dogdude

Glad you have got things going your way. Patience is a virtue in dog training sometimes. A method that I like involves giving the signal, and if the bum starts to go down, keep creeping into a slow motion heel until he almost comes to a slow motion stop (stand), and giving heaps of feedback to the dog. Hands under the dog can fail as often as they work in my experience. Few dogs like the experience of you hovering over them. A left handed signal is helpful to distinguish it from a stay signal too.

Like I keep saying, I am quite well aware that you can use these tools as nrms in drive training, or to quell it. I have never argued that point. In fact, I used a correction collar in the learning of her drive control when she initially refused to let go to re-start the game. After training only one dog using prey drive, I do not claim to know more than you about the subject, (and probably never will) but I do have an understanding of the basics.

Hi K9 I have never claimed that stim collars used as nrms kill drive. I highly doubt there are many top triallers in the ANKC comp that use stim collars. The "top" high scoring trainers are scarce on the ground anyway. The same old names always seem to pop up on the winners lists. (in Melb anyway) My whole point on the topic of Aversively used methods versus prey drive, was that the prey drive will be reduced as a result. At the time, I did not mention a stim collar. My experience in marking motion has worked for me, and I do not have a crouching dog. Ivan B also does it. You can still delay the reward until they complete the exercise, or use a nrm.

Erny Almost every thing 'ive mentioned about my opinions regarding pro trainers you take as a direct personal hit. I have not accused you of being anything but a little touchy. Perhaps I could have used some more tactfull responses (sorry) I do not want personal ill feeling conveyed in any way. Same goes for Cosmolo. Did not mean to imply that nobody is beyond questioning either, but I strongly believe that training a trialling dog to the upper levels of competition, and training a dog capable of a near perfect score (or pure bliss like Ptolomy) requires so many frustrating and challenging "turns of the screw" (turns that are different for every dog) and turns that do not always make sense from a pro point of thinking) that training a trialling dog is different to what you guys encounter every day.

Cosmolo Twice now I have taken this thread out of the equasion regarding wrong advice given, and i'm not sure why you keep referring to my original post (the one you clearly got all touchy about e-collars) that were not ever mentioned in the post you responded to. I quite clearly said "correction collar". Re-read your last post 5 or 6 times and you may begin to understand how some people like me may get the wrong impression? (and no.... I have no opinion on the quality of your advice, and why would you care anyway), but I am always interested in reading your (and the rest of the pro crue's) posts on most subjects.

This is my supposed "blanket statement" that you say is untrue? It was made in response to a quote that used correction collar and e-collar in the same sentence, so one could only assume that the op wanted to use it in an aversive manner.....for a relatively easy problem to fix using her already established drive training. Previous to this post, I had not even mentioned an e-collar let alone made comment on whether various levels of stim may change the validity of my post. That was dreamed up by you guys. Secondly........I never made suggestion that pro trainers should not attempt to give advice for trialling questions. What I did say was that you often question highly experienced triallers regarding subjects that you have never even trained for. These experienced triallers would never dream of chimming in on a post to do with behavioral problems, let alone disagree with something a pro has posted. Last night you questioned me about why I think "trial training is so special" (to me you clearly think that its no different to what you do) but your wrong, because it is. If it wasn't.......then every trainer who makes a living out of dogs would be out there scoring big 200s every weekend, and promoting their business at the same time. To answer your other question regarding the reason of my opinion that e-collars have no place in trial training: Simple.... Like the APBT, they have a percieved reputation, however wrongly deserved,.......and you wouldn't take a Pittbull to an ANKC ran Poodle Party. Other triallers see you using one and you will forever be defending yourself around the trial circuit, and all the B.S that will follow. I really do not want to upset any pro trainer with my last few posts, as I respect them (the ones in our forum) as genuinely nice people, but occasionally I feel some portray themselves to know everything there is to know about dogs, and that is untrue.

Congrats Mercedes, luvsablue and of course Ptolomy. A very good day for dolers by the sound of things!

Huge congrats Ptolomy! Hows the air up there ontop of cloud nine?????????

Ok.....will try my best inserting my neutral tone now...(and leaving the op's post out of the equasion) I really don't have the opinion that trial training is special by any means, but I have noticed as time goes on there are plenty of pro trainers (particulary junior ones) making comments on trial related subjects that they really know very little about, and question people who know plenty about the subject, subjects that pro trainers almost never encounter in their professions. I am not claiming to be a trialling guru of any type, but there are a number of people here that have plenty of practical experience. These same pro trainers are wonderful people (you included) in giving free advice out of the grace of your hearts and dolers are lucky to have you. Q: Why don't we see pro trainers in general on the trialling circuit? I would have thought it would be the ideal platform to showcase your skills and be closer to the dog world where people would recommend you to others with dogs with real problems? You couldn't all be busy every weekend? (No stirring intended.....just always wondered)

Erny and Cosmolo Is it possible that you guys may be getting a little too touchy on the subject of e-collars, because i'm not anti e-collar, and I never made a comment on use of levels of stim. As a matter of fact, I gave your details to my ex wife (Erny) to speak to you about using one on her staffy rescue who chases stock and does the runner in general when off lead. I do think that e-collars have no place in basic trial training, even for the use as an nrm. Not necessary. JMHO.

Erny, I think you and others have missed my point. We are talking about a really simple problem that should be easy to fix in a high drive dog.(using drive training techniques) On top of that, its for trialling purposes, and I can tell you that there would be next to zero 200 scoring trial dogs around that have check chains and stim collars slapped on them to fix such minor problems. I certainly wouldn't waste hundreds of dollars buying a stim collar to fix a minor problem in a trialling dog,.....travelling around the countryside trialling is expensive enough.

What type of training in drive do you do cosmolo? My comment was directed more towards the correction collar, but any aversive method kills drive to some extent, so I would not use it on a trialling dog when it probably isn't necessary. We are talking about getting a quicker sit for a trialling dog, not modifying a behavioral issue. Seita, if your dog needs a lead on to get a quick sit, you will probably never get a fast, enthusiastic sit without it long term (worthy of a perfect score) IMO I really think that you will find the answer in your drive training method.

I think that would be a mistake, as it would compromise your training in drive. You cannot combine the two methods. (unless you are aiming to quell very high drive) Do you have the Balabanov dvds? He talks about marking early to improve speed, and it has helped speed up other areas of my training.

Ptolomy brings up a good point regarding the NRM, but on the flip side, start to mark the mechanical action of the exercise (the motion), and also remove the auto sit from block heeling, making sure you isolate it and finsh with it. Is she fully focused during the slow sit? If worse comes to worse, go back and lure it until pattern trained.

Hi Callee I agree with Erny in that you should not expect your dog to learn much during a class. It is for you more than your dog. Also, don't get caught up trying to train at home as you do in class. Do not try to do an hours work. It will bore your dog to tears. Pick one exercise at a time and work on that in short bursts, doing a couple of minutes of learning and calling it quits. You can do this many times a day if you want, but keep it short and sweet. Use a high value reward, and if you plan to maybe trial, teach focus before anything else, starting from a stationary heel position. Move on when you dog knows the said exercise inside out. Better to concentrate on one thing at a time, and learn it well than bombarding your dog with multiple exercises. As your dog is learning new exercises, you can then always finish on a good note with a short reminder of a previously learned exercise. You will be suprised at how quickly your dog will learn this way.

I wouldn't be taking him to obedience until he at least can control himself around the item. You should not have to hide the item, and shouldn't full stop anyway. You are really better off using an item that is kept on you, and not thrown if possible. That way you have total control of it, and you can teach him that self control is what is needed to get it. You can then teach him that releasing the item is what restarts the game, and later,.....completing his work will restart the game. I advise you to tranfer the drive to an orbee on a rope or a tug. Its much more convenient than trying to throw a ball around at club too.

This is a hurdle in your own mind, and can be trained easily if you are patient and have the dog ready. Start by getting the reward off your body. Then build the endurance needed in the dogs patience till he is rewarded. Ultimately the reward comes after the trial is completed,(before the stays) and can be awaiting him outside the ring.

Sounds like a movement obsession to me, and I would try to shift the drive onto something more controlable like a tug as PF said. Encouraging an obsession about anything that is not in your immediate control is asking for trouble, and not practical.

I live on the border and have left Warringal for work related reasons. Why is everyone leaving? Its actually better than most other clubs around this area, and I have been to them all. (my opinion anyway ) I often train at the parks along Civic drive, if anyone wants to join me, I could use doggy distractions and training partners. Probably the closest club to you would be Craigieburn DOC or as mentioned Wiltja. I went down for a test run of Wiltja, and although the class sizes were a bit too big, what they were teaching was ok, although they only train to basic levels and do not teach dog sports. Warringal has a few elite level triallers there, and they are very knowledgeable people.

I start them off sitting on a corner of a wall (at the 90 degree angle) and postition yourself so that the dog is looking on one side, and you can only see the back half of him. You can be less than a metre or two away and he won'nt know it as long as you are downwind and quiet.

IMO making heeling fun is just as much about improving your base motivation, as it is in looking at how you are teaching it. Sure you have to make sure the learning is short and sweet, but working on the dogs base drive is what triggers the "fun" in the first place. Doodling and chopping and changing what you do etc is all good proofing, but that is not what is keeping the dog interested. If you have a food driven dog, then you need to look at how and when you are feeding, and if you have a prey driven dog, then look at the way you are stimulating and satisfying that. It sounds very basic,..and it is.

This is often caused by the handlers gait. Get someone to have a close look at what your legs do from head on view while in fast pace. The slightest sideways movement of your foot may be enough to put a small dog off. I strongly recommend that you teach proper focus too, as it can take a long time for the dog to learn how to balance itself in the heads up position, particulary in fast pace.

The reason I use large circles is to teach balance with focus. It will make it easier for the dog to make the transition to turns without having to break focus. Its a very important step in my method, although its different teaching a green dog the initial stages like others have said (baby steps) Have you actually taught a bullet proof focus yet? Its the very first step in teaching great heeling.

I guess if you want a robot that cant think for itself you would train with a view of not making mistakes. Pattern training can cause just as many problems as it tries to avoid IMO. When the pattern changes unexpectedly, the dog gets lost. A lead is fine, but drive is the upmost important trait that you want in trialling, and any hint of aversive methods will affect drive in negative way to an extent. NRMs are fine too, as long as you keep them as a feedback tool and not a correction, in a balanced way.

I I tend to use only slight hand movements to the point that some judges pick up on it in a negative way, but it works for me. Most of those exagerated hand signal people have a lack of focus, so they try to compensate, further pointing out a lack of focus to the judge.