Australdi

I'm wondering if the size of the dog might have anything to do with it ....I had no probs with it with my dobe....are there any statistics about which breeds are having the problems? Aus

ummm...Sunny you've been very quiet...how's the couch training going???? :rolleyes: hehehehe :D Aus

Zillah has this drive too...his kills include 3 chew toys (the twisted rope kind)...he undoes the knot at one end, untwists the threads then shakes bits of string all through the house, continually! bashes himself in the head with the knot if he picks up the wrong end! :rolleyes: but can keep himself amused "killing " the chew toy for hours!...well at least 10 minutes heheheh..yeah I' a tad prone to exageration! :D Aus

ok...I know I'm biased!!! :rolleyes: but I have good authority to back it up! ....I once asked one of the victorian dog squad handlers why they didn't take dobermanns?....his reply....they're TOO intelligent! GSD's are perfect because they're stupid enough to follow orders without assesing the situation first...whereas a dobe would turn to the handler & say "you've got to be kidding!" :D so I'd be pushing dobe's up the list to at least in front of GSDs!!! BTW...I'm wearing a flameproof suit! na na nana nah! :D ;) ;) Aus

Zillah was wearing one of those type of collars when he was at the RSPCA....and he pulled like a freight train....It was the first time I had seen one, and it didn't seem to be very effective on him however one session (Ie: 2 commands with the check chain & he walks at heel on loose lead...) mind you, he's still not fully distraction trained, so I'm not expecting him to remember it when we get in our first doggie group session :D a martinggale on a horse is a combination of check apparatus, which basically pulls the horses head down & in (so they can't see properly!) & also applies an eccsessive force through the bit, which hurts their mouths. & IMHO are down right cruel in the wrong hands! Aus

yes! that is the sort of thing I do! Zillah watched it with me & got quite excited & wanted to join in when he recognised the game! The only thing I do differently, is that I don't play the tug of war game....I'm still teaching Zillah the release command, so won't let him tug against me until he's got that down pat (& at the moment, I don't want to encourage the "bite") he was a bit quick for me last week & scored a "kill" on the ball and the rope attached (cheeky boy!)...so I am using other tools until I have the money to buy another one (and when we've got the off lead recall consolidated) ..I let him have it (the ball) because I wasn't going to get into the chasey game with him, didn't want to encourage the fun of running away from me before he gets the comming to me with a good heel & great pats! :D With Daims (which was a long time ago when we did basic training) I didn't use a ball at all....only verbal & touch rewards. he could recall by hand signals across a football oval, but his heel would always include a circle before he'd come into line..(he's little addition to the game) , because I wasn't competing with him, I didn't correct this out of him...after all, he still heeled! & it was more like play than training The check chain is only used with a very quick jerk release when the dog trys the "I can't hear you" game & correct behaviour is then reinforced by placement. I'm not familiar with a martingale for dogs...but I will NOT use one on horses, because it's simply not necessary if you have good hands & good aids. Plus I've seen them abused too often! ....I can see that the same could be said for check chains but if they are used correctly they will not do damage, but can be useful when the dog is in the dominance challenging phases, or in the very intitial phases of distraction training. but that is just my experience...I'm not saying it's for everyone, or that there aren't other ways to do it BTW...they were great clips! Zillah loved them too! Aus

especially Dobermanns!!!!! I have had an ongoing argument with my father that Dobermanns ARE NOT outdoor dogs!!!! they are a member of the family & if he wants my dog to sleep outside...then he should too! It also took me a long time to train my father out of starting marking wars with Daims ...it was hilarious to watch!...Daims would mark...then dad would spray it with some strong scent...so daims would go back & mark it again...several times for good measure! :D years later...Dad finally worked out that if he went & pee'd on one particular spot...then that was where Daims would pee! woohoo! finally my father had been trained! Flames dad...I couldn't survive a day without a dobe cuddle! P.S. flame looks so much like Daims did when he was young! cheers Aus

Thanks Am ...I suppose where I'm making things confusing...is that I probably do use prey drive in training my dogs (It's just that due to so many years in the security industry and owning a highly trained dobermann, meant that I had to re-train myself in the terminology I used to explain it, otherwise, I could have landed my self in hot water with council rangers etc...I must stress that I don't use khoeler method now..although I do use a light check chain when in training mode...& yes, I do know how to use it correctly The majority of my training is done in dog language & visual with a strong reward base & a hell of alot of love & companionship! maybe this makes it a bit clearer...when I say I am trying to de-activate the prey drive, what I'm probably describing in the terms used here is that I am placing the control of that prey drive to my control, rather than the dog's decision.... as I understand it....Daim's had a high threshold for defence/avoidance, as it took alot to provoke him to take the defencive stance, he would only take this stance if the threat was real & immanent. He would also call off with one word or hand signal from me & return to a quiet heel sit. (unless I was being personally attacked)..even in this situation, he would use the least force required & would call off as soon as the job was done. mind you, if he thought that someone/something was behahaving with bad manners, he would tolerate, warn & then correct. He was very patient with pups & kids (totally trustworthy with kids..wouldn't even warn them, just try to remove himself from the annoyance), but would not put up with older dogs or humans who repeatedly ignored his advice hope I'm starting to make more sense...I'm just trying to undo years of being very careful what words I used in certain situations cheers Aus

I agree! :D ;) ;) don't you just love the way they daintily pick up thier feet when they encounter water on the ground!!! like they'd melt if they left their feet there longer than a second! ..and the look of horror on their face just cracks me up! Aus

Sorry...maybe I haven't communicated effectively, I was told that if at any stage I trained my dogs to the level of bite/restrain, they would be instantly declared...even if I didn't train him to this level, but worked in security, he would also be instantly declared....maybe the rules are different in NSW...but this was the situation in Vic at the time. Daim's actually was a dog I had full control over...he could be trusted with children...but in certain situations was able to do what was necessary to protect both of us...please understand...I can't say any more than that ;) if I did...I would probably get myself into trouble! daim's was a companion dog, he was obedience trained. that's all I can say. K9...I would love to do one of your training days...but finances at the moment don't permit it...if you ever come down to tasssie, please let me know & I would love to participate, cause I subscribe to the philosophy that you never stop learning ..I suppose what I'm trying to hedge around is that like your dogs..Daim's was a manstopper...but like you he was fully under my control...unfortunately under Victorian law...if you actually work your dog in this capacity, or admit that he is trained to this level...he is instantly declared a dangerous dog & comes under all the applicable by-laws (I suppose because he's dead now, it really doesn't matter what I say anymore) (but I was trying not to say it all the same) I can definately, categorically state, he was not fear motivated..if he was, I would have had alot of problems resulting from some of the situations we found ourselves in ;) I actually trained him in a similar way I trained my personell...assess & use the least force required.....I have found my knowledge in dog/horse training to be just as applicable in human training (believe it or not ) I get the feeling that I'm not describing things lucidly enough (because I'm trying to hedge around legal implications) that you get the feeling we are on a different page...I actually don't think our ideas are that far apart....just that I have a different terminology and way of expressing it, because I have had to (deliberately) train myself not to express it as you do, as I was under constant scrutiny because of my employment & the breed of dog I owned. ...but I'm really learning alot from this conversation, so I hope that we can continue to clarify it all! cheers Di

Good point!!!! Aus ...um does anyone else get the feeling that this thread has gone ;) & become a dobe thread in general? ...you know..we're as ADD as our dogs! ;)

I think we've all been in that situation at some time or another if we're really honest! The beautiful thing about Dobermanns...if they sense you're a bit nervous & hesitant....they'll play it for all it's worth!!! so you go from not just being nervous...but to having this dog that usually performs everything to perfection...then when everyone is watching just runs amok! ;) nothing like making you feel a celebrity....for all the wrong reasons! when I first started going to club with Daims...I was in an abusive relationship..& the OH would always stack on a turn, just prior to me leaving..so I'd arrive at dog training with fragile self confidence right from the get go!....Daim's being a typical adolescent Dobe would sense this & pretend that he knew nothing!!!! (which was far from the truth!) (give a dobe an inch..and it will take a mile!) my worst day was when I had had a particularily distressing morning...arrived at the club & a new boxer was in our class...now for some reason, this boxer decided he didn't like Daims....& kept having a go at him...I kept trying to drop out of the circle & keep Daims as far away asa possible from this dog, but the handler keeped seeming to overtake until his dog was level with Daims. Eventually.....Daims got sick of the constant ;) and as the boxer went to bite the next time around, Daims jumped over him in a split second & had him by the throat! By this time I was in tears!!!! (OMG!! my dog just attacked another dog!) The only thing that saved me, was that the instructor had been watching the whole thing!....He took me aside, comforted me, said I had been doing everything right, showed me a technique to use in extreme cases..then kicked the boxer's handler out of the class because he had been deliberately not controlling his dog & despite my evasive action had continually put his dog set to mine! I actually felt much better after that! My next demoralisation came in the testing ring....we trained & trained...we had it down pat..but on the day...guess what! Daim's played the I know nothing game again!!!!! waaahhhh!!!!! the only thing he got right was the drop stay...which was the quickest I've ever seen him do it! ....it wasn't until after we had failed the test that the tester commented..."I'm not suprised he failed it, the last dog through here was a bitch in heat...no wonder he got such a good drop!" (Daim's was an entire) so now he tells me!!...I still felt demoralised though, and must admit, I stopped going to club & began training on my own....the positive thing was that...I ended up with a very well trained dog, who was reliable and tractable in every situation, and I was always proud when people would comment on his behaviour.....because I could honestly say, I did it myself I suppose the ultimate point I'm trying to make....is that training is not to recieve some certificate etc...it's getting the dog that you want, who will do what you want when you want it, and it doesn't matter how you achieve that so long as it is done humanely. A dog can have all the papers...but not be able to act the real thing in everyday life.....the piece of paper means nothing...it's the dog & it's behaviour at the end of it all that counts...and most of all...a happy dog is one that will want to please you cheers Aus

actually, I think K9 & I do have the same philosophies...it's just that we're working for different outcomes...he's training dogs as personal protection...whereas I am trying to subdue that natural instinct in my dogs so that they can be trusted in a family/public environment, without being declared! ...any dog which is trained to the level that K9 does is instantly classified in the declared category, which is why I chose not to go down that road with Daims...he was just too much of a sweetie for him to be unable to be run off lead or socialise with the community! + the $4k + that it would have cost to build a council approved dog run!!!! all because he got paid to do what came naturally for him!....I have to stress, I NEVER worked him (although I did train & work my horse ) but daim's & I flew under the radar a couple of times :D ;) check the other thread we've been wetting ourselves over for Daim's lines...& if you really want his full pedigree...I'm happy to PM them to you! & Zillah's if you want..I'd be interested to know more about it as he's from the Aust/US lines that I'm not so familiar with..Daims was Euro lines. ;) Aus

ok...Daims/Damon, (joelfield mikko) 15/11/95 - 22/8/06 Entire. Two exclusives in his line...Fosc de los valientes (imp spn) (maternal grandfather) & CH Ebo V/D Groote maat (maternal grandsire) you can see a piccie of him in (mark ladd's dobermanns owners companion pp : 60 !) ;) ...must admit..it's really cool to find a photo of one of your "pups" ancestors in a breed book! hehehe he was Aust Ch at scamming pats & cuddles off anyone!!!! ;) ...and doona hogging! Zillah (Midnitemyth Harley) 25/04/05 - ..... red & tan (no photos available yet) de-sexed (RSPCA adopt) master at being irrepresible! so far! & you're right Hiex...Daim's was one in a million! but Zillah's a real character too! Di

K9 thanks for those articles...now we can converse in the same language! :Dked Daims (RIP) had a high threshold for both defense & prey...because I worked in security, I activley trained against the prey drive which was already there. ( I was continually checked to see if I was "working" my dog) he was never a fear agressive (although he could be vocal if he wasn't impressed with something)...rather he would stand, asscess & detain...I can't say too much more, but I actively trained away from the bite. However, even though I could call him off practically everything...I could not call him off when I was being attacked. that is until the threat retreated. he would bail strangers up if they were trespassing & I was not in attendance, but again I could call him off as soon as I arrived. He was not trained to attack....quite the opposite, I actively de-activated that drive in him. which meant I could trust him both within my supervision & out of it to be a "safe" dog (as safe as could be as long as no-one did anything incredibly stupid!) and even then he had a very high tolerance unless I signalled otherwise. (probably said too much there!) He would have made a fabulous working dog, however when I assessed the costs involved, and at the time a man & dog could only command about $45 ph...it just didn't add up (I was already on $23ph as a supervisor!) Zillah has a very strong prey drive (he was surrendered to the RSPCA because he was chasing sheep) again, this is something that I am training to de-activate in him. He also has shown a very high threshold for fear & I haven't seen him baulk at anything yet! in his current state...he's really a liability, as he's had no discipline! , however, he is learning fast & responding well to my commands so I have no doubt that given the time, I can train him into a dependable & reliable dog. Of course my job is just that "little" bit harder because he has already picked up alot of undesirable habits for a companion dog and was 15mts old before I was able to start working with him....quite a challenge! The only way I believe I will be able to succesfully curb his prey drive is by strong alpha leadership ...I'm not saying I want to take it out of him....that's not likely to be possible...but I can get him to the point when he will be able to be controlled in his responses & that's what I'm aiming for. ...but hey...he's still an adolescent...& still requires alot of foundational training that he has missed out on...so I'm not expecting miracles overnight! ;) cheers Di I think we actually have the same sort of philosophies on dog training...just that we are working in different areas...wheras you are looking to harness these natural instincts (due to the nature of the required outcome, I am trying to de-activate them for a different outcome) I also know that Daims came from a strong bloodline of working dogs...so he had alot of genetic disposition in the first place I haven't researched Zillah's bloodlines yet & so I cant comment on them except to say that he haas a number of Ch's in his line...which in terms of temperment...means nothing. ;) Aus

;) sorry I wasn't trying to say that you were saying the 1st one had a UTI (sorry about dyslexic typo before), just clarifying that mine didn't it was tottaly behavioural...and yes, he's the only one of my dogs I've seen run..when he was chased by a cow of all things! Actually...I tell a lie...one of my friend's thoroughbred colt snuck up on Daim's one time when he was drinking from the bath in the paddock...now this was one sly & cheeky colt...with a wicked sense of humour...(and Daim's had been giving him a bit of a hard time about an hour before....anyway...we all watched this colt tippy toe up behind daims...who somehow didn't sense a thing (some horses can do this...colts in particular!) reach his neck out & snort right up daim's bum! ;) poor dog got such a fright he jumped 2 metres in the air! then turned around and started barking away like a grumpy old man! ...at which Visa put his head down, stamped his foot & ran straight at Daims! seeing as Daims had already some months back copped a bitchy kick from my snotty arab, he made a beeline trough the fence where he could protest at a safe distance! we were all sitting in the jumps paddock rolling around in the grass & trying not to wet ourselves at the sight! ;) ...suppose you just had to be there! he had good nerves...but he wasn't stupid or agressive either yeah both PB dobes have a very strong protective drive....and both perform routine property checks (or boundary runs as I call them) The younger one unfortunately didn't come to me until 4 weeks ago...so he's gone a long time with no discipline...which is probably why he shows less assesment skills and more agressive skills....but I do believe that can be manipulated through good training. Aus ....and yeah...I reckon the edition I worked of was a 1974 re-print! hahaha...any wonder I don't train like that anymore! I have since done training through the dobbermann & others club in Vic...so I'm not as antiquated as I sound! :D

just to clear that first one up...it wasn't a UIT...it was definately behavioural & took me 3 months to get him out of it on a regular basis & 2 years to finally eridaicate in any situation. & yes, I agree...I believe he had been abused before I got him. perhaps we are working with different definitions & this is where the confusion is comming in. I was originally trained in khoeler method (which I no longer use) but probably am still influenced by their definitions of drive & nerves. All my dogs ended up with confident and steadfast personalities no matter what the situation, whether it was a new one or not. my middle dobe (never abused) wouldn't even baulk at a child running out of a crowd waving a "light sabre" at him. practically ignored it..but was always on the alert for Real threats. If he assessed a threat as real, he would place himself in front of me( protective stance, leaning forward, head raised) & stand rock still, & give a warning growl if the threat didn't retreat. I class this as good nerves. However, I could call him off at any time The new dobe is slightly more agressive & doesn't back off quick enough yet, but then I've only had him 4 weeks...he is beginning to respond to the stand down /leave it commands. ...again, I sense he has quite good nerves. am I completely off track? cheers Aus

oh & they can milk that one for at least 1/2 hr....the occasional shiver, only when you're looking of course! ;) Aus

:D ;) BTW...that first pic is soooooo cute!!!!! but why does that second pic remind me of Daim's and the bean bags????? I knew I'd been clubbing hard all night when I stumbled in at 9am...but I couldn't work out why it had snowed inside!!! It made a great xmas shot when I posed him in the middle of it all with a santa hat on! also...while we're on the topic of sooks....I've another visual for you all. Daim's first trip to the vet when we moved to tassie....was fine (sit stay & on best behaviour..very impressive!) until it was time to enter the exam room. ;) ....bum down, legs splayed...vet nurse pushing from behind...me dragging from the front, dog sliding & looking like he was goining to the slaughterhouse! In the room...head hanging...stump trying to dissapear up bum...vet standing there.... me: "Hi meet Daim's, my big viscious guard dog!" vet " I see...typical sookie dobermann!" ;) I instantly trusted this vet because I knew he knew the breed well! Aus

Remember people;...we're discussing our "big viscious guard dogs" here! ;) ;)

;) hehehehhee I'm having a visual! ...why are dobermanns so hard to say no too??? That sook is harder to resist than puss in boots in shrek2!!!...I just though of something that worked with daims.....he was a heater hog (as well as a doona hog) ...if fact he was just a woos about getting cold/wet ("oh no...I can't go out for a pee mum....it's drizzling out there!!! ;) ) anyway...I laid a fluffy rug on the floor and another fluffy rug in front of the heater...you can guess which one he picked at night! the large one in front of the window was for catching rays on sunny days :D ...trust me...go the fluffy rug!!!!!!!!!! ;) Aus

just so long as you promise not to laugh at the girl struggling with an over excited deliquent dobermann!!! ;) I'm guessing it will be his first big doggie outing...so I'm gonna be in for a real treat ;) NOT! mind you, which weekend is it? maybe we'll have laid down some more maturity by then! ...... as if! ;) :D Aus P.s. I'm in Lonnie.

I'm so glad someone said this! Like dobermanns, they might be "fully grown" (but not filled out) by 12 mths...but they have puppy brains for ALOT longer!!! some can take up to the age of 4 to act mature! ;) although you usually see them begin to "get a brain" by about 2yrs onwards... think 16yr old teenagers...and you get the idea! ;) but they're so adorable...you forgive them anyway! Aus

I always made sure my pups were housetrained before they were released at 8 weeks (they were trained by 6 weeks!) Na nana na na x 2! ;) mind you catching 5 pups when they start sniffin....you feel like a bloody yo-yo, because none of them need to go at the same time! ARRGH! Aus BTW Zillah (my 15mth old rescue) was supposedly not house trained when I got him...but after the first day Daim's my old dog taught him how to ask to go out & what to do...and he was technically trained within a day! gotta love that!

I've always fed my dogs morning & night..smaller feeds in evening....havent had any probs so far....the occasional accident if I sleep in (past 9.30) & when my old dog first moved to tassie, we had a couple of accidents because he didn't have the same control over his bowels or bladder & his routine was a bit disrupted....he'd get quite distressed when this happened (which would usually be if he got a bit excited) so he'd run around the room spraying drops everywhere! ;) so I simply brought nite feed forward a bit, then took water away at about 8pm...& always took him out for a pee just before I went to bed at 11pm...even if I had to wake him up to do it! we also designated a special "pee bush" right outside the front door, so he could go quickly & run back into the warm house. If we were expecting other dogs over...I would make sure that he was outside when they arrived, so that he could pee as much as he liked in greeting & marking wars! ;) Aus