he can find anything that says that solar damage doesn't occur on lighter noses. There are also cases where the depigmentation is a result of autoimmune disease. "Basal cell epitheliomas and squamous cell carcinomas are common in dogs and cats. Their biologic behavior appears to be comparable to that of their human counterparts. Nasal solar dermatitis (collie nose) and feline solar dermatitis are conditions in which hereditary-anatomic factors may predispose to intensive actinic damage and the eventual development of squamous cell carcinoma. The pathogenesis of both entities is reminiscent of that of xeroderma pigmentosa of man. Nasal solar dermatitis and feline solar dermatitis could serve as excellent models for the study of spontaneous carcinogenesis."] Basal Cell Epithelioma and Squamous Cell Carcinoma in Animals, George H. Muller, DVM, Arch Dermatol. 1967;96(4):386-389.

At least others reading know we are not talking out our bottoms and it is an important health issue to consider. Even if sun wasn't an issue the fact is dogs with depigmentation have an underlying enzyme disorder and that alone should be enough to take it seriously!

Not dogs but an example in other animals, more when I get them. "Solar radiation is an etiological factor in squamous cell carcinoma in the ears and nose of white cats, on the perineum and ears of Angora goats in Africa, and on the eyelids of cattle (" cancer eye ")." E. WEISS I & K. FRESE, Bull. Org. mond. Sante ) 1974, 50, Tumours of the skin* Budl. Wid Fifth Org. 79-100, VII. I'm going through getting the search terms right for the veterinary literature.

What have you proved? We are talking about cancer due to lowered pigment. I never said all dogs will get it and be dead by three. It's about the increased risk to dogs with lighter noses. You do realise that melanin is directly associated with the risk of cancer in many species don't you?

I'm attempting the above with you. You said there is no proof that lack of pigment is correlated with higher risk of cancer right? I'm helping you by giving you some information that will assist you in making breeding decisions.

What happens if I do find data on it? Have you even done a vet lit search? If Lumen lives to 15-17 I'll be shocked a large dog could get to that age :laugh: That proves nothing anyway because it just proves that one dog didn't get melanoma for whatever reason. One thing you need to do with research is not rely on anecdotes, an example of one dog is no indication of what happens to the population as a whole. That is why people do research, to eliminate false assumptions based on anecdotes. I thought you did some science at uni, how come you don't know that?

LOL, tralee is attempting to train me :laugh: I am baffled that anyone breeds knowing the gene for enzyme deficiency is present, that goes for the breeders who you got your dogs from and anyone else. As has been said, no one is having a go at you for having those dogs but it's what you choose to do knowing they have a health problem that matters. So what if thyroid problems are in some, that is not the topic we are discussing, we are talking about light noses. State doesn't really matter, plenty of UV rays down south as well. Backing up an argument with impartial facts is not a witch hunt, it's what scientists do. If I shows data relating to higher incidences of melanoma in light nose dogs will you then conceded that it is a problem? You've said there is no proof, what if I find some?

Which is the reason so many have been banging on about health issues

Tralee is anti-science, he has said so many times, it's all about Dog :laugh: I'll still look for papers though, maybe one day he might listen.