dasha

I have taught my dogs left and right. The older one is better at it as she is more determined to do the obstacles. For her "BACK" is left and "COME" is right. It means the same thing no matter what side of me she is on although she is usually way out in front being a Kelpie. She was taught this on the flat with a long line on and then set it up with the line of jumps and offset ones and then threw her ball or toy to land on the other side of the jump she was directed to go to so when she went the correct way, her reward would plop in front of her. This also encouraged her to work away from me but still be listening for directions with an incentive to obey. As she is a very hard headed dog I felt it better to be able to guide her with steering rather than have to keep blocking her and yelling (as she has selective hearing) to call her off incorrect obstacles in order to get around a course. The younger dog is the opposite and is very body language affected and voice affected as she is very sensitive and soft.

You already sound pretty keen on it and personally I think that it is your choice. from what you have said so far the pup doesn't seem to have a problem when it encountered the outside world and in fact thoroughly thrived on it. I would say if it didn't have any fearful tendancies or negative reactions to normal everyday things, and has the drives you want, give it a go. You seem to have looked up her lines and relatives and like what you have seen. I wouldn't let people that have never seen the dog and how it behaves decide for me whether I should have it or not. I don't know anything about training for shutzhund though so you would know better if it suits or not.

Ok, 1 last try....... I wil be at Casterton this year. I am going down by myself from Sydney so if anyone else is down there and wants to meet up, I will be more than happy to meet some new people. As I am leaving to go tomorrow, I will not be able to check on here to get any contact details.................................so if you see a girl driving a Blue Nissan Navara ute with 2 Red and Tan Kelpies on board (or they maybe in on the back seat) with NSW number plates, it is probably me so feel free to come and talk to me. I am staying at the hotel in town there near the river (I think) but it is at the Hamilton end of main street. Otherwise you can PM me tonight for contact details or PM me your number so I can get in contact with you.

Well said Tangwyn

I have sent an e-mail registering an interest for one of my dogs. I hope someone is able to offer soem advice on fixing our issues Besides, I live fairly close to there so travelling to there is no problem.

Is the going to be a DOLer meet at Casterton this year???

So who is going to be there and where are you staying? I will be driving down on the Fri from Sydney. Prob leaving on the Mon

I will be making the trek down there this year. I went a couple of years ago with Jesomil and it was fun. Would be good to meet some other DOLers with kelpies too.

I personally feel that dogs adapt to the situtation they are in and act accordingly. I do 3 sheep training, agility and a bit of obedience with the dogs and they don't get confused at all. I think give them credit for the brains they have. I don't think it is any different to going to school. In 1 day we used to do Maths, English, Science, Ag etc and don't remember my maths getting me confused with my english classes. :D

Hi Vickie, She looks pretty good there for her 2nd time. I would probably give her some more runs over the cooler months rather than resting her then. If you are going to take Trim somewhere you may as well give Shine a run. She doesn't look like she has any real prob to work on so a few nice easy positive runs for her in succession would be beneficial for her in my non professioanl opinion.

I haven't taught my dogs a particular position on any contacts. However I have taught them "stop' If they are running a bit eratic and what I feel is too fast I will just say stop at the point which will break their stride and they will brace to stop and then when they hit the colour I say Go and they can therefore continue with just a basic pause in stride to get the contact. Obviously they need a pretty solid immediate stop and it needs to be reinforced in all situations that they don't move until released. That way you can get away with releasing sometimes before the stop is completed. Having said that, if they are striding correctly and are going to touch anyway, I will let them complete the dogwalk running. I don't want them anticipating the stop all the time with 2o2o and therefore losing time slowing and then stopping sometimes creeping down the whole down side as I have seem in a lot of dogs over the years. I feel it suits me and my dogs better as they are very fast. It also allows me to stop them at the balance point of see saw without them bolting to have it hit the ground so they can get 2o2o in a hurry. I can also use the stop anywhere I want so if there is a tight spot I can use it to balance them better as sometimes on tight turns the stride is so long it puts them in line with the wrong obstacles. I can also use it to catch up to them if needed as I will use the stop on dogwalk so I can catch up to the buggers.

Like Wally2020 said. I have also found if you loop the 2nd collar through the 1st one before doing it up, it acts as a bit of a back up. It is very hard to pull the 2nd collar off as the 1st one is mobile and they can't get the pull on it. (If you can understand what I mean) Our friends farm dogs that are inclined to slip collars are secured in this manner and haven't had any other problems. This also means she can run around on the lead and it won't hurt her if she hits the end of it like a pinch collar would as you are trying to allow the exercise thing as well.

Hi Vickie, Depending on the weekend I would be interested in coming. I can give my 2 a run. That would be HA DA DI Its been a while but I am prepared to tackle the sport again. I think Dash has missed it a lot!!!!

I clip my Border Collie with a #10 blade once or twice a year depending. His coat hasn't been damaged at all due to this clipping method. I have also clipped him all over in the past with the horse clippers (the large 3 inch wide blades) and his coat grows back fine. When I worked in the vets we clipped 100's dogs off with the large horse clippers like GSD, BC and Golden Retrievers and they looked fantastic with the short cuts. Some individual dogs coats didn't handle the clipping but on the whole, most dogs coats were healthy the following clip time and didn't have any adverse effects. Clipping is an individual choice and what some people think is apalling, others think is fantastic.

Hi there, In my opinion if there was a pup that had great drive but a little independant and a pup that had less drive but wanted to be with you, take the pup with better drive. If you are aware the pup is a little independant from a youmg age, you can always do exercises to persuade him from a early age that it is you that has the final word. At least you will have the drive and training later. If you can understand what I mean. I feel that it would be better than a dog that saunters out to fetch the bird and bring it back as well as enjoy the scenery!

I have seen and heard a fair bit about this new herding craze in the last 12 months or so and after what I have seen and heard, a few questions have come to mind and a few concerns have also entered my mind. I would just like some experienced herding triallers to to clarify a few things so I can rest easy. I have not participated myself in this activity and at this stage will just stick with 3 sheep trialling and yard work until a few things are sorted regarding the herding. One of my major concerns is the amount of "grippy" dogs there are that are allowed amongst the innocent prey animals with relatively little control over the K9 component of the team. I have seen some rather agressive tendancies from some dogs and have heard of some rather nasty injuries sustained by sheep by particular dogs on numerous occassions. I am wondering at what point does the Regulatory body decide that a dog has not got the desired traits to be a herding dog and if there is any kind of reprimands to owners of such unsuitable dogs. Like are owners asked not to bring the dog back for 6 months or something like they do if a dog bites at any other obedience/agility trial scenario. If trainers are running clinics to encourage herding people are they also obliged to inform the Reg body of any unacceptable behaviour like submitting incident reports or something similar so that any incident is documented so that if there is a trend for say an individual dog has repeatedly done wrong, the owner can be asked not to bring that dog back until it is better trained or until it passes an assessment of suitability or something. At what point does someone take responsibilty for the types of dogs and their actions. Another major concern I have is the welfare of the sheep. I know that Yard Dog triallers and 3 sheep triallers have battled constantly with animal welfare organisations and are constantly under their watchful eye. These sheep sports have had to have the sheeps welfare at the absolute top of the list on any given day. Dogs that bite are removed, dogs that run the sheep too much are generally either asked to retire, on a hot day a trial may be cancelled as the sheep will be too hot to be moved around a course with highly trained experienced dogs. I worry that if any of the animal welfare see or hear of any of the things I have seen so far in such a short amount of time that herding has been around, that any sport that uses sheep with be entirely banned. If all sheep trialling is banned due to the short term gain for a few titles or "just to let the dog have a bit of fun" it will be a terrible day. People will gather at canine grounds one day and reminise(sp) of the days there used to be sheep dog trials. So if anyone can please provide any information to settle my mind, I would be forever grateful. I am not looking to get flamed or anything, just some sensible answers.

Kayne, In regards to your problem with your dog not liking to go between the fence and sheep I know what you are talking about. I had the same issue with my Kelpie as she is a very soft worker and likes to work at a distance from the sheep. She would just quietly follow around behind and slowly just edge her way when possible to make it to the head. SHe does not like to get bustled around like some of the other 'ruffians' I got her more confident by putting her in the force packed loosely with sheep and put her at the fence. I stood roughly in the middle but you need to stand so you can hold his/her collar to guide through. It also puts you in a position to turn a sheep for the dog if it is facing it and putting it off. Looking directly in the face of a sheep is a very confronting thing for a dog that prefers to be a bit futher from them, thats why backing is usually easy for the dog to run from the back to the front but when the dog turns around there is a sea of sheep staring at the poor dog so it takes a bit of confidence to run towards teh faces and over the top. Back to the force.......... by putting the dog between the fence and sheep when there is solid mob of sheep, it also makes it harder for the dog to get between you and the sheep as it is easier to move around the outside rather than bustle though and besides you are able to reach the dogs collar to guide it around with one hand as well as turning a confronting sheeps face away if needed. In this scenario when trying to get the confidence to move around the sheep so close. you may need to forgive a few indescretions such as possibly snapping at the noses of sheep that are being a bit confronting (within reason) as apart from the fact it may be out of nervousness, it also reinforces to the dog that is it capable of moving sheep as the sheep will generally turn or back off after the dog gives it a fright. You just have to make it really fun for the dog and help him by assisting and moving the sheep as well so he thinks it is him. Good luck

I think as a handler, you have the right to call the dog to you any time and for any reason and it should be the one command. It should do it because it is told to, not because it may or may not get rewarded. well in an ideal world maybe! but even the very best working handlers i know have had to find a way to get the dog to WANT to do what you want it to do, or at the very least to get it to understand whats required. they dont understand the meaning of words unless theyve been shown the associated behaviour was all i was trying to say. IMO in the REAL world the dog is still required to obey a command. It is not a matter of whether the dogs wants to or not. Good sheepdog triallers have their dogs trained to be receptive and obedient. The handler has read the rule book and knows what is required of a working dog in trials. There is no room for a dog to decide it doesn't want to. Left means left no matter what the dog thinks when you get to the higher levels. Maybe in the level your dog is at, you still need to let your dog decide things in order to gain confidence or something but when you are in a timed event and your are at the pen gate ready to shut it against the clock, the dog moves exactly where you ask it not wait for it to head them and then push them back out the gate! I agree with Jesomil that you have the right to call your dog to you at any time and the dog is to oblige. This is in any situation not just around sheep. Reward or not a command is a command in my books. If the dog is trained and knows the command it knows the behaviour required. Vickie, Trim seems to have a very good understanding of her commands and is very obedient. I think the methods you have used have worked well. We all know every dog is different and things that may work with one dog may not be good for another. If it works for your dog it is the right thing to do Kavik, what sory of sheep trialling sport are you looking at getting in to with your dog?? If you are wanting watch dogs work sheep to learn, I would advise you watch some of the older more experienced triallers and watch how the dogs perform and what kind of precision you need in the commands. If you are interested in yard work, it is best to travel to the trials and watch so you know the end result you are aiming for. Likewise for 3 sheep work. There is a Short course trial on this weekend at Erskine Park if you wanted to watch some very experienced triallers (and some not so experienced) to give you an idea of working dogs and different styles.

For my dogs I use Left - Clockwise Right - Anticlockwise Stop - In a drop as I feel it is more stable and they don't go until I say. Wait there- is a stop but standing ready to break to cover or just to wait for a sec. If they break a wait command to cover if needed that is fine but a Stop is a Stop until I release. I need to be able to know my dog is where I stopped it so I can turn to latch a gate or talk to someone and teh dog won't run off and work unasked. Back off- When they are a bit close Push - for when in the race and they need to get closer or be a bit more forceful Speak - to bark Lay down - For when we are waiting to go in the ring or just to be at ease Get up - to back the sheep Walk up - to walk 1 step at a time on the sheep so they are not startled but increasing pressure Steady - to slow then down incase they start to panic and run the sheep Behind - to come behind me whether it is while working the sheep ( to help prevent crossing) or we are walking and she gets in front That'll do - means finished working and to be at ease with the sheep and even if the sheep are running, they are to stop and wait for a command Also have a shish noise to make her go faster and to be a bit keener to rev her up on the sheep Most of the commands I taught her without sheep. If they know the commands away fom the sheep they grasp it faster with the sheep there as a distraction. I also give directions and practice them like lunging a horse and also for things like sending them ofter the ball or the other dogs. Making thembehind me to get in them, sending thema direction to get to their beds or the ball. Walk up on the ball or the other dogs if they are trying to work the other dogs or cats or horses or birds. I basically look for an oppottunity to test their listening or recognition of the commands in all areas so I know they understand what I am telling them to do.

My dogs eat rabbits (fresh) quite often. We have never had a problem with the transference of diseases from rabbits to dogs. I am pretty sure that myxo and calici are species specific. Just the other day we saw a rabbit on our driveway so I got my faster kelpie out and pointed it out to her as we wanted to catch it. ( I was going to practice skinning and then feed it to the dogs). She caught it for us but raced around the house with us after her trying to get the rabbit from her but she ate the whole thing in about 1 minute flat. It was only little though. ANyway, the dogs catch them often and love them.

I also have fond memories of your beloved dog. Yes, she was a once in a lifetime companion. She was an absolute joy to be around and to have around and is missed by a lot of people. It is a shame she didn't stay long enough to see your daughter. She would be so proud

I think you need consistency after reading your posts. You say he has to be an outside dog now but then when you let him in he whines etc to get out, sometimes he goes to sleep when you do. Then you say at the new house he is allowed in but then he is not. The poor little fella doesn't know whether is is coming or going! 6 months is old enough to be outdoors if you want an outdoor dog. It is not winter or anything so he will cope. No-one is making him sit on the concrete. You said he has a bed and there is a backyard which I assume has grass or something in it. Dogs will curl up on the lawn if they want even if they have beds! I think he sits at the door as he knows you will let him in shortly and then he can steal yummy fun things. Definately go to training school so you can learn how to train him to fit in with your expectation of how you want your dog to behave.

I would like to make a point that I think that dogged sheep are not as much benefit to some as you would like to think. I will use one of my experiences. I entered a 3 sheep trial and figured I would practice some casts, not to lift then to bring them but just cast even and head and fine tune some distance commands. I wanted my dog to get used to the louder commands that are needed for distance work. Anyway, I lef tmy dog outside the yard and pushed (practically with my hands) my "trained sheep" to the far end of the paddock and let them settle. I then went and got my dog, entered the paddock with my dog behind me, I stopped her and stepped aside ready to do my cast only to look up and find 4 really well trained sheep lift their heads and run towards me (in a nice straight lift) and gather in front of me and my dog (who was still waiting for me to send her!!!) I am hoping someone can tell me where I should be looking to see the benefit of these sheep for my dog. The only 1 I can think of is that we practised her distracted stop and resisted the urge to finish the lift off. I do think that some quiet dog accustomed sheep to have a place but Dogged sheep don't. When the sheep have been used for 2 years, they are of minimum benefit to anyone.

I called RSPCA re Milo and he is still available. I spoke to a lady that answered the phone as Cherie wasn't in. Apparently once he is in adoptions he is there until he finds a home (unless he goes too crazy in the kennels then will be Euthanased for his own health) I am a little stunned as I enquired about the idea of him going to be a detector dog as I wanted to get a bit more of an idea of his temperament and they said he wouldn't be sold for this purpose as he would be in kennels overnight and not with people. They sell dogs to be pets only. I mentioned that there is probably a lot of pet dogs that get locked in a kennel overnight so I fail to see this as a reason to deny the dog a great life. Our detector dogs love life and are only in kennels overnight. On their days off they run around in large yards with other dogs and when working they are out playing hide and seek with a toy! go to the beach, walk in the park, do some work, play again.And from what i heard Milo loves that. I personally think that it is crazy to hold kenneling overnight as an unsuitable adaoption. We have sourced other dogs from RSPCA shelters in other areas and other animal shelters with great results when staff are open minded in what is better for the dog. Just my opinion. At least Milo is still alive until he goes crazy because they are too narrowminded.

Thanks heaps for that. Will go and look