Australdi

That could work if I get desperate...he knows about lemons after he grabbed a wedge that fell on the floor once...should have seen the look on his face!! At the moment, a quick pfft of breath in the direction of his nose is doing the trick (must be all the garlic I eat!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ) oh & Sunny ...aries are much better at looking after everyone elses problems than they are attending to their own ...don't worry, he'll get bored with it soon enough & then he'll want you to start rock climbing or base jumping! Aus

My first dobe had contact allergy from grass so bad, he'd lose all his belly, chest & inner leg hair & require cortisone shots each month during summer! Then everyone at dog training gave me the secret! remove red meat from the diet...replace with chicken base. worked brilliantly, no more cortisone shots & the small patches that did still remain were easilly treated with a blend of 5% chamomile oil, and washing with seboayse. & moving to a different house had the final result of no more dermatitis! Aus

Good god... that explains our stand-off... I am an Aries as well! :D :D ...hey at least we forget it the next day! ....and it was my strong aries protection drive that brought me to comment in the first place. ..actually, being an aries with a Saggie rising...I never stop talking! (but my pisces moon makes quite a sensitive little lamb sometimes ;) ) as for going off topic...heck I'm an aries...I can be distracted by anything new & exciting, so it's not an issue at all! staying focussed on one topic is! :p ;) Aus

oh oh I 'get' you too now Aus...I live with an Aries :D Lucky for you guys I'm a Leo so if we ever have a big fight on here I will forgive you in the morning :D oh heck! does your other half ever get a chance at the mirror in the bathroom!!!??? ;) ;) (my brother is a leo ;)) and yeah, I do respond well to acceptance & adulation :p :p :D Aus

:D hehehe...so now you "get" me myzka :D Aus

That is a good point K9... I was probbably putting Zillah under too much distraction on one level, as this was a dog who to all intents & purposes had no basic training, as I personally had an expectation that he could eventually behave like my trained dobe (who had a much better foundation), given the instruction & consistency. The beautiful thing is that Zillah has reminded me to "every season , turn, turn , turn" and I have adjusted my training schedule to take this into account. He's not Daim's, he hasn't had the same preparation & I need to work with him as an individual :D a timely reminder for someone who was perhaps getting a bit blase in training animals (not really been tested for at least 2 years!..horses & dogs )...the pertinant point is that I had "students" who had at least minimal basic training :D In my observation, Zillah (maybe abberant) doesn't respond to the type of correction applied...all seem to have their success & failure....however he is very sensitive to the intensity of the application (sometimes in situations of high distraction, it is the intensity alone that draws his attention) I'm trying at the moment, to correct this...so that the mode, rather than the intensity is the driving factor. and it's definately working, but it's a day by day lesson like you said...I'm endevouring to decrease distractions, so that minimal correction is applied...and where correction is decreased, it is counterbalanced with an increase in positive motivation., so in a sense, I don't see this as "backing off" as the balance is mitigated ;) & yes...it is working..faster than I even projected ;) Aus

never fear, I'm an aries...so backing off is not in my vocab! ;) I did have to adjust my intensity of correction though, as Zillah seems (despite his earlier contradictory reactions) quite astute & sensitive. Each day I adjust my interaction with him, although still maintain a consistancy in what I expect in his behaviour (bottom line :p) It's an ongoing process due to his (indeterminate) past history..and it's only been just over 2 months since I got him. however, it is comming along nicely if I take a broader perspective on it..he has progressed in leaps & bounds! (I just had it easy for the last 8 yrs with Daims....and sunk into complacency as a consequence ) ;) I began to believe that Daim's was the "norm"! unfortunately, Zillah, didn't have the same enviroment that Daim's had in his formative years, so the work continues :D Zillah has actually relaxed into a dog who is currently sitting on the couch, napping & quite content...which according to the RSPCA handlers that looked after him for a month, is behaviour that they couldn't even imagine from him, so I must be doing something right! ( the first comment they all had, was supprise that he had 4 feet on the ground!) as all they had seen was an exhuberant dobe who pulled, jumped & generally was overcome to excitement of attention! He's now (I can begin to see) a dog who can contain himself, despite his enthusiasm :p because he learned very quickly that there is a level of expected behaviour when those boundaries are consitantly reinforced and rewarded. ;) ...we're getting closer to the fine tuning stage now, & I'm really impressed with his willingness to work with this, all he needed was some direction & leadership...he's intelligent enough to work it out for himself ;) as for his licking....it's his learned way of "making things right" and the more we work together, the more he learns that he doesn't have to resort to this behaviour....like I said, I was just being an irritable "bitch" when I posted this thread! and it's an ongoing process of levels....correct one issue, and then adjust depending on the response, every day is a learning day at the moment...for both of us ;) & I'm taking longer than he is, because I still am affected by the loss of Daims. (and the level of behaviour that Daims displayed) ultimately, having "been there & done that" I know that Zillah is progressing even quicker than Daim's did at the same age...but being an impatient aries...I have to continually remind myself that it did take work & dedication until I had a dog like Daims! & I have no doubt that Zillah can ultimately achieve even more than Daim's did, if I give him a supportive environment....for a start, at least we don't have to stop at EVERY tree! :D ...Amazing how two little dangly bits can alter behaviour! to answer your observation...I was eventually "over correcting"...however in the first month, strong correction was required at times. I've had to modify it now that Zillah is responding to me quickly & positively, as if I didn't I would undo all the work we have so far done. Like I said, it's a day by day balance until we reach synchronicity ;) & lucky for me...we seem to be getting very close to that already! :D Aus

Sunny :p hehehhee..yep it's so cute! & I'm a big sucker for cute (except when I'm in bitch mode! ) so he does sometimes get away with murder! ...I mean how can you resist that hurt innocent raising of the eyebrows and puppy dog eyes!! :D as for what the neighbours think....I suspect mine are jealous too! :D ;) because I use the same line too "stop licking me for christsake!" ;) :p Aus

Thanks K9, you've hit the nail on the head as the correction is his cue to start sucking up! ;) even the low growl suggested by Tangerine dream is enough to get him going :D It's entirely my fault of course as in the beginning, I did accept a small amount of it, whilst I was assessing his levels of agression (he was a 15 mth old rescue) & was showing some very assertive behaviours after the first week. He'd spent most of his life chained up or caged & hadn't learned socialising, and wasn't reading other dogs signals to back off, so I must admit, I rewarded him when he would back down...I've now got a dog that will "leave off" annoying other dogs with over the top play...but suffering the predicatable consequences! :D (at least I've got clean toes & belly button! hahahaha!) he is slowly getting the "no licks" command and I have had to lower the intensity of my corrections & intensity of distraction to achieve it, being an adolecent, who was seriously understimulated previously, he's taking to training like a duck to water! since it has been over 8 years since I've had an adolecent dobe on my hands (& that one was well trained by 10 mths) I had almost forgotten the passion dobes have to learn their lessons so quickly. so I'm really only having a hissy rant brought about by one evening when I wasn't feeling well (& therefore niggly) & in his enthusiasm to make me feel better the tongue was out in force! hahaha & each time I asked him to stop, or tried to avoid it, he just tried harder! :p having been chained for so long, I believe he developed licking as a self soothing behaviour as I've noticed in the 2 months I've had him his self-licking has reduced dramatically. due to all his other behavioural issues he came with...I'm really not worried about the licking, because it indicates that he's understanding his re-training/training and I'd rather a dobe that can read emotions, than one who is de-sensitised. he was just trying to make "mum" feel better in the way he used to make himself feel better & it was more my issue than his! Mum was having a "bad hair day" ...and I was being a bitch! ;) Aus

:D ok...I've tried "no licks" and correctional reinforcement....I've also tried positive distraction.... but still, he want's to lick to suck up to me, shmoose, and clean my toes! I know it's a pack heirachy response...I know it's him trying to curry my favour...but I just can't bear the constant licking!!! a small amount is ok...but this is getting rediculous!!! ...yeah, I know, dobes are sooks!....they are the cosumate smoozers for pats & lov'in....but my toes, hands, arms, legs, fingers & belly button are no longer safe from the attack of the irrepresible tongue! :D any suggestions!???? ????? ;) Aus

and spikes puppy..I know exactly what you are describing..because I'm still trying to come to terms with loosing my (almost) 11 yr old dobe 2 months ago...and it was a loss that plunged me into critical depression...as that dog had saved my life 3 times! (and stuck by me 8 years longer than any "partner" had...I have another dobe pulling me through it all....but he's not the same dog/partner that I lost I am about to lose 3 of my grandparents within the next 2 years...and the possibility that one of my parents may crumble too...& if I'm going to be honest...the loss of my dog has been more devastating. because he was there for me when no-one else was. No doubt I will grieve at the loss of my close family, but I believe that I will be pragmatic when that eventuates...unfortunately, I could not be as pragmatic when Daims left me so suddenly...the impact it has had on my life, I can't begin to explain! Aus

That's a big call for those of us that have chosen not to have children...our dogs are not just child subsittutes...but also our permanent partners often.... the loss of a partner like that is just as devastaing as the loss of of a human partner..perhaps more so, as dogs tend to be more faithfull than humans! ..I don't doubt that it's quite easy for some people to move on from the death of a dog....I also acknowledge (from my own experience) that losing a partner..a faithfull partner that has lasted 8 years longer from any human counterpart is a devastating event. ...an event that maybe is not as easy to "get over" as you experienced the 2 opposing experiences of the loss of a dog (one can experience it as an inevitable & logical process due to the relative life spans of dogs to humans)...& yet a dog can be so much more to an individual than a human partner can be....and that is not a relationship that should be disregared lightly :D ....at the end of the day....my dog...Daim's was far superiour to any human counterpart, and he was much more than "just a dog" I'm not saying that your perspective is wrong....for many...it's very accurate....however, I implore you to consider that there are other alternatives/experiences out there, and that those experiences are just as valid as yours :D sincerely Aus

don't laugh! ...maybe it's your "calling"!!!!!! BTW...I also have polish blood in me....is this linked to the "dobe lov'in gene"??? :D Aus

have to agree with this 100% ...& it's hilarious to watch some of the lateral solutions they come up with in testing out what works & what doesn't!!! I've been away from here for a while (due to studies) but thought you all might like an update on how Zillah's going...he's a very different dog from when I first got him (2 or so months ago)..but still a long way to go! like K9 force says...he's learning by testing what works & what doesn't..ie: a demanding bark, or jump on the window will not get him inside, but a soft wuff will he knows it, because he always ends up giving the correct response, but he's still testing what he can get away with! hahaha (dobe families will understand what I'm saying) typical teenage dobe that he is...he'll test every boundary that you set & you'd better be consistant in your response, because give a dobe an inch & they'll take a mile! ;) although I haven't had alot of time spare at the moment (final essays & swatting for exams) Zillah is now consistently heeling on lead (4 training sessions), ignoring most distractions, sit stays good....drop stays pretty good, but still need more work (only time he doesn't break is when food is on offer), recall improving but inconsistant when the pup next door is yapping behind the fence! ...so as soon as exams are over, we are going to do some solid recall training (can't wait until the day I can let him off lead outside the back yard!.....race track runs here we come!! ) he also learned on Sunday that even though he already knows that bones are not allowed inside....if mum & dad are distracted by something like the final 5 mins of bathurst...then a bone can be snuck inside, but when mum & dad spot it I have to take it back out ASAP!...doesn't stop him from trying to do nonchalent walk by's to see if we're watching & he even attempted the drop it at the door, then go back later & try to sneek it in backwards!! :D (bummer, that one didn't work either! spotted!!) hehehhehe...Daim's taught me NEVER to underestimate the ingenuity of a Dobermann! Dobes aren't just smart when they're allowed to think for themselves.....they're downright cunning! ....but harnessing that drive/cunningness makes them pretty easy, ...well relatively easy to train as long as you remain more intelligent than they are ....which is an on-going test of wits for quite a number of years in my experience. Just when you think you've got 'em licked....they'll push the envelope! if you're prepared for that..then they're like putty in your hands until you relax your guard! :D but they're so adorable, you can't help but love 'em! Aus

:D :D ;) .... now I think you understand where I was comming from. my only problem was that half the rangers/coppers/etc...would use any excuse to come around for a cuppa! so I HAD to be Ms "prim & proper!" BTW I only said the "magic word" once (years after training) and I had him on lead at the time, he remembered it, & saved me from a very nasty situation (walking at night) after that particular incident, he would automatically "assume the position" just waiting for the word when a threat made itself known & thank goodness I never had to use it again & thank goodness I never had to take it further & release him from the lead (phew!) his stance & warning glare seemed to be as effective in a non-working encounter to those that tried. people would laugh as they thought they knew Daims...and declared that he was so sooky la-la that he'd lick someone to death, rather than step into protective drive...until they saw him in a REAL threat scenario....after that they agree with what I told them, he'll never start it, but if lines are drawn & hints/warnings aren't acknowledged & respected..he'll finish it. He was one very loyal & very patient companion, but if I was in real danger....he responded to breed type. The point is....you can get away (sometimes) with speeding on the odd occasion, but if you do it regularily, or obviously in a public setting, your odds of getting away with it are rapidly diminishing Aus

I would love to go to something like this...but also know that reality is that I an't afford it (student budget) ...& the only time I get back to the mainland now is for family crisis....not exactly prime time for training focus (I'm talking about me..not the dog! ) ..however.....if anyone was inclined to have a holiday in the gorgeous island of tassie..... :D :D ....you know, you haven't really seen the best of Australia until you've visited tassie! ;) hehehe and yes..I am qualified to say this...I've driven to every major destination in Aust except Broome!!! (and it's still on the list! ) Aus

Interesting topic! I've had both houdinis & non roamers...and one who could morph between to two depending on the circumstances and his age & opportunity... My observations, are that it really does come down to the individuality ie:personality/instincs& drives of the dog. my first rescue dog was a dobe x GSD....he was a serial jumper! I saw him on many occasions jump 9ft fences without footing them! ....99 times out of 100 he only jumped so he was outside waiting for me when I drove up...mum used to know I would be home in 5 mins, when he jumped the fence! one session of an electric fence did have the effect of 6 mths no jumping, but it eventually wore off. he wouldn't actually "go" anywhere...just sit on the nature strip or driveway waiting for me to pull up..then jump in the car as I opened the door, no time for me to get out, sit in the back seat & wouldn't get out of the car until I'd taken him for a drive around the block! The exceptions were....in the first week I "owned" him...(before I knew of his superman ability to leap high fences in a single bound) he took him self off to the local shopping centre (crossing several major roads in the process!!! ) for some fussing & lovin from the local shopkeepers! (luckily he was tagged with my number & they called me)....seems he was shmoozing & being adorable! (yep, he had alot of dobe in him! ) the 2nd was when on the one day the ranger was up at the local park...he decided he'd take himself for a walk! & as the ranger opened his van to get out...my car ride lovin boy jumped right in! :D (ranger almost wet himself laughing!) and without fail...every bath day! (this was the only time he'd take off on me!!!) the neighbours actually worked it out by his behaviour & I'd get the response...hehehe..."obviously bath day!" from them & it didn't matter how well I hid bath preparation from him...somehow he'd know & over the fence and try to 'hide' sitting at least 2 houses distance from me! ;) all other times off lead (unless under the "ok" release to tear around the park to play with his best mate (a lab) he would stick pretty much like glue at either a heel, or no more than 2 metres away from me on the free walk. (generally though he would assume the position of "rear guard" :D ) my bullie x only ever escaped twice...first time she pushed/broke through the neighbours fence to be with her soulmate (the GSD next door) like romeo & julliet they would swoon at each other across the driveway! :D unfortunately, she came into her first season very early, & way before I expected it..and romeo next door was proudly strutting his stuff that afternoon! ....consequence...the only other time she ever got out, was to dig under the other fence & take her litter of 4 wk olds on a training/exploration run down to the creek to teach them the finer things in life! ARRG! luckily I was home at the time, & 5 mins of sudden silence alerted me that something was going on, so I was in hot pursuit! & luckily directed by some neighbours kids who, smirks on their faces asked if I was looking for a bitch & 5 pups trotting eagerly & obediantly behind her as she walked through their backyard and out the gate that backed onto the park!! (they told me it was quite an amusing parade!) Daims...well he was the one who had the changeable character (perhaps because he was entire...or maybe because he was also a sly prankster) as both a youngster & an oldie...he was a home stayer...even when our back gate was smashed by burglers, he and the jack russell in the back yard only went to the front verandah to bark at the sharpei inside the house. alerting the neighbours who called the ranger, who instantly recognised what had happened when he went to put the dogs back into the back yard...and he then called the police! seems the would be burglers kicked in the back gate to let the dogs out & hung out of harms way on the carport whilst doing so...then went to break into the back door..and found another guard dog on the inside of the house and decided (wisely IMHO to give up before they became breakfast! ) Police thought it was highly amusing! As an oldie, when we came down to tassie, at first there were no side fences..but he'd keep himself to the property and performed his "border patrols" & didn't wander (however, he was always confined to the house when I had to go out)....the only times he ever took off on me were a couple occasions where he decided to have a play run...ie: I sneek out because someone left the gate open, or I'm on an offlead run at the race track...I get far enough ahead so I can pretend I'm deaf....but I'll sit & wait for mum to almost catch up with me (can't have her falling too far behind, because that would spoil the game! ;) ), then run off again! until he'd finally tire of the game & would "allow" himself to be caught! & with those "innocent" dobe eyes look at me as if to say...what took you so long! . his recall was a 99 out of 100 affair...usually he could be recalled from 4 - 5 furlongs +...but sometimes decided (luckily only on a couple of occasions) that the deaf running game would be more fun! (maybe he decided that mum was getting a bit podgy & needed the exercise! ) BTW...Daims was highly trained, and had excellent recall...but dobes occasionally like to test the limits of what they can get away with! ;) & can be bl@@dy sneaky when they feel inclined! Zillah (the ADD teenager) so far hasn't had the inclination for escape yet (touch wood) but I don't give him many opportunities yet, as his training has a long way to go before I'll "trust" him with off lead work outside of the back yard...and most of his backyard sessions are of either supervised duration, or in the company of a home stayer dog. However...boy can he jump! (over the rottie x or the couch)...but he hasn't tried jumping one fence yet! so...IMHO...it the dog's personality, instincts & whims of the moment can all assert influence & motivation at times. cheers Aus

Thanks for the link sparty...maybe the rules haven't relaxed at all. I was a licenced guard, so that wasn't the issue, but it would have cost me $ (due to having to build dog run)to admit that Daim's was trained & espcially if I worked him. BTW...how old was that quote? just for interests sake? Aus

Maybe the constraints have been relaxed in the last nine years....the revised dog act was very new when I first made enquiries...so maybe the interpretations were not fully decided upon at the time either :D I don't know...I stopped persuing it after 6 months of getting no-where. cheers Aus

not quite.... 1. I used to work in the security/investigations industry....been out of it now for about 5 years. (burn out)...and Daim's was trained, but I couldn't admit that at the time. 1.a ...I never took him to work...or pretended to work him...the chistmas lights was a traditional family outing...purely social, just happened to bump into the guys we knew as the police & council were involved in running crowd control there due to the huge numbers of people. 2. even though trained, he wasn't working, so it wasn't an issue. 3. he was, ....he didn't ....& I did (bad girl I was BTW...his temperment was perfect for it....that's why it's a shame I never worked him. & yes...I definately took the safe approach so that he had the best quality life Aus

What I did forget to add...was that when I used my horse at crowd functions...I had no such hoops re: by laws etc...the major hurdle there was public liability insurance! Aus anyone here ever go to the meredith music festival the year the "security horse" was there? ...well that was Pumpkin & me Aus

sigh.... I am fairly confident that the rangers didn't check all dobes in the area....like I said, it was more due to them knowing the sort of work that I used to do, and they knew me on a social basis too. this is going back almost 9 years, and at the time in Victoria a dog that was worked for guard/crowd control/protection in an official capacity, I was advised by both the police (security licensing) and by council by-laws, that the dog (if I worked him in this capacity) would immediately fall under the "declared" category, no matter what his actual behaviour was. I don't know if the laws have been relaxed since as I tried for six months to find away around them then gave up. it's probably likely that my enquiries also alerted the local guys that I was contemplating it, therefore it may have contributed to thier dilligence in making sure that I didn't work Daims in a commercial manner. I suppose there's really no secrecy, as Daims is now in a little cardboard box as a pile of ashes, however at the time, due to the amount of officials I had frequent contact with, & worked alongside with, I had to be quite careful what I said & the words I used, and I suppose it's just become a conditioned habit for me <shrug> I wish it was b/s ...as Daim's would have enjoyed the work & I would have enjoyed his company whilst patroling car parks & the like....a mag torch, just doesn't give you the same sense of company! (mind you, it was rare occasions when I did that sort of work...most of my work was done at a supervisory or above role in the end. So the amount of times I would have actually worked Daim's was not economically viable. the comment about his good behaviour being suspicious...was a light hearted joke that the rangers used to tease me with...it relates to a specific evening when we attended the christmas lights at the boulevard in Ivanhoe, which was just a few blocks from where I used to live. My Dad, Daims & I were talking to about 5 of the guys in by laws/rangers and Daim's behaviour in the crowd situation (there were 1000's of people there) ...and anyone who lives in the area can confirm the amount of people who attend the boulevarde at christmas on a warm night. Daim's had children running up to him, waving light sabres at him a'la luke skywalker style & he remained alert, but totally unfazed in a sit at heel....until a SWF..off lead decided to take him on! ....well it's another story, & I think I've already posted it before....but the rangers got quite a bit of amusement out of it, and Daim's return to unfazed heel sit, gave them stir ammo for me that "yeah, sure you're not working him"... I only put the comment in the post to lighten the post a bit, heck! however, it doesn't change the fact that the guys did often ask if he was being worked when they'd come around for a coffee, and I would always assure them that no, he was only trained in obedience & was a companion dog.... BTW...I have no idea how those laws related to police dogs/customs dogs etc....I suspect that they may have had an exemption being Govt. dogs, rather than private...I don't know, because I wasn't enquiring about that status... now...has that finally cleared it up???

K9: Never heard anyone say that before... :D :D ...well I never trained him how to fetch a beer from the fridge, open it, put it in a stubbie holder & bring it to me! :D ...or to poo in the toilet & flush the result...although I contemplated training him that one several times! :D I even had a special doggie loo for him!..all he had to do was lift up the lid & squat!...but I just never got around to it! ;) Di

thanks thats exactly what I though, but reading Aus I thought that perhaps every dog that is trained to bite HAS to be declared dnagerous. NOTE....experience of Victorian laws only It's not the bite training that has them declared...it's working them as security/guard dogs that immediately puts them into the declared category (I researched every way I could to get around this law as it stood at the time! ) getting them licenced to work also involves building a a specialised dog run with full concrete flooring...which I was quoted would cost aprox $4000! because I owned a dobe....and was well known by the local rangers through my father's occupation....they continually checked to make sure I wasn't working Daims....I also think they were a bit suspicious when they observed his behaviour in crowd situations...he was too well behaved :D heeheehe hence my decision not to "work" with my dog as we would only be getting $45 ph (I was already earning more than that by myself! ...in corporate....and 1/2 that in crowd control.) hope that clears it up. Aus

....like I tried to indicate earlier....I had to be very carefull how obviously I trained my dobe, as due to my position in the security & policing industry (I was fairly well known about the traps) I was constantly under scrutiny as to his level of training...he actually was highly trained..however to all intents and puposes he was "simply" obedience trained :p and his role was only ever companion dog! (and what a good one he was!) admittedly, I could have taken his training even further...but that would have entailed thousands of dollars outlaid, and my "gentle" giant being a declared dog....which was a path I decided was not economically or psychologically the right path to go down :p Aus