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It was too big eh? we all know that pure bred staffies can get taller than their breed standard, so another mute point. Same as many people commented on the size differences between AST's at AKNC shows. Oh but it wasn't a pure bred... puhlease whether it is or not as i said doesn't matter! the damage to breed reputation has been doen and it wasn't a pitbull owner!!!! FACT I have not made one thing up at all. FACT I do not flaunt any BSL laws. Again another pointless comment from yourself. The courts decided (not me) that the evidence given was not considered expert enough to prove id, mainly because of the physical similarities between an AST and APBT. Another sorry attempt, another mute point. Please put some substance in your posts. I have owned a purebred SBT. Another incorrect assumption. EDIT; Maybe you're the first breed ID expert to use the evening news for your material, tell me were pictures front, side, back and come with measurements?

Did you even read any of my posts? Look I don't care if the SBT attacks were AKNC rego'd the point was that you where happy to attribute the SBT attacks to apbt. It is you that is in denial if you believe not one of the 145 SBT's in the reported attacks was not pure bred! This has been the whole crux of my issue with your posts. I'm less interested in your "knowledge" of a breed which you chose to slander just because you don't like them or their owners. In September last year an old lady was attacked by a SBT. The newspaper article (daily telegraph 30th sept) stated SBT but it was thought that the dog was really a pitbull, then a few lines later mentions the police confirmed the dog was SBT. So without an ounce of proof the newspaper had to throw in the word pitbull for effect when in fact it had nothing to do with a pitbull whatsoever. Now whether you believe that dog was pure bred or AKNC rego'd doesn't matter because the SBT name has already been tarnished by an irresponsible owner who has let the breed down, it was not let down by a pitbull owner. FACT There is your misrepresentation wiseguy. Me thinks your dancing elephant should become a white elephant in honor of your argument.

When one of the tactics of the anti-BSL lobby was to offer governments statistics claiming that other dog breeds were more dangerous, is it any wonder they stood on their own? I disagreed with those tactics and many others employed. None of them worked but they kept flogging deceased equines all over the country. I have a very open mind and live in the one place in Australia where its still legal to own an APBT without restriction. I"ll fight to keep it that way but not using the tactics of old. Absolutely! Take the B.S. out of the anti BSL fight. Get people onside instead of offside. It is the only way to be successful. Wiseguy, it's funny you agree with this (which i do too), yet in another of your posts you said that if an SBT or cross attacks a person then it is a pitbull!! your reasoning being it could never be a pure bred SBT that would attack a human. Therefore you're doing exactly what it is here that you're deploring hypocrite. Show me where? Never, ever have I said such a thing. I have not even thought such rubbish. You should get your facts straight before you accuse anyone of being a hypocrite. More uninformed drivel. Will it ever end? Wiseguy, 24th Feb 2011 BSL forum, page 9 of Hon. D. Boyle Kill amstaffs thread.. I quote. "If the incident involves another dog, I'm sorry the owner didn't keep his stafford under control. If the incident involves a person, I am sorry again the stafford is copping the blame for the deeds of some bogans pitbull". So if a dog attacks a person that looks like a SBT, your words imply it isn't a SBT but a pitbull...? Your words not mine. Please explain if this isn't what you mean. So you did say it, my facts are straight, and IMO you were being hypocritical. Time after time I'm saying I'll help you and SBT's just post something positive like a solution that we can all get on board with, instead of bloody whinging. That is exactly what he means.Deflecting the blame the same as he accuses us of doing. i know, guess he didn't like that post as he can't argue with his own words.

No I was using stats that make a mockery of your belief that no pure bred SBT could attack a person. Same as you used attacks perpetrated by supposed apbt's to give your argument some scaremongering effect. It's funny you never actually answer with a post that is in response to what I've asked you to prove. Same rubbish over and over. I have never called an apbt a SBT, nor have i ever misrepresented a SBT. I did not misrepresent the implementation of BSl in any way, not sure where you got that from. I've mentioned what I've done for the breed in a small way, yet I get the feeling you're just an armchair commentator without the fortitude to get their hands dirty. I hope you are unique amongst your Australian born, it seems your views are not restricted to animals when it comes to heritage and blood lines. hmmm.

Rep628, As an Australian I appreciate your advice. Wiseguy, I'm not sure what constitutes a Blowin, maybe you have to be 3rd Generation or something? As for missing a play, I certainly didn't. As for your comment on lies and stats. I have not written one lie about what has happened but have questioned your p.o.v and quoted the actual words you have said, in the hope to try and achieve a common belief which I feel is necessary to start working towards a common goal. Stats, how many times do I have to write that they don't mean anything to me. I quoted true statistics pulled from the QLD government under FOI act. Yes the Onatrio situation is something that we need to look towards.

No don't go back, we need people with open minds and experience.!! I think there has been a few posts about the procedure that is supposed to be followed, but it varies a little between states.

Firtsly re-read my post, i added an edit. The stats were from 2009, government stats, not mine. Again I don't care for stats, it was for your benefit and to show that SBT's owners are bringing some of this on themselves. Fact. 145 was the number in case you forgot if I need to re-iterate this figure. I'll ask again, surely you don't think they're all pitties in disguise do you? I fully understand the public and pollies reasoning that their is no place in society for dangerous dogs, I've said it before that social change needs to occur in order for us to move forward with this, along with sensible dog laws that register, educate owners and dogs etc.. We both agree that BSL doesn't work. You can't blame the entire breed for the stupidity of poor owners and the poor lives many of those dogs would've lived. If the SBT ever got added to the BSL list, I'm not going to blame you and your ilk, because clearly you do plenty to help the SBT. However I will blame all the bad owners, BYbers etc.. Just try to help yourself without shovelling more sh#t our way.

Ok guess you weren't up to the challenge, guess you never will be. Anyway while you wallow in self "pitty" I'll help the people who're keen on "moving forward" (sorry Julia). I was in the UK when BSL played out there so I am well versed in it's effects, the victims etc.. so there goes that argument. Re-read my previous post and try again, if you fail, get back on that keyboard and try again, because i know you can write a nice post. EDIT: Sadly I cannot control all APBT owners, neither could the responsible ones at the height of their demise. If it is so easy to snuff out the wick, why are you so intent on blaming everything on the APBT and the few good owners left.. why not just snuff out the issue by yourself, or do you need a bad guy to blame? because I'm not the bad guy here. Neither I may add are you. It seems that unless you can control all SBT owners, you could end up in the same position...The simple fact is you cannot control every BYBer/bogan etc.. out there, nor can I.

Look a quick search on google will also show many horrific SBT attacks. I'm not about to drag up horrific memories to serve my own purpose on a forum, I'll leave that low blow to you. Again nothing to do with me or "my people", but more likely a bad owner, and I certainly am not about to blame the parents. I feel really sorry for you that you have to bring up horrific attacks like that to use those poor victims to prove a point on a forum. A point at which serves no purpose to your cause or indeed your argument. 11 months to December 2008 Freedom of Information: In Brisabne 145 SBT attacks, 13 AST, and 12 APBT. Now these include attacks on dogs. Each incident was thoroughly investigated taking an average of 37 days to complete, and that special care had to be taken especially when a dogs life or fine was on the line. So by your reckoning none of those 145 SBT attacks couldn't of been by a pure bred SBT or on a person?. Again I'd happily fight these stats on your behalf to prove that it's not the breed but the deed and they do need to be investigated properly to ensure the attack and reasons why are recorded correctly. The problem isn't responsible owners like yourself and I, but the many BYBers of SBT's, AST's and APBT's. SBT's must surely be one of the most popular breeds in Australia so more needs to be done on getting rid of BYBers, pet shops selling dogs, education etc etc.. Here's a challenge for you Wiseguy; Post something positive. Try not to sling mud or call names. And thirdly, try to write a whole post without blaming the APBT for everything bad that is happening to the SBT, because it simply isn't true.

So I was right about you being a hypocrite. You're ready to tarnish a breed already on it's last legs to save yours. but you agreed with PF's post, that makes you a HYPOCRITE! I am not that owner in the UK, it hasn't happened here, and it is not every owner! to say you're putting up with this crap time and time again is complete lies and propaganda to protect yourself, look at the big picture. You'll end up banning AST's as well the way you're going! I was totally wrong about the lord making the world in 7 days and utterly apologise for my mistake.

When one of the tactics of the anti-BSL lobby was to offer governments statistics claiming that other dog breeds were more dangerous, is it any wonder they stood on their own? I disagreed with those tactics and many others employed. None of them worked but they kept flogging deceased equines all over the country. I have a very open mind and live in the one place in Australia where its still legal to own an APBT without restriction. I"ll fight to keep it that way but not using the tactics of old. Absolutely! Take the B.S. out of the anti BSL fight. Get people onside instead of offside. It is the only way to be successful. Wiseguy, it's funny you agree with this (which i do too), yet in another of your posts you said that if an SBT or cross attacks a person then it is a pitbull!! your reasoning being it could never be a pure bred SBT that would attack a human. Therefore you're doing exactly what it is here that you're deploring hypocrite. Show me where? Never, ever have I said such a thing. I have not even thought such rubbish. You should get your facts straight before you accuse anyone of being a hypocrite. More uninformed drivel. Will it ever end? Wiseguy, 24th Feb 2011 BSL forum, page 9 of Hon. D. Boyle Kill amstaffs thread.. I quote. "If the incident involves another dog, I'm sorry the owner didn't keep his stafford under control. If the incident involves a person, I am sorry again the stafford is copping the blame for the deeds of some bogans pitbull". So if a dog attacks a person that looks like a SBT, your words imply it isn't a SBT but a pitbull...? Your words not mine. Please explain if this isn't what you mean. So you did say it, my facts are straight, and IMO you were being hypocritical. Time after time I'm saying I'll help you and SBT's just post something positive like a solution that we can all get on board with, instead of bloody whinging.

As Ian Dunbar points out (discussing dog to dog aggression) it's not just about the number of incidents that happen but the severity of incidents. Any anti-BSL proponent who suggests that a SWF bite is likely to be a serious as an APBT one needs to rethink that. Here's the best fact you can possibly offer about Breed Specific Legisation and community safety. BSL doesn't work. That's it. Have a good look at the Calgary approach to dangerous dogs in the community - it worked beautifully because it targetted owners and dangerous dogs. I agree, and I have read about Calgary. As far as severity goes, sure SWF's will not cause as much damage as a large dog, and I'm certainly not suggesting that, (i know you're not saying i did, just clarifying).

When one of the tactics of the anti-BSL lobby was to offer governments statistics claiming that other dog breeds were more dangerous, is it any wonder they stood on their own? I disagreed with those tactics and many others employed. None of them worked but they kept flogging deceased equines all over the country. I have a very open mind and live in the one place in Australia where its still legal to own an APBT without restriction. I"ll fight to keep it that way but not using the tactics of old. Absolutely! Take the B.S. out of the anti BSL fight. Get people onside instead of offside. It is the only way to be successful. Wiseguy, it's funny you agree with this (which i do too), yet in another of your posts you said that if an SBT or cross attacks a person then it is a pitbull!! your reasoning being it could never be a pure bred SBT that would attack a human. Therefore you're doing exactly what it is here that you're deploring hypocrite.

When one of the tactics of the anti-BSL lobby was to offer governments statistics claiming that other dog breeds were more dangerous, is it any wonder they stood on their own? I disagreed with those tactics and many others employed. None of them worked but they kept flogging deceased equines all over the country. I have a very open mind and live in the one place in Australia where its still legal to own an APBT without restriction. I"ll fight to keep it that way but not using the tactics of old. I agree PF, I was not personally aware of BSL when it was first introduced, i can certainly understand why people would be less than impressed with those tactics (no matter how factual it may be) maybe they thought dogs higher on the list wouldn't suffer the same stigma that still haunts the APBT because many of the dogs on the bite stats list aren't fighting dogs, and may have been safe from BSL, whereas it seems the government just took one look at all fighting breeds and decided they should ban them first. You're certainly right that placing other breeds in the spotlight isn't the right way to go and I think many posters on this forum are hopefully moving away from saying things like, SWF's bite more than APBTs (even though it may be true)

Sorry Poodlefan, I meant State level legislation.

What have I just claimed with regards to the Chivers case? Bloody legends in my eye's, maybe you should ask Jon for some pointers and tips on how to deal with the laws, in fact if they hadn't fought this case all the way the laws wouldn't have been changed at federal level and provided the route for the AKNC to safeguard the AST, albeit in a round about way! possibly a few mistakes but no regrets. Still your posts are personally aimed at me, I've said I'll help you, I've asked for proof of your accusations, still nothing, not one solution I made no reference to AKNC GSD's, where did i mention AKNC GSD's weren't upto standard? oh that's right i didn't... The police have to follow strict guidelines on their purchase of dogs, ethically bred etc.. to meet their own auditing requirements. Same as any business has preferred suppliers that meet quality assurance standards, business insurance, registration etc.. Luckily the Police in the USA can rely upon people like Diane Jessup to provide APBT to perform their work alongside them.

Have i said anything to the contrary? I did ask you to read rep628's earlier post on this, to which i agree. Funny that as mentioned by rep628 working GSD's in Germany are the only GSD's worth breeding, same breed as their show counterparts but very different. Though i do believe that many AST's (AKNC) would be more than capable of earning working dog titles, not just agility. It's funny cause i thought you were of the opinion that the AST is it's own breed, so far removed from the APBT that it should be recognised as it's own breed and not subject to BSL, (which it shouldn't be, same as the APBT shouldn't). yet you call it the true APBT (how can it be if it hasn't been worked for 75 years) In that case.. should anyone calling their dog true APBT only have the right to do so if they're game bred fighting dogs from old fighting blood lines? which would mean that there are very few about and that all of our APBT's are in fact AST's ?as they've been bred for family pets, show dogs, shutzhund etc.. Yet you flamed Kylie Chivers for bringing the good name of the AST down by saying it was the same breed as APBT, yet you believe her!! and are saying so publicly therefore further denigrating the AST in your own words! pot this is kettle, are you black? why no sir i'm a very very dark shade of grey mixed with black that in the eyes of many i look completely black but i don't believe it..

I have taken it upon myself to promote the SBT at the local school whilst doing a talk, educate people on some of the differences between bull breeds, mainly sizes and how the SBT is not APBT!! Also having a young daughter I've promoted dog ownership at playgroup and the do's / don'ts of dog interaction and children, i am but one person letting everyone I know about responsible dog ownership, in fact I think it pisses everyone off on how much I harp on about it I have no idea why i'm a threat to the SBT or any other bull breed, I am not pointing any fingers and it's like you're trying to use the same argument that we've used to prove on this thread that you're barking up the wrong tree. eg, APBT people say they had no help from people "like you" now you're blaming us for apparently putting the SBT in a similar predicament. If you do actually read any of the posts, you'll see I've asked time and again for proof of when and how an APBT has been id'd as a SBT during a dog attack. I've also asked you to come up with a solution and we'll support you, apparently you just want to win a discussion on a forum instead of actually taking any action. Please make your next post positive, enough with the deceipt, lies, name calling etc.. because it really serves no purpose in the grand scheme on things. People should be able to view this forum and be educated about BSL, positive ownership etc.. not get confused by hearsay, supposition and accusations about how the APBT is at fault for anything that is perpetrated by a SBT or it's crosses.

Thanks for a decent post Rep628. Your last post on this thread was really good and probably opened my eyes up to a few things. It certainly should make people not ponder what side of the fence they sit on but why aren't we all sitting on the same side together fighting BSL. I posted on the news thread about Scotland changing its dog laws to Deed not breed, hopefully they have the details right and it succeeds in reducing dog attacks and improving dog ownership.

Look I found out about BSL because I had a SBT, most general people thought he was a pitbull even though to anyone with any idea about dogs etc.. he clearly wasn't. So I read and I read and I lobbied my local MP state MP's ad infinitum All the good people of the Gold Coast that fought BSL done so as they felt so disgraced that no-one was fighting the good fight. By not fighting BSL the AKNC is condoning it. That's a fact and I'm not blaming anyone, neither am I ashamed that I continue to deal with narrow minded petty "dog lovers" who think that their dog is better than another by virtue of paperwork, you Sir Wiseguy should spend more time fighting a good cause and less running away from the problem that is BSL. By protecting only your breed you're as guilty as the rest, and as shortsighted. You say you think there are pure bred APBT's in one post then you post above that Quote, "couldn't possibly be pure breeds". Look this point really is mute so don't think i care to argue, just stating what you've posted. The bottom line is the APBT is on the list, we don't wont any other breeds on the list and I will certainly join any fight to save them, but not at the risk of further tarnishing the already awful reputation of the APBT. Actually if the SBT is in as much trouble as you believe just post on here what you want us to do and i can guarantee you that all the people you've been winding up on here will certainly help out, but if you ask them to call any cross breed of a staffy a pitbull you'll probably not get any help.

QLD has put in place legislation that declare the amstaff different to that of the pitbull. So they are not effected by BSL. AKNC papers are now proof of innocence, surely you couldn't of missed everything that went down in QLD, it was all over the forum. Perhaps read the whole thread on the Deslye Boyle link it may be in there... Basically the GCCC stopped registering amstaffs during this court proceeding and waited for state level management to make a call, especially once they realised the gravity of the court case and that thousands of registered dogs may have had to be PTS and this certainly was the big ticket event in them realising that they perhaps had got it wrong. Not wanting to lose face, they let the QLD government make amendments to the animal control act and that was done with handshakes and dealings with the AKNC, more or less sealing the fate of thousands of mixed breed lookalike dogs who were bred at the hands of unethical breeders and are condemned even further by the ANKC not wanting to save them, just saving their own kind, thus feathering the nest of it's breeders, (not a bad thing if they were all ethical!! as i'd pay good money for a well bred dog, i just feel bad for all the mongrels who're going to suffer), though not helping fight BSL. Also as a result of the Chivers case it was determined that there is no-one in Australia capable of identifying an APBT, so out went the 22 point checklist. As of now the GCCC has been found using an illegal checklist to determine a dogs breed, it seems they will stop at nothing to kill anything that resemble a pitbull. Tango is back in QLD. I think rottenbullies is right, you're definitely a reincarnation of a former member.

Just look around the breeders of AST's, i've seen small AST's perhaps 15-18kgs upto 45kgs!!! how's that for a difference. Now these big amstaffs (lots of big blue jowly dogs) are AKNC rego'd. You harp on about how the APBT has varied, look in your own back yard and see the differences in amstaffs available from rego'd breeders. If you went to a ADBA show and compared it to an AKNC amstaff show, i think you would find more range of type in the amstaffs. At the moment I don't see and difference between the AKNC and the UKC with the type of breeders they're allowing to represent the breed. There are some great amstaff breeders on this site, keeping them true to type and to standard, but you can't deny the fact that there is a growing trend that bigger is better and it's ruining the breed from within your precious registry, and what is the AKNC doing about it? hmmmmm? ponder that for me?

In a win against BSL Scotland has introduced new laws that will focus on Deed not breed and punish irresponsible owners. Great news and forward thinking, if only Australia could follow suit. For anyone wishing to read more search, "Asbos Scotland".

Not trotting out petulant nonsense, i did not say "ours are performance registers". You have an issue and it's clearly deeply rooted and existed before i started posting on this forum. I wish you all the best in showing your "work" at your "prestigious events" to find your "holy grail". The rest of us will stick with enjoying our dogs for what they bring into our lives regardless of breed. PS, when you quote someone the other person has to have actually posted the information in the first instance. Plus i'd also back a UKC titled super dog over any AKC agility dog, any given day..

They will register the dogs but they will call them APBT. So Wiseguy if you firmly believe that the AST is a pure bred pitbull, so why not rename all the AST's APBT in the name of originality etc..? If you're trying to convert APBT people into believing their chosen dogs are not pure bred you're going to have a hard task. No matter how right you think you are, i think a dog that has been bred under the ADBA standards since 1909 with many many years of lineage and proof of parentage is pure enough for me. If you believe that somehow that dog isn't pure bred because the AKC say's so, your head must be (to be polite) stuck in the sand.