AmandaJ

We had a seminar on it at SACA a few months ago. You should be able to get a copy of the DVD if you call Noahs Crossing Vet Clinic. Much cheaper alternative to a hip replacement and a successful trial has been done.

I'd keep waiting. My 3 1/2 yo bitch is a 12 monther.

Beardie gooming is dependant on coat type - the more correct it is the easier to handle (a soft coat can be difficult to handle and requires much more attention compared to a correct coarse coat) As a general rule - allow a good hour each week for a brush and on bath days put aside 3 hours. In general beardie temp. is excellant with other other animals although because they are an independant herding dog you may find one with a high herding drive could herd your friends, family and other animals. As for excercise - some are quite happy being couch potatoes and some (usually those with the higher herding drive) require much more exercise as they can get bored quickly. The breeder of my first beardie always says that the boys are easier to handle and much more loving - and Elaine is correct. Not all are barkers BUT some will bark at planes, choppers, sirens etc (not much different to other herding animals really - owing to the excellant hearing). Beardies are easily trained BUT again because they are independant thinkers they do not respond well to harsh treatment - so POSITIVE re-inforcement is a must. Hope that helps Edited to say - grooming properly from the start makes the grooming easier later. As for shedding - I hope your friend has hard floors not carpet - otherwise she may find an extra carpet on the carpet.

Exercising the kiddies?????????? Not very reliable - - high possibility of loss of said kiddies If you can guarantee the loss of the kids, I'll take 2. I'll take a third if you have a model that puts weight on!

And that is one of the reasons you need to talk to the breeders - get correct information. Any animal can get bored and become destructive. The breeders know the temperament of their lines and will tell you what is needed for them. If you go on the weekend - whiskedaway will be there - but in the same group you have beardies, borders, corgis, OES, etc.... I can easily give you some names of trustworthy people around that group and in a few others who can guide you around. Could you or whiskedaway give me a brief overview? Like where to go? My Dad would know about the show but would people be OK with 'just another family wanting a puppy' coming up and asking questions? Dad would probably stay at the corgi section all day given the chance xD I'll PM you with a name for dad to talk to if he's a corgi lover. Group 5 is easy to find - right down the back and furthest from the buildings - they must think that because we have working dogs we need the exercise!

And that is one of the reasons you need to talk to the breeders - get correct information. Any animal can get bored and become destructive. The breeders know the temperament of their lines and will tell you what is needed for them. If you go on the weekend - whiskedaway will be there - but in the same group you have beardies, borders, corgis, OES, etc.... I can easily give you some names of trustworthy people around that group and in a few others who can guide you around.

The Qld tibbie was from Myikyi. My other equally great tibbies have come from Lynandra in NSW (no longer operating) and Pzazz from Sweden (imported & raised & beautifully socialised at Telavier in NSW). The experienced sheltie breeders in the Sheltie Club of Qld, also get the hugest bouquet from me, for what they produce. I'm sure there'd be registered breeders of this calibre for other breeds as well. It beats me why anyone would go anywhere near a pet store or a puppy farm. I thought your post captured perfectly what this 'calibre' is. Thanks mita. The reason I asked about the breeder is 2 of my kids are Qld'rs both from Stylyn - "healthy as horses"

Well said, Amanda. That's spot-on information for anyone considering getting a puppy. And I speak as a pet owner who has got purebreds from registered breeders who've done all you've said. Lovely, lovely dogs in looks, temperament and general health. Our sheltie from a Q'ld breeder never ever had any problem requiring vet treatment from the time she was desexed as a youngster to the last year of her long life. Same with a tibbie who also came from a Q'ld breeder. I'd only add to the OP.....also consider a Smooth Collie. Would the tibbie happen to be from Stylyn?

I think they would require a little more than a half hour walk a day... I use to help walk racing grey hounds and they hated cats... probably not the best idea. What about a Bull Mastiff? from my experience they are pretty laid back dogs (correct me if I am wrong someone ;) ) Not necessarily. My family has had two bearded collies and neither of them were ever walked regularly. There are other ways of tiring them out. Neither of them have seemed to need much tiring out anyway! My friend owns border collies and they are walked only a couple of times a week if that, and they have a small backyard. Mental stimulation can be just as tiring as physical exercise. Agreed - and my boys are couch potatoes (or more accurately bed potatoes!) My young girl is far more active but she has a high herding drive.

Thank you, could you please give some more information about SACA park this weekend? Day/time/what the event is? My father is home at the moment and he knows about shows so he would be able to 'guide' us a bit better, but that was mostly in vic. Adelaide Districts Working Dog Club Inc All Breeds Champ Show 17th Sept 2011 Adelaide Districts Working Dog Club Inc All Breeds Champ Show 18th Sept 2011 SACA Park - Cromwell Road, Kilburn I'm not entered so I can't tell you the start time - but if you are there at 9am you will get a good look at all the breeds.

Since your in SA - try SACA park this weekend or the Dogs SA open day on December 14. Beardies can be boisterous - but so can any other breed. They are an active dog owing to them being a working dog. The boys are more gentle than the girls.

The BBC documentary didn't tell the whole truth. Some of the problems with cross breeds: Structural integrity can be compromised with the use of phenotypically dissimilar animals, temperament is unpredictable, adult size of the animal is unpredictable, genetic problems of both breeds could exist in the cross breed. Properly bred pure breed dogs, where the breeder has properly researched the blood lines, matched the dog and bitch, tested the breeding animals for known genetic conditions, raised in an appropriate environment, contract and guarantee provided, will give you far more certainty in the health of the animal you buy than those bred purely for profit. Purely for profit bred animals means the animals are provided with a lower quality existance so the profit can be made. It means the testing is not done so the profit can be maximised. By purchasing a cross breed bred for profit you are supporting the income of someone made "off the backs" of the animals. Had you considered a Border Collie or Bearded Collie?

If you put the punative damages clause at less than $10k (in SA) then you could fight it in Magistrates small claims court - no lawyers are permitted to be present. So long as you have the properly written contract and argued it correctly there is no reason it will not be upheld. Of course if the dog has already gone then it's to late for that dog but it does put people on notice that they can't get away with it in future.

Anne my law studies were a part of my accounting studies. From what I understand (and have seen of many of the contracts used by breeders) they don't include the full requirements to ensure a "promise" in a contract stands up. They need to have consideration for the promise or be signed under seal or deed. Until a few years ago the laws realting to promises in contracts was only ever used in what they call a shield defence but Australian law recognised it as a Sword defence placing Australian Law ahead of British law in that regard. If you take a look at some of the contracts used in the USA now they include the requirement for consideration for promises and also include penalty clauses (financial) and the AKC will also strike off any dog whos owner breaches the contracts - they could not do that if it didn't hold up in court. There are many examples where the "promise" has held up in court with regard to contracts in business - which are still written with the same contract law requirements. When it comes to "free enjoyment of property" - if a person is going to surrender an animal - they clearly don't want it any longer - so where is their right in that regard being hurt. A breeder who is not interested in having the animal returned rather than going to a shelter would simply not include the clause. You could always write the promise as "the breeder will be provided with the opportunity to take back the animal under the following conditions: .... " Just another one - in Australia we actually don't have any rights like they do in the USA - we have no "bill of rights".

A bit of light reading from an Australian University Lecture Document Promises And Their Enforcement Because contract's principal function is to facilitate trade, the focus of attention is very much on what is legally necessary to make it work. Let us focus for a minute on what we mean by trading activity. Suppose I say to you that I want to buy your goat. You agree and so I give you the money and you give me the goat. This an immediate exchange. Incidentally supposing, instead of me giving you money, I give you a pig - what is that called? Is that type of transaction a contract? Immediate exchanges are contracts but they do not appear to involve any promises. But, as we have already seen, an immediate exchange may involve hidden promises, for example, there may be an implied promise that the goat should be free of disease. As soon as trading becomes more complicated, as it did in the industrial revolution, there is a need for a more sophisticated model of contract. Exchanges start to involve a complex of promises about the future. Contract lawyers call promises about the future - that something will be done in the future - executory promises. Sophisticated trading is about long-term relationships or at the very least performance projected into the future. It is about the exchange of executory promises. For example, imagine running a supermarket. Every single item on those shelves is procured by contract. One of the essential features of a good supermarket - one that will attract the customers - is that the shelves should be fully stocked with a wide variety of goods. Imagine what it would be like trying to run a supermarket without the certainty which contract gives, namely, the assurance that the various items will arrive on time and according to a carefully worked out schedule. Legal Enforceability This, in turn, requires us to focus on the question: what is required to make a promise binding? In practical terms how can I be sure that your promise is going to stick, legally? I might also be interested in the question: how am I going to be sure that the other party will think that I am genuine. It is just as important that my promises should be taken seriously as it is for me to be assured that your promise is legally enforceable. If I cannot make a contractually binding promise then no-one will do business with me. An example is minors - people under 18. Their ability to trade is severely curtailed by the law. No trader would enter into a business relationship with a minor because his or her promises may be unenforceable. All this goes to show that it is important for trading that people should be able to make legally enforceable promises as well as being assured that the other party's promise is legally enforceable. So, what should be the criterion of legal enforceability? There are a number of possible ways in which a legal system could answer this question. Solemnity For example, it may be that the law would say that solemnity is the key. If there is a well-known way of making legally enforceable promises, for example, that they should be intoned in a solemn voice with the person who is making the promise facing south and standing on one leg - then there would be a way, recognised by law, of making enforceable obligations. Our system of law does in fact have something like that, namely, a way of making promises binding by following a certain ritual. It is called a deed under seal. A deed is a document which has to be in a certain form and which must be signed, sealed and "delivered". Sealed nowadays means buying a little red seal from a law stationers - it used to involve melting sealing wax and imprinting the warm wax with a seal, often part of a ring. It is not even necessary to use a seal. It is sufficient to draw a circle and put the letters "l. s." in the circle. These stand for "locus sigilii" - the place of the seal. Delivered now means very little. It is not necessary to physically deliver the deed to make it binding. Delivery is more about the intention which accompanies the execution of the document. It must be intended that deed is for the promisee's use and benefit. This invariably goes without saying. (For the formalities required for making a deed, see Seddon N and Ellinghaus M, Cheshire & Fifoot's Law of Contract (7th Aus ed) para [4.1] footnote 5). There was a stage in the historical development of the law of contract where it was argued, particularly by Lord Mansfield, that enforceability should turn on whether or not the promise was in writing. Writing is not the same as a deed which requires more than just writing. Lord Mansfield's idea was rejected in the end in a case called Rann v Hughes with the result that, since then, contracts are perfectly enforceable without any writing, although we shall see there are limited exceptions to that. But basically the position is that writing is not essential for most contracts, however large and important they are. As far as the law of contract is concerned it is possible to order a F111 aeroplane over the telephone. Of course, as a matter of business practice it is not sensible to do this. Reliance What other criteria might a legal system develop for making promises legally binding? Possibly another basis would be reliance. If you have made a promise to me upon which I have relied, then there is an argument of fairness that you should not be able to go back on it. For example supposing I promise a large sum of money to a charity which then relies on my promise and makes contracts with builders, architects and so forth to build a new building. Is my promise binding? Should it be binding? We will see that traditionally the law of contract did not adopt this criterion but that this traditional position has changed quite radically in recent times. We will be studying the doctrine of estoppel which has been transformed by the High Court. Estoppel is very much about reliance - its key ingredient is detrimental reliance. We will have a lot to talk about on this theme of reliance. Exchange A fourth possible basis for making promises legally binding is exchange, that is, that a promise is only binding if it has been giving in exchange for something. This is in fact the traditional basis for legal enforceability of promises in our legal system. A bare promise - a one-way promise where, for example, I simply promise to give you my goat - is not legally enforceable. (But remember, if it is put in a deed then it can be legally enforced.) Contrast the bare promise - usually called a gift promise by lawyers - with an exchange promise: I will give you my goat in exchange for you giving me a pig. We are talking about promises here. So the deal is I promise to deliver my goat to you, say, next Wednesday if you promise to deliver the pig on the same day. There is an exchange of promises. This is what the doctrine of consideration is all about. We will spend some time examining the doctrine of consideration which has some somewhat mysterious aspects to it.

Why can't a Covenant be put into place? They place Covenants on Title and these regulate what people can and can't do with their property beyond the initial date of their ownership. O.K. Lets look at this . You were recently sick and had to consider what was best in your opinion for Mandela if you could no longer look after him. You made choices based on what you know of the people involved and your dog. What if it was possible for the breeder to hold you to an agreement where Mandela had to go back to them? How would you feel about that? Do you think that would be in your dog's best interests? Shouldnt you have the right to choose that if mandela is your property without fear of being sued ? Things change, circumstances change and you cant make a promise now and be sure that in 5 years time all the things which were in place when you made a promise are still the same - they arent . Dogs arent like land or businesses they are moveable property and different laws apply. That's not quite correct - they are still covered by Australian Consumer Law - the same as all goods and chattels

Why can't a Covenant be put into place? They place Covenants on Title and these regulate what people can and can't do with their property beyond the initial date of their ownership. My understanding is that where a promise is part of the contract there has to be an expectation of some type of "consideration" in return. That consideration could be what is known as a "peppercorn" consideration (a token consideration). Without some type of consideration in return then to be valid it needs to be executed under seal or deed. So where the promise is to return the dog to the breeder the breeder needs to promise something in return - that could be a promise to return to the original owner any difference between the financial consideration received by the breeder from the new owner less the cost of housing and caring for the animal until that time - or even a token $10.00 This then allows the breeder to include penalty clauses if the promise is not kept. That's how I understand it.

I keep hearing that the contracts are not worth the paper they are written on but my old Law Lecturer always taught that every contract - verbal, written, implied or otherwise (regardless of what it is for, so long as the terms of the contract are not illegal) is still a contract under contract law and can be taken to court if not honoured. I know - you still have to take it to court - but isn't it time to test it? As animals are considered goods and chattel then the contract is no different to a contract for a car or a house.

I know this is a little OT - but - I consider my 3 to be rescue dogs....they rescue me every day from a clean, hair free house, a tidy well maintained garden, sleeping alone and from having money in my purse. I wouldn't have it any other way. The only good pet shop is one without pets!

Umm.. Aren't Borzois on the MDR1 list? That may explain the anaesthetic issue....

Dju - yes to chocolate and there used to be cream too (not sure if it was a permitted colour - this is 30+ years ago) antlewry you could also ask Jim and Lyndall Black of Briarmist - I'm sure theirs are standards but they might be aware of a mini breeder with a litter on the way. Just because there is no current listing does not mean they are not planned. Good luck

Akita: Kyojin American Staffordshire Terrier: Tua, Max, Juno Australian Shepherd: Banjo, Archie Australian terrier: Bailey, Brandy, Jasper Australian Kelpie: Revan, Abby, Bluey, Cahill, Franky, Izzy, Spfyre, Milky Bearded Collie: Charlie, Bonnie, Bailie Belgian Shepherd (Groenendael): Fleming, Ivy Border Collie: Roy, Molly Boxer: Bruno, Nelsson Bull Terrier: Bonnerville Cane Corso: Ali Cavalier King Charles Spaniel: Bree, Ingrid, Jersey, Lacey, Fern, Floyd, Indy, Arnie Chihuahua: Chelsea and Pansy, Heidi, Bertie, Moose, Archi,Pepe, Dally: Appollo Dogue De Bordeaux: Moose & Chevy English Setter: Spartan, James Finnish Lapphund: Halo, Vienna, Jaana,Magnus,Aurora-Rose,Niina,Paddington,Maximus, Ahsoka, Fable, Demi French Bulldog: Lola, FeeBee German Coolie: FlashBazil, Latte German Shepherd: Java, Odin, Tlaloc, Rebus German Shorthaired Pointer: Pip, Coco, Polo Golden Retriever: Onslow, Matilda-Rose, Chester, Genie, Ella, Rosie Great Dane: Sparkles, Whitney Greyhound: Harry, Kiff, Sally Griffon Bruxellois: Mocha Hungarian Vizsla: Flynn, Rogan Japanese Spitz: Emmy Keeshond: Jedi Labrador Retriever: Lestat, Bailey, Tia, Mieka, James Miniature Long Haired Dachshund: Mini, Rover Newfoundland dogs: Annabelle, Katy, Lukey Norwegian Elkhound: Odin Papillon: Blaze, Minka, Portia, Tyson, Coco, Tonka Pointer : Kite Audrey Poppin konrad, Badger Poodle (Toy): Chilli Pug: Lotus Rhodesian Ridgeback: Meisha, Bakari, Boss Rottweiler: Roxy, Feonix, Radar, Neo, Abby Samoyed: Mistral, Alchemy, Yngvie, Dante, Bundy, Kamikaze, Fergus, Kato Siberian Husky: Akira, Tikaani,Romeo,Baby.Riddick,Indie, Esky Staffordshire Bull Terrier: Kiara, Zola, Diesel SWF: Zoe Rescue Bitsa: Keely, Fred & Ginger, Ozzie, Tess, Maverick, Bosco, Kyah, Charlie, Astrid, Mala, Bella White German Shepherd: Casper White Swiss Shepherd: Rakim, Whippet: Herbie, Buzz Weimaraner: Ariane, Lulu, Louie West Highland White Terrier: Penny, Mac, Daisy

I did show in gum boots at Lancefield last year.

That is the very problem faced by Bearded Collies.....haplotyping may be one answer for us...another would be to open the register - question is how and to what?

Ok so you think it's the same to mate litter mates and dogs that have 1 common ancestor back in the 4th generation? I personally don't think so which is why we use terminology such as linebreeding and inbreeding. As a student of genetics I know all mating of animals with common ancestors is inbreeding, which is why the calculation to determine the degree of common ancestry is a coefficient of inbreeding. Agreed.... Inbreeding essentially increases the COI with very limited input of differential genetic material whereas linebreeding, although also increasing the COI, ensures a degree of new genetic material is introducted to the gene pool of that line. Inbreeding has a much higer potential to increase the negative aspects of any genetic problems where as linebreeding, properly done, will minimize that potential with the introduction of the new genetic material. That new genetic material must be complementary to the rest. Please remember I said "properly done" - there is a lot to assessing pedigrees and lines to find an appropriate mate - a lot of research and understanding goes into a proper mating.