Australdi

oh! & BTW Sunny.... I was just about to tease you with Zillah's almost "instant" conversion to dog bed rather than the couch! .....after "Diesel" (rotti x lab) came to stay on an access visit...Zillah decided that he would sleep on Diesel's bed!...woohoo! until...last evening, when I was distracted by the computer, only to suddenly hear the ripping of fabric!....you guessed it, Zillah had decided that diesel's mat was the perfect chew toy & began to di-assemble it in enthusiastic abandon!!! now somehow, I have to glue varing pieces of foam together & stitch up the rips in the covering....and make huge apologies & offer recompense for the destruction of someone else's dog mat! awww god! don't ya just love teenage dobes!!!! ;) & guess what..he's reverted back to the couch! :D :D :D Aus

Sunny ;) I only continue posting because of my faith in my dogs!...in the human world...I am the only one who can give them a voice! some may accuse me of antromorphising....but I can honestly state, that if it wasn't for daim's; I wouldn't be here!...he supported me through the hardest times of my life....and Zillah is carrying on in his tradition! dogs to me are not possesions, nor are they tools...they are personalities and entities in their own right, and have so much to offer us a a human race being responsible for a dog is just like being responsible for a child....and the rewards at the end are just as apt! :D however, I do appreciate that dogs are not "human" (no matter how much dobe's think they are! ) & so therefore, I try to learn their language as much as I try to teach them mine :D & somehow...we meet in the middle & establish a working relationship which is based on trust; caring & respect...is that something I should be villified for? excuse my arrogance..but I think not! I end up with dogs that observe human behavioural constraints, but also are free to be dogs when they require it....and I respect that! It hurts when people make assumptions about myself & my dogs simply because I employ a different strategy to them...I say each to their own..what ever works for you...except I am offering a different perspective & approach...which has worked for me...and as a result I feel that I have been judged unfairly. I'm not trying to tell anyone HOW to do things...just offering my own experiences in alternative ways of doing things.....so why does that single me out as a pariah...or more bluntly a "troll" and I do question...that is my way of learning!....& my mind is always open! Aus

all really good words of wisdom!!! from my own experience of trying to train a litter at 3 weeks of age (just after they were up & running about) the secret is to recognise the "i'm about to pee/poo" routine...it is subtle, but includes sniffing, circling and getting ready to squat!...then you've got to be quick...grab the pup, carry it to the toilet area & praise like hell when it gets it right! if you don't get there in time....never mind, just clean it up & try to pick up the signals quicker next time I felt like a pogo stick for the first week as I had 5 pups to train & they all wanted to go at different times....I'd just get one, then the next would need to go....patience & observation is the key....don't give up, because if you're consistant, they'll let you know within a week or so! good luck! Aus

I missed the signal this morning....thought Zillah just wanted to be sooky & wake me up for the hell of it...should have known better! poor thing...he had a solid accident & then (I suspect from the nerves) had a really sloppy one! "sigh" ...can't blame anyone but myself....will teach me not to sleep in..poor thing, he did try to ask nicely! Aus

The question I have (Im not having a go, jsut want to clarify) was it a recall from a sit stay you walk away than call or wasit from Ill chase a cat and when I almost catch it Mum calls and I leave the cat and return? actually..he'd actually be on full release mode..play time! :D ..all I'd have to do was call his name or whistle (to catch his attention,) put my arms up & he'd come a'runnin! :D ..and I could also call him off if he decided to chase something when he was in release mode...with one exception ;) ..possums! he wouldn't come back until he'd chased them up a tree! (he had "issues" with possums...we had ALOT of them around in the area & they used to take great delight in sitting in a tree above him & pissing on him! ;) ) Aus We all did, still do, check out the recall subject in the general secion or the ecollar subject. ...... Im happy to hear your experiences and compare them to mine, so keep them coming. If we dotn like what you say we will just crucify you thats all ;) Thanks Myz ....I was beginning to feel like a member of the bin laden family at a liberal party conference ......I usually have a pretty tough skin, & say what I think & stand up for it..but I think I'm just a little bit more fragile than normal since losing Daims ...BTW...I got his ashes back on Thursday.....so I'm probably really touchy & sooky in a typical dobe way at the moment ;) Aus edit: yeah, you're right...this quoting stuff is weird!...aww stuff it...can't be bothered trying to fix it...sure you can all work it out! :D

well this is what I do....and have the same result...without correction & breaking...like I said before..I can even walk out of the room & he won't eat until given the release...but he certainly appears to remain in prey drive, as the drool & looking at the bowl don't stop until I return , he'll give me a quick eye contact (as if to ask please?) and then he gets the release.so if you describe that as ALPHA status...then ....perhaps my dog also sees me as ALPHA? ;) I also don't seem to have the problems that K9 said I would have if I trained the way I do....Daim's would recall with hand signals over a football field, so the 30 metre example he gave that would result in my dog not responding, simply wasn't true. I'm not saying that I don't harness prey drive...I do incorporate alot of it, but I also employ pack drive, and talk to my dogs the way their dam would have. Dam's do use growls as corrections to train their pups, as do dogs in a pack situation...and a correction can be a subtle as a look or a showing of teeth ...corrections are only used in the initial training phases to establish pack leadership....then rewards for desired behaviour become the real focus...although they are also used right from the start! I actually didn't have to teach Zillah the sit stay for food....Daim's taught him that by example...& zillah worked it out straight away (never seen that before!!! blew me away!) I'm just feeling that each time I share my experiences....I'm jumped on, and have the suggestion thrown at me that my dogs will not respond in the future...well Daim's was almost 11 years old when he died, & I had no problems...so I'm not sure when those future problems were meant to begin? Seeing as the average life span for dobe's is about 9 yrs (although I have met one that was 15!!!!!) I don't know...maybe he's giving God a real hard time at the moment! Aus

Hi M-J whenI say control...I'm simply saying that I havent given a release to eat....and I don't think his prey drive is diminishing if you go by the saturated carpet! I can walk out of the room, do whatever & he wont touch it until I say "ok" & hey, that's how I want it! I seem to be copping a caning here, just because I employ a variety of methods to train my dogs....I'm not saying that other's methods are inferior or anything, just saying that I use slightly different methods & get a great result too. The weird thing is, that much of what I do incorporates what others reccomend, but I also do some other things...which seems to draw condemnation, l feel like I'm being told there is only one right way....but I thought it was the end result that was the important thing (as long as no cruelty is involved to get it) and I do get the results...so why am I being slammed? the only reason I employed the (female alpha technique) as taught to me by a bitch correcting her pups...was because the younger dog was challenging my older dog...& I needed the younger dog to listen to me quickly before a trip to the vets was necessary! one challenge like this & the dog gets it straight away...it's his language of course....& it works...what can I say...it works, first time. Dogs do challenge older dogs for pack status if they think they can get away with it....as soon as they are secure of their place in the pack...they're fine....sorry, but I tend to speak animal language better than I do human sometimes....maybe that's why I don't come across clearly sometimes... anyway...if there's only one right way on this board...then I just stick out of any further conversations...that seems to be the simplest way to avoid a stoning :p cheers Aus

that's great to hear Australdi, just curious about where this statement made by you fits in with that philosophy: really simple...I leased a collar from the council, because my dog was being accused of excesive barking....as a "responsible " citizen, I employed the collar. Within 2 weks it failed, and in the interim, I had a very unhappy & nervous dobermann (not pleasant to witness) I immediately returned the collar & tried other methods (which required more effort from me :D) result achieved! Note that I'm not trying to say that e-ollars are not suitable for all situations, (although, I do want to highlight that they can malfunction!) but through my own experience, I'm trying to highlight that it is us as handlers that are failing the dogs by resorting to the often touted "quick & easy solution"....all I'm doing is saying that in my experience, it was my own lack of training methods that lead me to seek an easier option...and that with hindsight & further training, I would never go down that path again :D! All this is, is a case study...an individuals account of what they experienced, and the insights they gained...take it or leave it as you will cheers Aus

as theynsay...the proof is in the pudding!!!! If you have a dog that has high energy, good immune system, glossy coat & good weight....what srgument is there!???? I have my personal beliefs & choices...but I have also seen dogs that are fed diffferent diets that compare to my own.....so who am I to judge! as long as the dog is healthy.....I'm happy!! & what someone spends to achieve that...well, that's their issue! hahahhaa Aus

And why damn an excellent tool for many because a single persons experience with one that was malfunctioning, used on one dog only was not to their satisfaction? because that would be silly edited for schpellink haven sorry, I probably haven't expressed myself correctly...I'm NOT damning them...just pointing out that it was own laziness & lack of concentrated training that diserved my dog. and let me stress MY DOG....I'm not trying to say that every dog is the same & that one technique will work for all :D ...I'm just trying to admit my own faults :D all I want to see is dogs that are accepted as equals in society...and we as owners have a big part to play in that :D cheers Aus

Myszka :D I informed the breeders yesterday of joelfield mikkos' demise...seems he was the last of his line & even out lived some of his nieces & nephews :D he was actually part of the first litter that the breeders produced, and they went with the philosophy of going back to the direct lines.....I'm only guessing, but I suspect he was the last(surviving) to have fosch & groote maat in his direct (3rd) decendancy.... it's just a shame that he never had the opportunity to sire he was of pure euro bloodlines & displayed all the standard characteristics that you could want from impressive bloodlines like that....with the addition of one of the finest temperments I have ever seen in an "entire" dog. It's not only my loss of my faithful partner that I mourn...but also the dobe breeding genetics, which has missed the opportunity of continuing fine breeding....and what a great loss that is :D seeing the photos of Flame....I wish I had of had the chance to introduce the two of them....I suspect that the resulting litter would have taken out any show they were entered in :D...but such is life.....so many opportunities are missed all I can say is that throughout his life..he did his breed proud, and changed many peoples ideas about dobermanns in general! He was a credit to the breed as a whole Aus

I know dobe's are intelligent....but IMHO....let them have free reign...and a ball and a human doesn't seem that much different but just to contradict myself (as you will eventually learn is a part of my psyche....) Daim's could make that distinction...he could tell whether the threat needed to a) be ignored b) be played with) c) stirred up) or D) taken down. he really was the ultimate dobe...as he was both companion & trustworthy, but also indomitable in the face of true threat! without saying too much..he was trained higher than the average companion dog ....and yet, this was his primary role, which he fullfilled par excellance :D ...even though I used a combination of training methods with him...the one constant was pack leadership...I was always his alpha...even when he tried to challenge me :D and although I am incorporating K9's methods into my training for Zillah....I am still maintaining "alpha" as my primary training tool. & it's working quicker on Zillah than it did on daims!....I'm speculating that is because zillah is de-sexed :D] to be honest..there are only very small differences in the way I train my dogs to the way K9 trains them :D...the exceptions being, that I don't use tie backs...my dogs tie up fine...& just having the food in front of them & my control is enough to keep them in drive. & my alpha status, I achieve the same way a dog would....I lay them down & growl and bite the scruff if necesssary.....then hold them in a drop stay, for however long it takes It only takes me one challenge..(which I have to win of course) and they then look to me as alpha & this is reinforced by feeding regimes, reward allocation & effective growls when behaviour oversteps the mark acceptable. I can't express how effective this method has been for me & can only say that it results in such quick results that the dog's reaction blows you away! ...& yet it does nothing to decrease his drive, nor does it result in a dog that is unsure in it's confidence In fact, you end up with a dog that is very sure of himself, highly tolerant to provocation, but ready & willing to protect when it is absolutley nescessary! ...and that is exactly what I want from my dogs like I said...I'm wearing a flame proof suit & am happy for anyone to take me to task over my training methods....but the proof of their effectiveness was in Daims....a dog I could trust implicetly, but always knew he would protect me if there was not other choice :D...I'm not a dogmatic person (no pun intended) & am open to any ideas & theories which enhance the training & wellbeing of dogs ;) ....I'm just sharing my own experience ;) Aus

no....but I had success within 3 weeks of traditional training...not exactly that hard! :D ...and I will be the first to admit that it was my LAZINESS and my immersment in the corporate world, that made me neglect my dog's actual behaviour & needs thank St Patrick that I learn't from my youthful mistakes :D Aus

Kavik I understand what you are saying...but I'm working with dobermanns...they have an inbred stong prey drive....very strong both my pure breds were/are being trained as companion dogs first...however, their guarding instinct is so imprinted that it is not something you can train out of them....only hope to contol :D ..So what I'm trying to get at is that I am working from the opposite direction...most people want to increase prey drive in their dogs....but when you're dealing with a working dobermann...this is not something you want to encourage...it's already there in abundance :D ...the secret is harnessing this drive via pack leadership, so that you control those drives and therefore create a dog which is trustworthy in any situation :D...and will ultimately look to you for it's direction :D.....otherwise, you have a liability on your hands They are highly trainable....but require very strong alpha leadership to control their imprinted temperment....this is a dog that if it senses a weakness...will make decisions for itself! my experience could be different to other dobe owners...however both pure bred dobe's that I have owned have had extremely strong prey drives, which due to current legislation, I have had to actively curb in my dogs cheers Aus

Having had experience of a council issued citronella collar...and seeing it resultant malfunction....I'm personally opposed to e-collars! when Daim's was an adolecent, he went through a barking stage...mind you this was exacerbatted by a new yappy dog next door, contant harrasment from neighbours and my immaturity & work commitments at the time....after seeing the effect of the collar going off for the slightestnoise he made (even a low growl) I threw it back at the council & gave then a piece of my mind...especially since my dog was being blamed for another dog's barking! (my dog was "recorded" barking when he was over 20kms away at dog traINING!!!!) I instituted a regime of positive training for non-barking at non-threats & the problem was resolved within weeks!....my dog became one that would not bark unless provoked, or a threat present..and each bark had it's different timbre....so I could tell what the actual trigger was...this was far more effective than any collar! ...and as an added benefit, i could distinguish between an actual threat to simple aggravation...Non-threatening alerts were responded to by "thank you" but "stand down"...real threat barks were investigated with actual investigative resposnse & praise for "good boy"!....result was a dog that barked, only when a threat was either undetermined or real...exactly what I wanted! Even though I've been guilty of being persuaded to using collars as a training method..in my own humble experience...they are a poor & lazy substitute for "real" training! ..just adding my 2 cents worth Aus

ticks aren't actually a problem in Victoria thank goodness! Aus

Flame's dad..I would be interested in comparing bloodlines....they do look really similar! obviously Flame is from the european lines...wedge short muzzle & finer & more solid stature. I'm happy to trade pedigrees if you're interested! Daim's was actually so healthy, that I trully expected him to get to 13 or 14 yrs...however a bone, just the wrong size & shape had other ideas!....he actually got through the op to relieve the bloat which is an achievement in any dog, let alone one that was 10 1/2 yrs old!...unfortunately, he was under anaesthetic just that little bit too long, and never pulled out of it ..but he held on for over 24 hrs until I had a chance to tell him how much I loved him! :D most people mistook him for a pup his condition was so good...I'd have to point out his grey hairs around his muzzle to confirm that he was actually in his 70's!!!! I put his condition down to lots of love....and the best food money could buy...he was raised on Euky for the first 6 years, then I switched to Natural Balance, which I honestly cannot recommend high enough! both for it's nutrient content & it's price! Daim's is evidence of how good this food was! :D.....he was honestly the best male companion I have ever had the priveledge of spending time with (if only humans were more like dogs!) and if you didn't notice..he was entire...but NEVER was this a problem...he was the PERFECT gentleman! :D I can't express how much I miss him...but Zillah is helping me through it, just as a good dobe will always do! ...I couldn't contemplate owning/being owned by another breed! Di

WOOHOO!!!!! I have just read all 27 pages of this thread! (come on someone...give me an award! ) K9.....my issue doesn't seem to be covered as yet, although at times it's been alluded to :D my first Dobe (PB) Daim's was highly prey driven, however I trained him out of that through pack drive...and ended up with a very reliable, trustworthy, but fearsome dog when he really had to be....he was exactlly the type of dog I wanted, I'm the sort of person who is wiling to experiment though, so this time with Zillah (16 mth old PB dobe rescue dog) I'm giving your training methods a go... my big question is...both Daim's and zillah show very high prey drive (probably due to their breeding ) as both dogs are/were primarily being trained as companion dogs....I do not want to encourage the natural guarding instinct beyond property and personal protection. I achieved this with Daims, however, Zillah is showing an even stronger prey drive...and he's a very quick learner :D ...the downside is, I am not yet confident to let him out in an off lead situation outside the backyard due to his high prey drive. (I've only had him for 5 weeks) I actively train my dogs in pack drive & I am alpha!...this seems to achieve good results without disrupting the natural prey drive....so in your experience...am I doing the wrong thing? Zillah is training up very fast and already treats me as alpha...including cleanining all my toes, ears etc & following me around like a brown shadow :D ..he also looks straight to me for conformation on command as to how he will respond to prey temptations and will hold a stay until I release him (all in 4 weeks of training) his stay around food results in a puddle of drool on the carpet! hahahahaa! I also tend to train in "dog language" first (as I was trrained by a very wise bitch), then verbal, then visual...Zillah already responds to all modes of "correction & praise" so where I'm leading...is that I have a dog that has a very high prey drive which I can control in controlled situations (ie: home & backyard) via pack drive. but...am I actually making things hard for myself down the track because I am actively controlling the prey drive. I won't play tug of war with zillah...he releases & he gets a reward, he doesn't and he gets a growl...I actively train against the "bite" (mostly due to the negative press that dobe's receive) and ask for the release each time. A mouthing, results in a growl from me!....this is the way I trained Daims, and he would only ever flip into attack mode when I was personally being threatened, otherwise, he would put up with the worst manners that could possibly be displayed. I could also call him off with one command, if the threat retreated..which was just as I wanted him. so I suppose my question is twofold....am I training the "wrong" way...and can the same results be achieved another way that is demostrabably superior? from what I understand from reading these threads, is that I do train in prey mode, but I also add pack mode to the training so that I have total control over my dogs. believe me, I'm not arguing against prey drive training, I'm just questioning it's appropriatness in a breed that shows highly developed prey drive as instinctual & curbing that so that it doesn't become a liability :D & just pointing out IMH experience, that pack taraining can providew that balance ....don't get me wrong..I have found this whole thread facinating & informative! AUs

In addition to deception & manipulation...if we're talking about dobe's...then you have to add..being able to assess whether the command is real, or just desired being able to sook any comfort & tolerance out of your handler...and simpley being so adorable, even when being "naughty" that you can get out of any punishment! :D Aus God I love Dobe's!!!! They think they're human..and they've convinced us too! I swear all dobe owners have "sucker" tattooed on their forehead...or is it just that dobe's are so intelligent, they can turn the most sternest trainer/handler into a quivering mass of malleable softie!???? :D :D Aus

I forgot to add...Zillah's now going through the stage of "a hug is not enough" (16 mths) ....a REAL hug is climbing up onto mums lap/chest and resting all 34 kgs on her ribcage! hahaha....BTW...has anyone else noticed how bony dobe elbows can be????? mummys bust is the perfect pillow & is in close proximity to her chin, which can be licked for alpha adoration from time to time! ....also as hand"maiden" to alpha mum, ears must be licked clean as well as any exposed toes!!! yep, even between the toes! hahhahaha...toenails are for nibbling, in the precise grooming of alpha bitch! Aus

hahahhahaahahhaahaahahahaahahahhahahahhaha! YOU SUCKER!!!!!! hahahahahaahahhhahhhha (hell I can't talk! Zillah sleeps with me now...with his own doona!!! ...and pillow!!!! ) :D :D :D :D Aus Flames Daddy...this is what flame might look like if he gets to the grand old age that Daim's did ;)

Thanks Nadia...I was just curious! gee I'm glad I don't live in a heartworm area anymore! cheers Aus

Honey! Huge hugs to you and sincere condolences. I've just been through this with my "partner" Daims... 3 weeks ago....cry as much as you can...let it out...talk about it & remember all the happy times! & know that at least she had a good life with you...so many dogs don't ever get the chance to have a loving home! :D hugs & more hugs Aus :D

all good advice...& just wanted to back up what Nic said... because they've got floppy ears, make sure you dry them carefully, as infections/canker can develop very quickly & can cause the dog alot of distress...as well as distress to your wallet after a trip to the vets to get antibiotics, ear fungal cream etc... cheers Aus

That photo of her is shocking!!! I want to cry! ...thank god you came along & rescued her! If she can tolerate it, I have found that chicken fat. meat & frames are a nutritious but fairly easy on the tummy way to fatten a dog & improve coat condition at the same time. you're doing the right thing by small feeds often..keep up the good work! ...also perhaps get dome divetlac from the vets...it's highly nutrtious & can assist in rehydration as well. good luck Aus