BJean

Thanks BM - when he first arrived he was breaking the twine, and then using his chest to barge out. he would go fwd, meet the gate or barrier, pause at the sound and then just keep going (such a doofus :rolleyes: ). He is not allowed to be 'locked' in anywhere now - we've decided if he really wants to exit the bulding, it is best to just let him go. But this has improved heaps and there hasnt been any damage for a while. If there's food about, he'll stay put

Thanks for the link sidoney - if I make a consistent effort I think we can get there I think him muckingup is nerves and not knowing what is going to happen or expected of him. But maybe also a bit stroppy when he has had enough? The trainer said he is used to throwing his weight around and obstacles giving way to him, so maybe this is part of that? Hmm don't know - will just try a few things and see how we go

After watching the vet try for half an hour to get hold of his nose to apply a twitch last year, I think I will give it a miss. (I shouldn't laugh but I'm sure he did it on purpose - let the vet get hold of his nose, and then throw his head up 'throwing' the vet away ) Also if he puts his head up I can't reach his nose or his ears . I don't want to encourage him to do this - not when he lowers his head to be tacked up, groomed, washed etc When I first got him it took me a few months for him to lower his head and allow me to brush between his ears etc - even when we had 'issues' over the weekend ;) he still lowered his head for me, so I don't want him to start having to worry about his head being in 'danger'. :p

hairy winter pics of the subject taken this morning:

Thanks Sidoney I think perhaps I had become lazy over winter with him and probably let him get away with things that months ago I would not have. So its back to the start - my trainer returns on thursday so hopefully over time the thorse and I will get succeed at establishing self control, trust and respect - in any circumstance. Lunged him before taking him out the paddock this morning and then led him out on a bridle - no rearing or striking out with his near foreleg - I was very relieved. I am now very cautious of leading him now - I think we both have to build up trust again ;) . Regarding his feet I can pick up his front legs - he lifts his front legs up on command - but back legs, not so good. I can pick them up but for only a minute or so - I will try making him work when he wont lift his back legs... Any suggestions to stop him striking out at the farrier? I can lift his front leg, move it forward and back, tap the hoof with a hammer etc, hold it up for 5, 10 mins etc - but after about two minutes with the farrier he won't lift his front legs any more and strikes out instead. He only has to get his front feet trimmed - anything I can do to stop him carrying on like a pork chop with the farrier?

Thankyou all for your helpful advice Only had time for a quick lead about today - Trifecta, I led him on the bridle with a tad more success I always keep real close to his shoulder so when he rears up I am out of the way of his forelegs. Ultimately we make our way slowly with me moving him laterally - applying pressure to his shoulder and keeping his front and hindquarters away from me. I'm going to go back to basics - before work tomorrow we are going to do some round yard work. I would like to work on our relationship - get it back to 50/50 - before I have to resort to a nose chain - I don't really want to use a more severe method of leading if I haven't needed to in the past. Choppa Chop - I am in Lysterfield, VIC. Tonymc - I will also follow up with the Join Up Process that you recommended - will wait for the trainer to return on thursday to oversee that. As of 6am tomorrow we are back in work! greychicken - if I'm not in hospital tomorrow morning I will take some pics. he is very hairy and shedding his winter coat, so looks like a mammoth. Benji'sMum my OH has been giving him lucern for the past week I usually keep him on rye/clover or grass hay, so yes i think he also has had some extra beans RealityBites it may sound silly :cool: but I am concerned about rapping his forlegs with a whip (while leading him out the paddock) when he rears, as we only have a four metre wide path to walk along, wooden fences along one side with horses, and the property boundary with barbed wire on the other. When I lead him there is only about half a metre either side of us, and when he throws himself around he is not afraid to crash into things. He is also not that fearful of a whip and if I smacked him with the whip while somehow still hanging on to him, he could strike out at me, and there is not much room for me to go. Also his wither is just above my head, so there is a big leg to avoid if it strikes out. He is kind of like an elephant - they're much better when they are not angry or afraid, else they will take down everything in their path.

Thankyou Tony for your considerate reply He is rearing and carrying on when we go past the left corner where there is one filly and a mare - I don't lead him past the right corner (the only other pathway) as that corner has one stallion and a very vocal colt. Last year at Spring the extent of his Spring jollies was to prance about when approaching this corner, but this year he has added rearing. Once in the yard or arena he does not act up when being lead past other horses. He is a difficult horse to get help with as his upbringing was unusual - not many trainers would help me with him (many refused based on his size and age)- I found one eventually though I am the only handler he has known, and compared to other horses I've owned and my snobby mare - he seems very bonded(?) When he hears my car approach he calls out; if I call out and he hears he will respond and run to the gate waiting for me. If I get distracted and take my time getting to him, he will walk through the fence and meet me at the hayshed. If he gets himself into trouble he will wait for me to fix it. Until I got him he just lived in the herd of horses he was born with at the CSL. I'm not sure if there is anyone around (until Thursday) who will be able to recreate (and possibly contend with) the situation for me. I will lunge him before I take him out the paddock today, and will lead him using the bridle. Hopefully it will abate soon. (I thought the 'damage' phase was over with last year. We took down a stable, nearly pulled down the wash bay and broke the barriers in the tie up area ) I will also measure his head and send you his sizing THANKYOU I remember that his browband measurement from when I had a bridle made for him was 49cm - will send you PM THANKYOU L:-)

Thanks Benji's Mum - I don't really want to get into a physical confrontation with this horse, what starts off as disrespectful play could turn very nasty if he moved to anger or fear. He is the type of horse that will do things for you if he trusts you and you ask firmly but nicely. I use a crop as an aid when riding, but would be reluctant to use it when he rears, as when he throws himself up or to the side, he is too strong for me to counter and correct by swinging him around or pulling the lead. If I was to smack his front legs he would just pull away. And if 1 tonne pulls away, you go with it or you let go. One farrier that saw him (sadly we have gone through a few ) wacked him under the belly when he moved, and the horse just got angrier and more afraid - and tossed the farrier through the air like a peanut.

Thanks Aphra yes i think it is a severe case of the Spring stupids last year he just pranced about, but this year has got even silllier. Will try lunging him before I take him out the paddock, see if that settles him a little thankyou L:-)

Thanks Cosmolo - I think I will look at getting a different halter made for him - fortunately all Horseland's stuff is too small I think the lady who made his bridle and rugs can make halters, will find out...

Thanks Choppa Chop, Well he has done it twice now, (not today as I won't be dealing with stinky until later this afternoon). Perhaps because I allow prancing while on lead - it escalated to rearing? A 'friendly bump' from this horse would knock me flying, but despite his size what makes him so easy to handle is his gentle and willing nature. He never barges past, even to get into his stall when I have placed his food down - when i am filling up his water he peers from behind my shoulder, if I say back be backs up, and in an enclosed space he will walk backwards rather than have his rear face me. He lowers his head so I can put on his halter, and when I dismount he follows me around. During his training the only amount of force that was used was to tie up his front foreleg to teach him he couldn't stamp it down when he wanted to. I have a leather halter that was made to fit him, the lunge rope is a strong nylone one - but perhaps it should be longer? Perhaps today I will lead him out with his bridle on, and maybe with the lunge rope to give me space if I need it. Or would that be a disaster? When working in lunge and when started in round yard, at the end of the lesson the horse would walk into the cirlce and come toward me. If he is not tied up in a stall he will walk and break through the barrier to follow me - even if someone else is riding him in the arena he looks out for my cues - if I call out 'whoa' he stops dead - much to my amusement but not my sisters

Thanks Erny - he is okay in the arena and didn't rear - the problem is I have to lead him out the paddock to get to the arena. I think it is a respect issue, and this is best worked on in the arena/round yard but the problem is I have to lead him from his paddock to get to the yard . . . Perhaps I should get a stronger halter than the nylon one I have? Or maybe I will just wait until thursday (but it peeves me that he has got this over me..) I hope i don't have to get any special lead halter/chain as all his head gear has to be made for him. What a pest *wonders about all the things I did to contribute to this situation*

oops forgot to add scenario: On Friday while leading my 8yo Percheron gelding (gelded late at 6) from his paddock, he started to prance about (that's okay its Spring, new grass etc) but then suddeny it progressed to rearing in front of me, a bit of bucking and another rear with shadow boxing. Now being a Percheron he is usually a gentle giant (17hh, weighs just over a tonne) but this rearing and cavorting around while being lead past other horses is not on and because he is so powerful it is very dangerous. He is doing this in play/excitement, but it is disrespectful for him to be doing this while I lead him. Staring up at my horses feet the size of dinner plates in the air, while he rears in front of me is not something I want to see again, nor do I want to have to drop the lead and run to get out of the way (yesterdays fun). Once I get him to the yard he is fine and while not on lead he has his usual unflappable and excellent ground manners. (I can put this horse's rugs on him in the middle of his paddock with a gale force wind blowing, or tack him up at night with a torch light no probs.) When in good spirits he will prance (like when he sees feed arrive in the morning) or if walking past a mare in Spring, but this rearing behaviour has taken me by surprise and I was wondering if anyone can give me some advice to deal with rearing while being led. I started this horse two years ago (unbroken) and have never been on the end of such behaviour before - even when he was being taught to lift his feet. He would kick out or stamp his foot down but never towards me. His worst behaviour and only vice, is striking out with his front feet when he has had enough of the farrier picking them up. However this horse never had his feet handled or any farrier exposure until he was 6 years old. He is now okay with his front feet being trimmed, back feet - depends on the day Any suggestions on what I can do to stop him rearing while being lead past other horses? NB: should aslo add that this horse has never reared when under saddle - when started his worst would be to shake his head around and do a bunny hop 20cm from the ground in frustration. Until friday, I didn't think this horse could get that hgh off the ground - he can be pig headed, but that is because nothing was ever asked of him unilt he was 6 yo.

The resident horse guru is away (until Thursday) and I was hoping for some advice in leading a horse that rears. Anyone about that I could present my scenario to?? thankyou ETA: scenario: On Friday while leading my 8yo Percheron gelding (gelded late at 6) from his paddock, he started to prance about (that's okay its Spring, new grass etc) but then suddeny it progressed to rearing in front of me, a bit of bucking and another rear with shadow boxing. Now being a Percheron he is usually a gentle giant (17hh, weighs just over a tonne) but this rearing and cavorting around while being lead past other horses is not on and because he is so powerful it is very dangerous. He is doing this in play/excitement, but it is disrespectful for him to be doing this while I lead him. Staring up at my horses feet the size of dinner plates in the air, while he rears in front of me is not something I want to see again, nor do I want to have to drop the lead and run to get out of the way (yesterdays fun). Once I get him to the yard he is fine and while not on lead he has his usual unflappable and excellent ground manners. (I can put this horse's rugs on him in the middle of his paddock with a gale force wind blowing.) When in good spirits he will prance (like when he sees feed arrive in the morning) or if walking past a mare in Spring, but this rearing behaviour has taken me by surprise and I was wondering if anyone can give me some advice to deal with rearing while being led. I started this horse two years ago (unbroken) and have never been on the end of such behaviour before - even when he was being taught to lift his feet. He would kick out or stamp his foot down but never towards me. His worst behaviour and only vice, is striking out with his front feet when he has had enough of the farrier picking them up. However this horse never had his feet handled or any farrier exposure until he was 6 years old. He is now okay with his front feet being trimmed, back feet - depends on the day Any suggestions on what I can do to stop him rearing while being lead past other horses?

Whether they remember each other or not litter mates re-introduced as adults will be dogs meeting as adults, not puppies - with adult ideas about territory, social status and moreover what they have learned about the world from their past/upbringing etc. Two rescue female CAOs sisters found their way to me at 3yo I owned their litterbrother. If there was any memory between them it was not evident. No happy families here - ultimately the most submissive female could coexist with the male - but it was more like a tense cease fire agreement - the most hostile to her brother's company, but more stable female, was able to be successfully rehomed on her own. NB: the most hostile female and the male, were close playmates as babies. Even if dogs do remember their litter mates, I think it is their lives and upbringing that followed a shared puppy hood which influences whether or not they will get along as adults, as opposed to any memory.

Training theory is that only and aspects from each school of thought shoud be used as tools to rearing / training a dog. The sole use of rewards and praise will not correct a dog really pushing the boundaries; in some aspects I regard the 'new age' aversion to correction, as a form of humanising dogs and an incomplete application of the 'benevolent leader' role. Yes a majority of aplha dogs lead benevolently and "do not need to stoop to physical domination to proove their points" but if their point is not taken, they will respond with a physical reprimand to ensure that it is. Maybe dogs are not bothered by 'violence' so much because unlike humans they are not plagued by it. RE: OP: Pack theory is important to me as my dogs are very pack orientated - as breeds they can also be predisposed to being dominant and aggressive. I don't enforce pack order between the dogs - that's up to them - a rank orientated dog however I will constantly consider how I interact with. I think once dogs are happy with their place in the scheme of things then it may not be obvious intially as to any particular order - I also think that how a dog views hierachy is influenced by its breeding/genetics. Re Aplha rolling: New dogs that I am unsure about, particularly a rank driven male, I ask to drop on command (dog rolls over on its own accord). If I have a dog that stares at me head on, dead calm and ignores what I ask - an Alpha roll will not address leadership or discipline issues. This dog is intelligent, self-assured and thinks it outranks me - I am not going to show it is wrong by force - I will lose. (I'm outweighed and overpowered )

Apply flock guardian bird training When your new pup arrives, take he/she out with you when you feed the birds. Observe the dogs behaviour. Calm demeanour and ignoring the birds is praised ('calm' at baby puppy age also includes behaviour where the pup does not notice the birds because it is playing with a flower etc - the pup is still praised for 'ignoring' the birds, as we want to instill in the pup that the birds are a 'non event'.) Over excitement barking and running up to the birds is reprimanded with a firm "NO". Any pause in unwanted behaviour is met with praise. From Day 1, take the pup with you when you feed the birds. Keep the pup on a lead while you feed the birds during the learning process, as this allows you to quickly respond to any unwanted behaviour ie: chasing. Also you don't want the pup to take off after the birds and then you to take off after the pup, as this will encourage the pup to keep playing this new fun game B2 and friends

Great post shmoo Rescue has so many different facets some are community based others operate within a breed or club network - DOL is just one of many rescue communication hubs and resource sharing platforms.

Ignore the ones who know nothing Choppa Chop Sometimes carer is a heavy burden, and to do the right thing you must do what is the hardest and most painful for you, but best for the dog God bless, and trust that you did the right thing.

That's interesting - I thought if you had boys and a girl, the girl would always wind up as highest ranked. Is that just another myth? In general I think it depends on the personality of individual dogs. Generally - I have found the male to be the ultimate quiet overlord although for the past year a very alpha female has ruled the roost.

L&L I am not a trainer but I do advise potential homes of my dogs - particularly the Anatolians NOT to play games of tug of war with them. This is taking into account temperament lines of the dogs - and some are very dominant - not just unruly adolescents, but individuals with a psychlogical ascendancy that does not need the aid of a game (which they really are not that interested in anyway) of tug of war. Someone who knows what they are doing - yes fine. Family with kids - nope. :rolleyes:

I treat mine all the same that said, the pack order amongst the dogs is never far from my mind and is always a consideration. My actions do not affect the pack order amongst the dogs Rather my actions - given the order system that has been worked out between the dogs for themselves - can cause altercations if I don't think about what I am doing, and what dogs is where etc. My dogs are each fed seperately.

Yes LGDs must differentiate from the wolf in their defence reaction as they were selected by man over 1000s of years to outthink, overpower - to defend against and succesfully combat with wolves. So maybe they had to be able to think like their enemy, to overcome them? Central Asians are referred to as "volkodav" - wolf strangler

I don't know how wary of humans when mature or the difficulty of socialising a true wolf is but the Caucasian is a domestic dog (normal but definitely not the usual ?) that is very dominant, territorial, independent and aloof - and was selected for these traits - definitley a breed that needs very careful, knowledgeable owners who understand exactly what the dog's capabilities are. Very sharp and dominant, their aggression towards people and other dogs into their territory (or sense of territorial personal space) makes them a difficult dog to socialise and unsuitable for most homes