Australdi

thanks M-J ..I do use drive training, but i also incorporate other drives, simply because i have found that the dobe's I have worked with have been so prey motivated, that I had to develope a different way to gain their attention ..if i kept them in prey drive all the time..I would have no hope of controlling them! ..instead, I have varied my training routine to include all aspects of the dog's natural instincts...and this has worked well for me! & I've ended up with well trained/socialised & polite dogs (if still a bit sooky! ) so I can't say that I am unhappy with the results! ..I do speak better in animal language than human language, so I suppose i have got a couple of people offside with how I've expressed myself.....but it has always been my intention to express the dog's point of view rather than what we expect as humans. but in saying that; I don't deminish the role that we humans have to play as pack leaders...I believe this is vitally crucial to the dog's welfare!...and sadly, for it's own protection! I just wish people could accept me on face value, just like my dogs do..there are no hidden adgendas...I hold no hostility to anyone....I just want people to undersatand dogs as dogs, not surrogate humans! :D In love & peace...Aus ;)

NP..I finally found it! & have responded according to my own weird compulsions aus

Erny...wher have you gone!?...whe're still waiting for the "new" topic!!!! ...I'm an aries...so I get impatient...so bare with me as I pump you to hit submit! Aus

also check out "natural balance" (1300 132 505) you may be pleasantly supprised by both the quality & price & if you're in Meb...they deliver to your door! ..you can check them out on www.balancepetfoods.com.au I can't recommend them highly enough! Aus

BTW...I can't wait till the new thread starts up!..I'm happy to be qouted..all I ask is that I am quoted in full context cheers Aus

Michelle...form your post, I am sure you can get through this phase...dogs do go through phases...and during those they will challenge what they perviously accepted...sounds like you are doing pretty much the right thing (although, I also advise against smaking), just be consistant, explain to your kids that the dog (going thru a phase) may react differently to their actions, so to be alert to the different signals (this will make them very good animal handlers whenthey get older ) but honestly...this is very likely to be a phase your dog is going thru as he developes into his teens....& it's really crucial that you lead him into good behaviour rather than bad. from what you have said...you seem to be on the right track & only a few tweaks are required ;) there has been alot of advice on this thread..and I would advise employing a variety of stategies and seeing which works best for your dog & your family situation....don't be disheartened..all dogs goe thru this phase of "challenge" at a certain time; what is crucial is that you stick to the regimes that you have expected fro the dog in the past....and quicly correct him when he deviates from this....& I offer this in my own experience only....It doesn't sound like you have a dangerous dog onyour hands..only a teenage dog that is testing his limits and pack status I only offer this in hunble respect for both your family & your dog Aus

I whole heartedly agree!

And you would know that you are a better all rounder than I am at dog lanugage and understanding......how? A bit presumtive perhaps? I wonder if we can take this discussion to another thread instead of hijacking this one. Would you like to kick it off Erny? Fine! start a new thread...what will it prove? I've made no comments on your ability to understand dog language, but you seem to have a lot to critisize about my training methods...so yeah, by all means; take it to another thread wher it belongs! Aus

Sunny I can understand your concern & I am in no way trying to hijack this thread...but each time I try to offer some advice I have been subjected to mortar fire! I am fairly confident in saying that the fact that your 8yold is sleeping on your dobe's rump is due to the good socialisation & leadership he recieved from you (although I've noticed that dobe's are particularily tolerant of both children & pups..but hey, maybe that's just the way we have raised them! ) I too am concerned for your friends kids, & personally, untill they recieve specific help with the dog, I would personally reccomend keeping the children away from the dog...as at the moment, it is unpredictable :D...where I seem to differ from everyone else..is that I don't put the onus on the dog...I put it back on the handlers, which is why I try to offer some ways to overcome undesirable traits in dogs....& I have been on the recieving end of quite a few! (and horses as well!)...but all have responded posetively to strong & consistant guidence & patience and as yet...I haven't had a dog or horse who has "beaten" me yet! :D...even those that others have said were uncontrollable & needed to be PTS! I've been able to break through their fear barriers!...with love, compassion & consistancy..and to some degree obstinancy! Sunny...all I'm trying to do is offer as much help as I know how to do....I don't want to create the ruckus that is going on at the moment...but I do feel that I have the right to defend what I know....I hope I haven't been too much of a distraction, and that through it all all the good advice can be used to help your friend! peace Aus

I have no issue with anyone who chooses to refer to themselves as the Alpha of their dog pack. If they feel that's the role they play then I certainly won't argue with them. I honestly don't think my dogs see me as another dog so therefore I can't be a member of their pack. The dogs certainly take my lead because I believe dogs do what is in their own best interests and to challenge me or ignore a command has consequences such as:- If they do not recall the fun is over and there will be no more fetching the ball. If they try to push me out of the way to get through a door then the door is closed in their face. If they rush at their food bowl then they are told to sit again until I give the OK. In all these instances and others I won't bore you with I see it as the dogs knowing darn well that I control all resources. They want what I have or what I can give them so they need to offer certain behaviours to get what they want. I don't believe they are compliant because I am the alpha and therefore 'she who must be obeyed' but because unless they do offer the appropriate behaviour they have been trained to offer then they won't get what they want. They do get told AH AH if they offer the wrong behaviour. I don't need dominance over my dogs, I need respect and compliance. To me the term Alpha represents the dominance of one dog over the other dogs in their group or pack, if you prefer. ummm...CavNrott..what you are describing IS dominance over your dogs...but not; I agree in the "alpha " sense. As alpha...I am priveliged to recieve (whether I enjoy it or not) all the behaviour that indicates a pack member is willing to abide by the "alpha"...this includes ear cleaning...toe cleaning & nail trimming....I don't actually find the experience exactly pleasant...however, I also acknowledge that is in dog language the way a pack member curries favour with the "alpha" & therefore I allow it, for as long as I can stand it! when you say you don't believe you are acting as "alpha.".. however you control the rewards....this is what an "alpha" does!...so you might not consider yourself "alpha" but I'll lay money that your dogs look at you as "alpha"! I get both respect & complience without "dominating" the pack hierachy....they actively seek my company and approval to keep their own standing in the pack and it requires little reinforcement from me (once established) to keep them seeking my approval & favour ...seriously...it's not that different to what you are doing, except that I am a bit more responsive & accept & understand what my dogs are saying in their language ;) Aus

I certainly don't seek to denegrate, Australdi. As I pointed out in another earlier post - when you are dealing in potentially injurious matters, it's not IMO satisfactory to advise ANY method that could be taken as challenging by a dog over the net in the absence of knowing the people and dog/s concerned. which is why I advised individual training programs.... In addition, whilst I applaude that your methods have been successful in relation to your two dobes, two dogs out of the whole population does not make that method right or appropriate for others. What some of us have been pointing out here is not to degenerate you as such, but it is to inform the OP (and her friend, for whom this thread was generated) that there are dangers in simply removing food and also dangers in creating a challenge. which is why I advised individual training programs. Please always keep your mind open to the fact that what has worked for you might have been a bit flukey and may not bring about the result required in other people's instances. which is why I advised individual training programs Please also keep your mind open to the fact that many who read here (not only the OP) may well be very new to the world of dogs and, feeling they know less, take literally and for gospel a lot of what is said. Hence the need for caution in what you say, about the topic you say it in (bearing in mind the sensitivities required for potential injuries) and how you say and explain it. Erny..I know this is where I fall short..I find animals easier to communicate with than humans! What if this dog/pup did not respond in the way you imagine it might? What then? This is the sort of information people need. Training - especially behaviour modification, is not black and white. It's not simply a matter of "do this and the dog will do that" .... because all dogs are different and all people are different. Ergo the perception between dog and human and vice versa is different from one to another. again...that's why I advise individual training programs.... however....training an animal is not some secret gift that is only available to the few...it's available to anyone who wants to make the time & effort to research their breed & animals in general.....then spend some quality time observing them interact in a natural environment!...it's actually NOT rocket science! Aus

please note...I never suggested rough handling ...just advised to use dog language..so the dog can understand what is expected of him Aus

see Jeff....is, if I was to think like a dog on this...a yelp & retreat is an instant admission of submissiveness ..so therefore, I now know I can get my own way by repeating the behaviour, I am dominant...and can use that to gain control over those beneath my pack level...it's pretty cute if I'm a small dog...but it's downright serious if I'm a larger, more "agressive" breed....and that...simply...is why I don't give my Dobe's the opportunity to experience that superiority over me as soon as they get to the age when they're ready to test my pack status (as they all do) then I let them know in dog language, that they don't have a hope of getting me to back down or submitt...and they accept this, and I never have an argument over dominance again! Instead, I have a Dobe who is eager to do what I ask...responsive to recall...totally trustworthy with children & pups...but a real man-stopper when it comes to un-authorised intrusions or attacks! I went through this dominence challenge with Daim's at 10 mths of age....he lived to almost 11 & never again challenged my leadership! ;) ...I'm just puting this up as alternative food for thought! Aus

okay...I've already stated I'm in a touchy mood.....but if everything that everyone is throwing at me is true..then surely, I would have been attacked/bitten by one of my own dogs!....but this hasn't happened....so where are the wires getting crossed!? even allowing for my touchiness...it doesn't seem to matter what I say...someone comes up, quotes me in limited context, then proceeds to denigrate anything I say, regardles of the full context of what I wrote....so what the hell am I meant to think!? look; I don't have any political or comercial adgendas...I just love dogs & have (perhaps) been blessed to mother 2 of the most beautiful & well behaved dobes you'd come across (neither were a walk in the park in the beginning..but I achieved the positive result through the methods I am attempting to share) ..however...some people & I don't know why...seem to want to denigrade the methods I used to achieve my results. heck, I'm only trying to help by offering alternative solutions....but some don't seem to like that. & it's not even as if I disagree with what others are saying!!!....if I diverge just the slightest, I'm slamed! as dog owners...I'm sure the first thing that our adolecent pups taught us to be was tolerant & patient...why can't we all follow our dogs example? MY categorical belief is that the training program has to suit both the trainer & the dog...and be mindfull of breed specific tendancies...is that so radical? Is asking people to understand their dogs point of view so radical? is asking people to consider their specific dogs personality when devising training methods (as well as their own personality) so radical? so why the heck am I feeling that every time I open my mouth & express myself...I'm instantly declared a "dangerous" dog & ought to be muzzled!?..geez...I'm just trying to help...and put 20+ yrs of animal training out there in case it helps someone! go ahead, crucify me if you want...just because I don't suplicate myself to the newest fad that comes along....I look at results..and if that is anything to go by..then I don't feel the need to question too much of what I have done! okay...I'm shutting up now!...what's the point of being one voice in a sea of dogmatism! Aus

personally & IMHO...she's doing the right thing removing the food every time he growls!...and also doing the right thing by continually attempting touch and reinforcement when he is feeding. ..but I'm really getting to the point when I'm just waiting for someone to shoot me down, then describe the same thing in their own words! ...a very disillusioned Aus!

my growl is timed at the same time as the mouthing...and continues until the release is gained. Aus..already prepared for flying rocks!

Of course people should be able have a dog give up whatever it has in its mouth but you need to train the dog to do this. They are not born knowing it. I don't believe this incident has a thing to do with pack tussle....this is a puppy who is just doing what puppies do. My dogs will spit out, projectile fashion, anything they have in their mouths when I say 'OUT'. They do that because I trained them to and I trained them by trading with them, not with any dominant method. I don't really hold much value in the 'pack' system. My dogs respect me because I control resources. They obey me because it's in their best interest to do so. They have their own system of heirachy but that's between themselves and can change. My position does not change. They know I am not a dog and therefore not a member of the 'pack'. I have Rottweilers and have never been challenged by any of my dogs. Now they are stronger than me. I'm a small person and each dog and I weigh about the same. I have their respect because I am consistent with them and I am fair. I don't expect them to obey a command they have not yet learnt. I just can't see how you can expect a dog to relinquish something as important to them as food until you have their trust and respect. Again I would like to stress the importance of obedience training to the owners of the puppy because that way they will learn how to train the pup. Already they are experiencing difficulty and don't know how to handle the situation. Research, read training books and most importantly, have a consultation with a reputable trainer/behavourist.(not someone who resorts to the alpha roll) CavNrott....now you've really got me confused! ...because you have just described yourself in "alpha role" in the pack...and you totally ignored my comment that both dogs & kids require training! ...and yet, you insist that Alpha training has no place....but you describe doing exatly that!???? dogie doggy is also describing teaching alpha pack leadership to her kids as well as her dogs...and she's getting the same results I did when I employed the same techniques...so what's the issue!? why is everyone so adversarial on this site!???? ....even when people are describing the same methods, they try to argue that they are somehow different! I'm sorry, I am touchy because I lost my faithful (& well trained) companion of almost 11 years, so I'm certainly not being as patient as those who have known me a while would expect....but I just can't shut my mouth, when someone describes exactly what I was saying, but tries to crucify me in the process! I have never come across a forum quite like this!...most other forums I attend, the members go out of their way to help each other! ..here it seems that members go out of the way to put other members down & elevate their own egos in the process!' sorry if this is comming across harsh...but I'm just too raw to give a damn!...if you don't think this refers to you, then ignore it...if you think it does...well maybe you might be right! surely this is a place where people are meant to help each other...not publicly villify them! ;) Aus ...rant over...taken some valium & returning to crate! Aus

ERNY...I agree..I have also never witnessed a pack leader have to correct beyond a small nip & growl...the subordinate is the one who chooses to roll over! just to clear up any confusion....I was refering to pack ROLE ..not "roll" in my previous posts! Aus

hey I just used a well timed growl...but that seems to be frowned upon in these circles! Aus

why is the Alpha role so sudenly out of "vogue"???? has anyone informed dog packs that this is no longer the way to conduct themselves???? heck!...this is the way dogs relate to each other!....how can it be so easily dismissed?..or more to the point...ignored? Alpha training is NOT all about manhandling & pushing the dog around...it's about teaching manners, just like it's pack leader would! (and that doesn't need to involve aggresive methods!) ok..I'm retreating to my crate again!!! Aus

CaveNrott ;) I actually agree with all that you are saying...apart from one small thing All humans in a dog family, should be taught & be able to confidently approach & take food from the dogs mouth...no matter the circumstances! when this is possible, you know you have a dog who "knows" his place in the pack! ....I'm simply expressing the ideal here...& agree that a profesional one on one trainer should be sought to facilitate this type of hierachy! I have trained dogs to this level and could have an 11mth old child eating food out of my dobe's mouth! ....(not that I encouraged that!!! euck!) but from what sunny described...it's a classic pack tussle & at the moment..dog considers himself higher than the kids! solution...both dog & kids need to be trained just MHO.... Aus :D

Sunny.. I'm not in any way advocating that the children shouldn't be suprevised around the dog..especially during this phase! ( or indeed, even in later phases ) all I was trying to highlight was at the age of 11, the child should be capable of exerting dominence over the dog.. As for the younger children, until the dog is completely comfortable with kids...they should at ALL times be supervised & any time the dog shows agressivness I personally believe it should be strongly corrected! (bugger if I diminish drive...a child's life/health is at stake!) I also agree that specific training from a behaviourist ought to be beneficial! ...but my most empathic point, was that this behaviour cannot & ought not to be tolerated..point blank!....it's simply too dangerous for both the childs health ...and the dogs! ;) Aus

Sunny... This is a pack altercation...and needs to be nipped in the bud immediately! At 11 yrs old...the child involved should be able to exercise pack leadership signals over the dog...ie: feeding, correction & dominance. I know there's alot of people here who don't agree with me...but I would advise your friend to get the child that was challenged to take over feeding....and not let the dog get away with anything but complete complience...ie: waiting for the releaase!....as well as structured exercises where the child takes toys from the dog with a firm growl & strong tone of voice...the sort that says "I'm not to be messed with!" The only reason a dog would bite the child is if he thought he had a higher pack status...and that is what needs to be corrected! ....although I'm sure there will be alot of people who challenge me on that theory!!! Aus (hiding behind brick wall now! ;)) ...but still shouting, "just think about it for a second from the dog's point of view!!!"

hehehehehe..don't worry, we all do! ;) I mean...how can you actually resist those dobe eyes! P.s. hahahaa..knew you would! :D :D Aus

sunny...from experience...if you give dobe's an inch they will take 5 miles!!! Aus