geo

Did i say that cross breeds have standards? maybe we have our wires crossed. Edited to add: Yes a blueprint but still an ideal, i'm sure you know not all dogs fit their breed standard. I agree about the public access but using it as an ID'ing tool as i keep saying is totally flawed as many cross breeds will fit into the standard, and i that's the whole point. Judges can freely judge knowing that what they are judging against is a pure bred dog. By your reckoning i could use the ADBA standard to judge my dogs, see that they fit the standard (or partly do) and ask for them to be registered as pure breds. The ABDA is just stating that it is to be used on pure bred dogs only. If i took my mongrel to the dog show and said look i think he's a staffy i want to show him and breed him, he fits the standard, but he's not a rego'd pure breed, they'd think i'm crazy.. but then i could say hey, you published your standard i demand that you register him... i think they'd tell me where to go!

Sorry, but your rationale is a little leftish leaning skewywhiff. when under the pump, who in their right mind would admit, to authorities on a mission of destruction, their dog was an unregistered pure breed APBT, or even a cross of a pure breed APBT No one. No one of sound mind & body anyway. If, by some cataclysmic alignment of the planets, someone did, third party I.D. (opinion) wouldn't be necessary, would it? Not sure what you're getting at..? did i mention anything about people admitting they have an APBT... It was about the use of the standard. The standard is a made up ideal by people in the pure breed dogs registries to measure their dogs against. How is it the ideal IDing tool when it can encompass cross breeds of unknown origins? surely that makes it a completely useless tool. Now if they had DNA code that tested especially for APBT then that would be undenialble proof, which a breed standard does not carry, therefore leaving it fully open to reasonable doubt. Again as you said it comes full circle and we have cases like that of proving a dog is an amstaff or pitbull..... There is just too much room for error.

Yep, but the standard should only be applied to dogs of proven heritage, so if it's applied to a cross breed that fits the standard then it will have been applied incorrectly.. which is why they state that it is only to be applied to pure bred dogs. In a court of law who knows how it would play out?! Once you put anything on the net, it is always going to be used by someone else.. sadly in this case for all the wrong reasons.

Ok so the standard is applied by people with experience judging breeds of a known heritage. Not by people who have no idea how to apply a standard. The last time i looked the UKC standard had a larger weight range, though a similar standard you'll find UKC / ADBA judges have a completely different view of what the APBT is. Yes I know about the AKC not registering APBT's et al,that's why i said "type", and yes their standards vary. As for the ADBA accepting other breed standards, i'm sure they use breed judges of many years experience to judge a dogs quality of a proven breed, not use them to identify dogs. It is a confusing topic, but consider that a lab/staffy cross or any bull breed / terrier cross could produce a dog that fits the breed discriptors, but is not a purte bred dog.

Nope not the case, it is used to measure dogs of a proven breed, cannot be used for identification as stipulated by their lawyers, and it is only used by sanctioned judges not council workers to decide the fate of a poor dog. ADBA, UKC and AKC all have different standards for essentially the same 'type' of dog.

Yes I do becuse most Pitbull Advocates want to pretend like t didn't happen. You ,however ,are looking for a reason to blame the Victim for the fatal attack. Youkeep hrping on about "why the attack took place..." Why does it matter? Does anything that Darla may or may not have done justify a fatal attack? Should society be subject to dogs that may kill you depending on your behavior? Is knowing the answer to this question worth a life? 2? How many? The Pitbull advocates often promote the fallacy of idiots moving from one breed to the next This is a lie. Not true and is not borne out by municipalities that have adopted BSL which include these US states Alabama, Arkansas ,California, Colorado. Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota Oklahoma, Ohio, Oregon Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin, District of Columbia Many foreign countries have enacted breed-specific laws to protect citizens from dangerous dogs and to stop the importation of fighting dogs (pit bulls). Countries include Argentina, Bavaria, Bermuda, Denmark, Ecuador, France, Guyana, Israel, Italy, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, Puerto Rico, Romania, Singapore, Spain, St. Kitts and Nevis, Turkey, the UAE, United Kingdom, Venezuela and parts of Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Germany, Ireland, Malaysia, China and Japan. Didn't you listen to the Radio interview with Assistant City Attorney Don Bauermeister, there is a LOT of information about how BSL has worked in Council Bluffs, Iowa? I'm fairly happy with the legislation the way it is written although it doesn't go far enough AFAIK. Pit Bull, American Staffordshire Terrier, American Bulldogs, and Yorkies, Whatever you want to call them, are all the same thing. I haven't harped on about anything, i merely question your reasons to be so pro BSL when it hasn't stopped dog attacks? BSL is in Victoria and has been for years, did it stop anything? nope. because dog attacks are occuring everyday by many other breeds, but hey you don't care about that do you. I doubt you have any experience with pitbulls so you until you have you should possibly not comment.

Clubsport, did you read this?

I'll assume you're addressing Darla Napora's fatal attack. She had had the dog since it was a puppy. She was a member of a Pitbull Action group. Are you going to say that she must have mistreated the dog? How is my post "obvious emotion invoking"? I'm not trying to "piss people off". Show me where anyone that is not a Pitbull Advocate or AntiBSL is going to be annoyed by my posts? Zara asked if BSL works. The Pitbull Advocates like yourself want to trot out the same old story of "BSL doesn't work". Blah Blah Blah. It does work, I've shown it does. Did you listen to the Radio Stream? Bet you didn't because it's not what you want to hear. Are you going to explain Darla Napora's fatal attack or do the usual Pitbull Advocates thing of "blame the victim"? Oh you've already done that "Hey Clubsprint, how about the entire history of the dog and it's relationship with humans. Is that enough proof?" OK, away you go, tell us all about it? I'm here to speak for the other side. If you're not a Pitbull Advocate why would you get upset at my posts? You keep harping on about Darla Napora... yes she was a pitbull advocate, but nowhere do any articles relating to her death explain why the attack took place... Same as all the other attacks by other breeds.. no-one has learnt and they wont with BSL, that is a fact. BSL gets rid of one breed then the next will be in the headlines, and Joe Blogs will still be none the wiser as far as responsible ownership is concerned. It sounds like you're not interested in truly helping the general public understand responsible ownership and understand what can lead to a dog biting you.... you seem more interested in the monster that the media portays.. I'd like to know what your stance is on Amstaffs, staffies, bull terriers, mastiifs, (i could go on) is? should they be banned too?

Its not unfounded - it has happened in other countries. I am pretty sure you have been pointed to documents that demonstrate this. Unfounded. Where is the proof? Links will be fine. See, I'm a troll and get no respect because I disagree. Show me some credible evidence not source from a Pitbull Advocate? Again links will be fine. eg. Toronto, Canada Population 2,503,281 In a March 2008 Toronto Sun article, Toronto animal services reported that pit bull biting incidents had dropped significantly since the adoption of the Dog Owners Liability Act 2005, an act that banned pit bulls: "And reports of bites by pit bull type dogs have dropped dramatically. In 2004, the animal services department received reports about 130 of the powerful animals biting humans and animals. The numbers dropped by substantial increments in subsequent years: 71 in 2005; 53 in 2006; and 44 in 2007." Zen Ruryk, "One endangered species," The Toronto Sun, March 2, 2008 (www.torontosun.com) (Archived by You can check the offsite links from http://blog.dogsbite.org/2010/06/cities-with-successful-pit-bull-laws.html or try http://www.heartlandconnection.com/news/story.aspx?id=481775 http://www.heartlandconnection.com/news/story.aspx?id=481570 http://www.dogsbite.org/media/radio/93wibc-don-bauermeister-03052010.mp3 Just listen to the stream The are plenty of examples of BSL working to reduce the incidents of dog bites but the Pitbull Advocates will be very quiet about that as the BSL is generally focused on Pitbulls. Again still no response about Darla Napora. There are plenty of other breeds that have killed their owners.. but you don't see us banging on about them here. There was one thread that listed heaps but only to prove to someone else who wouldn't believe attacks by other breeds happened. It seems you have an agenda against the breed... good for you. However it seems that you only want to believe 1 side of the story. There are plenty of well adjusted, socialised pitbull pets but you think we should just kill them because you're so right?? hmmmmm..

I agree with most of your post but haven't really come across people doing this, i've come across the stupid people breeding big uncontrollable dogs and not care about where they're going but not "dangerous" what makes a dog dangerous? one that has been labelled by the council? a particular breed? a banned breed? or one who the bogans think they have made aggressive behind a fence?

Some chose their dogs on stereotypes, masculine dogs do attract people who may want to appear tough, and many of these dogs are treated just fine despite their owners appearance. The people who want dogs for aggression don't exactly research what it is they need they just chose on fashion and stereotypes and the media does a great job in helping them decide along with all the bans in place.. ie "i am tough and the law can go jump, i even own an illegal dog!" hell these idiots will get any dog that resembles a pitbull and call it one and they're all now buying amstaffs, or larger cross breeds as the true APBT is not a big enough dog for them. No one said they all have the potential to work equally as this is completely different, however any dog of similar size has the capability to cause just as severe an injury as an APBT. I hope that helps.

I think this is spot comment with regard to a large proportion of dog owners who think their dog breed could never do what the media say's an APBT supposedly does for breakfast, lunch, and dinner...

I love the way people keep coming up with how all dogs are the same and breed makes no difference in their aggression responses? Perhaps we shoulkd ask police or security dog trainers why they don't use hounds and retrievers and ask Jack the Lad why he has a Pitbull to guard his crop? I am not a BSL supporter, but at least look at the big picture for an informed decision. Sure sounds like you're a BSL supporter and have absolutely no idea what you're on about.

??? I don't think idiot irresponsible owners intended to bring this on. They were just doing their dumb ass macho bloodthirsty thing without regard to the consequences. If responsible owners had been more involved in enforcing control on those who prefer mean dogs and don't properly train or socialise, this awful mess might have been avoided. Governments generally aren't very smart unless they get input from people on the ground who know what is going on. I believe it is a mix and have said many times on here that you only have to look at some of the amstaff breeder adverts on here to see what some of them are breeding and the type they're after.. of course it's going to appeal to the bogan spectrum.

BSL does not work. Fact. Trends along the chained/untrained theory are more likely to be the case not breed specific trends as really unless every case is reported on accurately "trends" mean absolutely nothing... and the media hype you mention is just that. There are many many threads on this forum you should read that mentions actual cases where BSL has failed and newer dog laws are being introduced.

Yep i have emailed them, and sent them the link to the Voctorian Gazette publication that is being used by councils to enact this search and destroy of anything resembling a pitbull. But please send more info!! if anyone has any!

The UKC legal counsel contact details are [email protected] It seems the Victorian standard has just been copied from the UKC standard which is not to be used for breed ID. If any people would like to forward any useful information please do so. Thanks

Yeah the UKC Breed Standard has a disclaimer on it about not being used to identify dogs as a certain breed. Also the DeFrey Vs Logan City Council case had a spokesperson from the UKC as a witness to states that their breed standard could not be used as a breed identifier. Someone needs to take the Council or State Govt (Vic) to court when they have their dog taken and have the "Standard" disproven in court. I've contacted the UKC but haven't heard anything back.

Donatella, Please do a little more reading to find out about the true APBT. Spring poles, treadmills, etc..a re all healthy ways of exercising your dog and keeping them mentally stimulated. My friend cages his pitbull, she is lovely, very friendly but due to the legislation / stigma lacks some socialisation with other animals. except her neighbours dosg who she likes to play with. The whole concept of dobbing in a dog just on social prejudice is just so wrong and now many many pets will die.

Could the UKC do anything about them using their standard to basically inact BSL? I'm sure it has a disclaimer on it.

Oh and another thing, since when does a dog maul a bone?? you've been reading too many headlines!! god forbid you should walk past my back yard and watch my dogs "maul" there toys! Does your dog "maul" its bone? What will you say when you report them? "I'd like to report a dog, contained in its back yard, caged, signed fence, playing with a toy..."

1. the dog was in it's own yard 2. it wasn't out mauling a child or dog but rather playing in it's yard 3. you don't know they've raised it to be aggressive 4. lots of people have beware of the dog or dangerous dog signs on their house How bloody judgemental and at least when you passed, the owners WERE being responsible. the owners were standing around cheering it on as it was mauling something in its fenced off area (they had fenced off a section of the backyard). it looked utterly suspicious, the men looked suspicious and i might just report it to have it checked up on. I'm allowed to feel safe in my neighbourhood. How judgemental you are Donatella, and you're not going to be attacked by a dog in a cage! it's because of people like you that we're now dealing with a situation where peoples pets are going to be taken away from them!! Reporting this will not make you or anyone else any safer, don't you get it?!

I hope you leave out the part where you want ABs banned, and the APBT didn't get us into any mess, you can thank many other people but don't blame the breed.

Are you serious? why? because they don't suit everyone or because you think the wrong type of owners will be attracted to them, just like staffies, rottis, dobe's,mastiffs, amstaffs (just look at how many puppies are available!)Akitas etc.. Adding dogs to the restricted list is plain ignorance and as someone has mentioned not in line with other comments you have made?

I think this happened quite a while ago, and the NT news rehashed an old story to jump on the pitbull media bandwagon, they've done it before and will do it again. That paper is the biggest load of crap i've ever read, though they probably have to dumb it down for its readers! Of course still a horrible story for the woman and her dogs. And yep no shortage of bulldog crosses up here, along with poor owners.