dogdude

The best treat to use will be chosen by your dog. It will not always be the most convenient one to handle or carry. My dog reacts to chopped cabana or chopped fresh meat. It is messy to train with for me, but my dog will give the best reaction with it. Some react better with fruit! Dried liver can be a bit chewy, a trait you do not want while training. Treats need to be moist and almost inhalable, so that the dog can keep concentration.

Hi S&B I am no expert in drive training, but the way you have explained your method leads me to think that you are "paying" for the position required, instead of using the drive to help the dog learn. In effect, you are "paying" the dog for a slow sit or drop. A cue word, of say "yes" for example, is used to mark correct response, followed by a sepperate drive satisfaction cue like "ok" or "free". From what I understand, it is important to use both of these cues in order for the dog to learn quickly. I use both cues while using food drive to train my dog with good success. Perhaps K9 is the best person to ask though.

Well done Pix & Holly!

I tend to agree with Amhailte Also, some obsessive compulsive behaviours can be impossible to remedy as I understand it.

Hi RottenBullies Is this a dog obedience club? Or is it a training centre? If it is a club, then I would suggest that you talk to the club president. Do not take one instuctors word as gospel. If your dog does attack another, you will be the one held responsible. It is your dog, and you can do what you like (and should) concerning its managment. I suggest that you remind them of that, and also that you are a paid up member! Just remember that you will learn lots of things about dog training off lots of people. Not all of it will be good advice, so make up your own mind. Its your dog.

Hi LilBailey Because there are many small elements to getting the formal retrieve, including the final product of a full length retrieve, off lead, with distractions, your dog would ideally be at a stage where he can do that (be off lead under full control), otherwise, it will not really end up a formal retrieve. I would also be starting off with a correctly fitting dumbell, and not small articals. If anything, they will encourage mouthing. The other thing that causes mouthing is wrong use of food as reward. Anticipation of food very often starts them throwing it around in the mouth. The length of the crossbar of the dumbell should be around the same width of your dogs muzzle. The ends of the dumbell should be high enough off the ground so that your dog can comfortably get its bottom jaw under. This can be very important with some dogs in the learning stages. This is a complex exercise to teach properly, so I suggest that you learn from somebody hands on, who has trained more than one dog to do it. If you know what you are doing, it can take you little more than a week to have a good retrieve, depending on what method you choose. Teaching the basic hold even, has plenty of do's and dont's, so again, you will be better off learning hands on from an experienced trainer. P.S If you have a contact for a wood turner, you can get a dumbell made to measure. It will be a little more expensive, but much better than the crap that they sell in dog schools. Most factorys that make staircases have woodturners working in them.

What about dog high jumping? Do they do that here in Aus? I saw footage of dogs doing it in the U.S years ago. Its not something that I hear alot about.

Congrats!!! :D

Hi Jules Yes, there is a school of thought that rewards "trys", although I only tend to use them during proofing. I also ignore anticipation etc. There comes a point though when sometimes some dogs need extra help. There is nothing quite like a large bag of tricks

Leopuppy: Totally agree with, and use NRM's, but also coupled with some physical guidance combined with luring to help show them where the correct position is and also encourage them to remember it. I found with just using the NRM's I was continuing to "have to" use them when I felt that the dog knew the exercise well from time to time. This behavior is kind of what I mean. Dog does it well after NRM, but not always first time (like when you really need it during a trial) I used FR method (earpinch method) but quickly changed to NRM as soon dog fully understood the exercise (just one week!), and seem to have the best of both worlds in regards to reliability and speed coupled with it being the dogs favourite exercise. The interesting part is, that he still will not chase a ball, stick or anything unless he is working. I have been trying to encourage him to use an Orbee lately though. IMO this tells me that he enjoys doing a formal retrieve mainly because he fully understands what is required, fully understanding that there is no grey areas in achieving the reward. I know that subject has been covered extensively in other threads (Positives V Aversives) but I could'nt help myself. ;)

Good point, and the very reason I dont teach focus in that area, but I think I have already debated that subject in another thread somewhere. ;)

Ok, some interesting points to think about,............ but..... Do you guys think that the dog really understands the reason for you reaching down to place them in the correct position, after thinking that they have just done a wonderful job, without a negative cue word during the fact? It always plays on my mind that this is correcting for seemingly no reason (not one in which the dog knows anyway). Often I see crooked fronts corrected by handler, taking a step back. When you shorten the exercise down to half a step, the dog is bound to sit straight anyway IMO. If on the other hand that you raised a knee towards the ofending behind to straighten as they come in, then I feel at least this is disprupting the exercise enough for the dog to learn to avoid the knee and learn something. This type of example is why I like a mixture of the positive and aversive stuff. In the case of plain old crooked sits while heeling, they can mostly be put down for being either too far back or too far forward while in the heel position. When in the right spot it is very hard for them to be sitting crooked. ;)

Often I hear and see other trainers straighten crooked sits, drops, fronts etc after the fact (which I personally find pointless). Most instructors at dog schools teach likewise, as opposed to correcting or guiding during the act. I am forever hearing things like.......... "are you happy with that sit"? etc, and I am thinking..... "no, but its too late to worry about it now!" Many choose to straighten afterwards by moving the dog up out of position, then guiding into correct position. If you are one of those people, I am interested in your thoughts on the matter?

I cured my Staffs SFE probs very quickly by practicing over the muddiest piece of ground that I could find. When the weather was good I took a bucket with me and made my own mud. They will try to avoid the mud so make your mud close to a fence or object so there is no escape! I intend to try out the mud method for straightening up my dogs broad jump too! The good part is that he will never no when he can cut the corner from just looking from the other side. Staffs are usually very "water woosey". The important part of teaching this exercise is that next to no physical help should be used if you want your dog to be able to learn what you want without the added distractions of you hovering over him, or worse, lifting the back end rather than holding it. If you are going to guide him into a stand physically, it is ultra important to catch him dropping before you have to lift (correcting) his back end. This area is very sensistive to dogs. I like Diane Baumans "Handbag" method. Loop the lead through the handle to form a lasso around the dogs belly as close to the back legs as possible. The clip end should be reattached to the collar, and hold the lead in the middle like a handbag. Use minimal force to keep the back end up if they try to drop, and use plenty of tasty treats when they make the right choice.

Each dog should ideally have one handler and one walker (same for both). Your dogs will not see each of you with the same respect. Whoever is training and walking them should try and build a bond with that particular dog, or with both if it's just you. You will need at least a year or two attending dog school to have a trained dog, and it is also important for socialising them as they mature. Was there a reason that you stopped going?

LMSN: Who is training each dog? You and partner? Just you? Does each pup have it's own handler and walker? Not sure of a prongs legality in S.A. Should'nt need one on a pup that age anyway.

Well done Arya, and WOOHooooooooooooo for Glorybea!!!!! Excelent results!!! Oscar Update: We passed two mock novice trials in order to move up to class 6 at Northern over the last few weeks. Score from both judges was 191 so I was really happy. We have been working on open work now for months, and the extended out of sight stays have helped fix his habit of dropping in the sit stay. I think he is ready for competition now.

Tangwyn: Not really sure what you mean? As soon as the next highest title is gained, the previous one disappears. That happens at all levels.

I dont think heeling has changed much at all over the last 10 years. The main differance is that there are a lot more people training with drive methods these days. Good instructors have always taught focus first, (memory going back at least ti'll the early 1980s). It is nothing new. Leo: Training focus really has nothing to do with the dogs appearance. It is trained for a very good practical reason. Looking good is just a bonus. The UK style of heeling is not trained here because we would be penalised, but a dog that shows high drive in its work is desireable from a practical point. The rules do state that heeling should look "natural"

Well done Cosmolo!

Tollersowned: Your dog should have a good recall by this stage, after fetch command, and as soon as the dog has picked up the dumbell at distance, immediately give the "come" command. Dog should sit front. Fade out come command by using more motivation once the penny drops. Also can speed up return. Use fast, exciting voice with commands in training.

Nice recall!

Sounds like just a little test for you to see where she stands in the pack order. You are doing the right thing, remain consistent. If she refuses to eat because she is trying to avoid authority, let her go hungry and don't feed her till the following day. She will not starve herself.

Ok, here's my two bobs worth I believe that dogs that are trained properly using aversive methods don't respond out of fear once exercise is learn't, but because they have clear boundarys set in concrete, with no confusion or grey area's. If taught properly they are happy and willing workers that love spending time with their owners, and get lavish amounts of praise or other rewards. Just like the positive trained dogs, they are all individuals with different potentials, some with more than others. My first trialling dog was trained that way, was a really happy worker, who was very successful in the ring too. He was the most reliable dog that I have owned both in and out of the ring. I have never quite had the same feeling with regards to reliability since switching to more positive methods, I always feel that although the dog appears much sharper, refined and spiffy in the ring, I feel that the dog seems to have grey area's when it comes to knowing exactly who is "running the show". I am not sure if this is a good trade off when it could mean life or death in an everyday situation (incident). I do prefer the dog to have its excitement level off the richter scale while training though.

:D So they should have. They have around 15 times Australia's population of people! Lablover: Have you joined the "positive only" yahoo discussion group for dog obedience triallers? I'm sure the members on there will point you in the right direction. "Ness"???