dogdude

Kowai My Staff works about 80% better on a cold day, and the first chance I get, I am gonna start experimenting. The still warm days put Oscar to sleep, so I am going to try giving him a quick cold shower with a watering can or something, say, 5 minutes before working him and see if that changes his energy level. Hopefully it will send him nutso like after a bath. The heat seems to extinguish his food drive no matter how hungry he is. It is frustrating to see almost two completely different dogs according to weather movements! Bloody Staffords!!! :Congrats to everyone that done well at Werribee.

Hi Brooke The only reason that I would bother changing finishes would be if I had problems with a crooked sit etc. Some dogs find lining themselves up easier with the flip, some with the other way, otherwise, dont bother trying to fix something that ain't broke.

Hi Gamby Does he work better off lead, rather than on? Sometimes the lead can mean pay less attention like on a walk. Maybe give him a try straight in Novice? No matter how well they are trained, occasionally they act like someone elses dog. I was suprised last time at dog club, Oscar worked awfully, during our club comp (of course!) He had not put a foot wrong in the lead up.

I think most "poor ring performers" simply have issues with focus. Strange place and dogs, people etc. A trial is a much less formal place to be during the lead up in many ways, compared to the normal dog club routine. Most dogs with sound personalitys will adjust to the nervous handler. Many new triallers blame nerves, but experience will eventually teach them to look harder at their training methods.

..............Well done Arya, you and Tess totally deserve it for all of your perserverance. Are you entered in Northcote on cup day? If so, i'll see you there! Might go to FOO next week too.

I use food drive, but dont claim to be an expert. You need to build drive to the point of distractions slowly. Trying to work in drive from no distractions, to maximum will get you nowhere fast. Build the drive slowly, include some small distractions if the dog is still in drive (I dont mean training exercises, but drive building) raise the bar a little each time with distraction. It is important to use a marker word, as well as a release word, to keep the drive on an upwards scale. When you start to include exercises, keep them very simple and short, by breaking them down as much as you can. A dog will not stay in drive for the duration of an obedience class. The dogs learn to heel better (ie: find and maintain position) by heeling in a large circle, or a straight line, without all the stop start, turn here, turn there etc, when you start training heeling in drive. Better off using the clubs as distraction later on for your drive building, and then you can use it to slowly add distraction to your exercises. It will take an experienced trainer over a year to acheive a dog that heels properly, (competition level) so dont try to rush it, if you want to trial. Go to some seminars like K9 or Gina O' Keefe etc and you will pick up drive building techniques.

I would worry about building drive first, then intro verbal marker.

Got second place in novice section of members club comp at Northern ODC yesterday, all be it with a pathetic qualifying score thanks to a recall complete with daydream (very unlike him).

Will miss you heaps mate. My shadow gone for ever

Poodlefan: My comment was directed toward the forum, not outside of it, but interestingly, as you have pointed out, the shoe was on the other foot on this occasion, and not directed at this forum even.............amazing how many people it has outraged? Perhaps they can take the time out to think about how others may feel when they make similar comments!

Hi leopuppy04 I was not responding to your post alone, there are too many to highlight. I do think however that training a dog in either fashion will do more good than harm, and I dont go worrying about about the odd idiot that dosnt know what they are doing. Many dog clubs still train using aversive only methods, and I think it is sending out the wrong message IMO. My point is that it is always a positive trainer that manages to make negative comment on aversives almost every time. I see merit in both, and it gets a little boring hearing the same old tune all the time. These comments would offend a great many people, and they only drive people away from being involved with the forum.

There are advantages, an disadvantages to both types of training, and it pains me to here all the purely positive trainers constantly knocking aversive methods and labeling them as history. As has already been pointed out, reward training is not new, or necessarily better. Most forms of dog training are going to do society good, and I for one would not like to see this forum turn into the Yahoo obedience website with a big bold headline "Positive only trainers"

OBEDIENCE RULES I think the rules are the same Australia wide.

Yes leopuppy04, although I knew Gina's training was geared more towards the positive side, I was not aware that she was a "purely positive" guru. I still thought the seminar was great, and I certainly learn't heaps, and the seminar made me look very differently at my long term goals..... but I couldn't help feeling that the "two food game" was the answer to nearly everything. I can only dream to acheive what she has as a trainer,..........but... I don't know,........perhaps I was expecting something else.

I enjoyed it, and it gave me new goals for what level of training to work towards. She had some great methods for high drive dogs, and I learnt alot about the mechanics of training very positively. I did find the training, as a whole, a little one dimensional though, but well worth the trip, and I bought her book.

Silvawilow, Go straight up Greensborough Rd onto the Ring Rd and follow it to Geelong. Should take just over an hour to get to the ground. Its a nice easy drive from there.

How many dol trainers are headed to Geelong on the weekend?

Hi Kowai There are a few things that do before a debut trial. In the month leading up to the first trial, I try to train on a different ground each day, and even visit other clubs as a guest to try to get my dog used to working around strange dogs, the FOO nights at KCC Park are ideal, but dont start up till just after the Werribee trial. The only changes I make to the actual training in the week before the trial is to just pick the dogs weakest exercises, and do a very short but sharp practice session on the problem exercise each night up till the trial. I agree with Ness about moving towards a food target outside of the ring, and draw out the reward time to keep his enthusiasm during ringtime. There is no need to rush into his debut trial anyhow if you think that he could do much better. Oscar has been in training for about 14 months now, and even still, I think we could do better. You will at least have a home ground advantage, but if you have a non papered dog, it can take some time to get your dog listed on the VCA associate register. I have just got Oscar neutered, and are waiting on his paperwork to go through in the hope I can maybe put him in the am trial there. Entrys close in a couple of weeks (14th)

Hi Kavik Not disagreeing with you, I just do it a different way. I do find this method interesting though, maybe i'll try it out some day. Gamby: There is not much you can do to fix this while in the ring. Proof it in training and reteach it properly if necessary. It won't take you long. You could also work on luring for the right about turn (on its own), and just work on that one exercise when you train. Always plan your training and just pick one or two exercises to focus on, and break them down. ETA: There will sure to be some good heeling pointers during the Gina O'Keefe workshop. Are you going? (I see you are from Geelong)

I have always taught it the opposite of what kavik does. (Bauman method). Focus is a sepperate issue and should be delt with as such. I get the dog moving at fast pace while he is doing the right hand turn (on the outside of you) and extra slow doing the left about. This teaches the cues for the dog to move around you faster on the right turn (which is what is required to stay in correct position) and slower for the left turn. After a number of weeks using the exaggerated paces, drop back to normal and you will find your dog will stay in correct position.

Yeah, I get a hard time at dog club about being in the Open class without having trialled him yet. The other dog sports don't interest me, so not an issue. I'm going to enter Northcote trial on cup day, so that should put that problem to rest.

To answer your question PinacleDTS, I think that I just do it out of habit since crossing over using aversive methods, but I don't really see it an area that is all that important. Although it doesn't mean much to the dog in actually learning the exercise, it should help shorten the merging of voice only command with hand signal. Perhaps I am missing an important point?

I use, command - lure - marker word - release word - reward. I can't see why any dog can't be taught this way, all dogs need to eat. I still use guide and placement methods as well when I think I need them, but I think the training goal is to promote the dog to work it out. I see tons of people at dog club trying to teach a formal recall without one, and they wonder why they don't get anywhere. Alot of people say that they won't have food on them all the time etc, but they are missing the point, the long term goal in that exercise is for it to be used as a focal target, not payment.

I use them, and also agree with what most people have concerns with.............and that is using the lure for far too long, and "paying" the dog, rather than use the food to motivate it, by advancing to an external source and working towards building and converting what you have into drive. While food is a powerfull learning tool, it works both ways..............and this is where newbys can and normally do, create bad habits with their first dog. (refering more to first competition dog ie: obedience trialling etc)

Oscar's Associate register name will be Oscar Vangoska (what my 3 year old daughter calls him) BeeJay's kennel name is Delphinus Hellova Fella (B.T)