BJean

and how do you think you establish that? The threat is very real. Try and supersede the dog - get it to do what it does not want to do and it will punish you the way it would punish a lower ranking dog. The only person of relevance and worth adhering to (according to the dog), is its primary handler - the rest of the family don't matter. It'd be acceptable for a male ASD to behave as above, but not a CAO. By 'acceptable' I mean not unsusual for a typical male. Incidentally 99% of male ASDs that need to be rehomed, need rehoming or removal because of this trait. CAO in comparison should never actively challenge its family as an adult. Trainers who do not think that 1000s of years working alongside man as oppsed to 'for man', makes a difference to a dogs psyche and the way it views people are mistaken. No its breed and mental make up play an important role - we're not fussed what its colour is. Rachelle, you also may need to consider training a dog that is quite different mentally to a GSD. That's great theory Rachelle but it has little merit in practise. Firstly you need to know WHAT you should fix and then IF it can be fixed. In fact that arrogant ethos - where "armed with all the theory you need" breed is irrelevant, is a common mistake. Quite simply it will not succeed. I am laughing for the arrogance and naivity. Right - okay call the professional - what if they don't know the breed - how accurate will their 'advice' be? How will they know what is normal for the dog? Is it unstable, or just the wrong home/handler for this particular tempered dog? Is the dog a lunatic or a bloody brilliant working dog in the wrong home?

Rachelle, eg 1: you have a female dog - which you know very well, but it is very dog aggressive. The level of dog aggression is intense. Dog is well socialised, great with people, confident and not fear aggressive. has no prey drive. Pack orientated. eg 2: You own a male dog - your previous dogs have been GSDs and Dobes - you are a competent dog handler but the dog is exhibiting aggression towards your famiy (partner and children) who the dog has grown up with. Has no prey drive, pack orientated. Does it matter what breed of dog the above are? So you know what the dogs like and don't like - what if you are missing something? what if what you 'know' about your dog is wrong. Most breed issues are because people incorrectly 'know' their dog and what it values. How do you go about training a dog when your fundamental understanding of what and why your dog is, is wrong? Is the dog misbehaving by not dropping or sitting? How soon should you expect a response to your command?

Dog aggression is a breed issue. Strong rank drive and dominance is a breed isssue. handler/training issues need to be addressed in light of the breed of dog. If you don't understand the dog, your training recommendations are not going to be effective or (in some cases) relevant. You are not going to untrain some dogs out of dog aggression, nor others out of a strong rank driven outlook where they exhibit aggression towards people. Unless you know what behaviour a breed is likely to exhibit you will not know what is normal (or acceptable). ie: which of the following is unusual behaviour and where should training/rehoming be attempted: ASD male aggressive towards children of household CAO male aggressive towards children of household? female ASD highly dog aggressive female CAO highly dog aggressive? Noone gives a total assessment over a forum, what is given, is general advice - a likelihood of what is probably wrong. And believe it or not, ASD and CAOs can be rather predictable when it comes to typical 'problem behaviour' experienced by those seeking advice. Further, most after receiving forum advice that points them in the right direction, then carry on with one-to-one advice. Never was it mentioned that breed advice was dispensed in on-line format only. I absolutely disagree with that. I know people who have owned several dogs of the same breed yet they now nothing about the breed population in Au, the temperaments of contributing dogs, and maybe they have raised them, but it doesnt mean they have done it in the best way. I believe that an "overview" is not good enough information to work with. Rachelle, the above was all inclusive. ie: owned multiple dogs AND good grasp of breed population AND temperaments etc Without some knowledge of the ASD and CAO breeds in Australia, anybody giving advice as to their training, in any format, does not have enough information to work with. Hence they ask the question No, that is not true. I have read plenty of advice given in this forum... many times people jump to one conclusion because of their past experience. Not long ago, i would have done the same thing. And yes there ARE big problems in giving training advice over a forum to a person with a fear aggressive dog or a rank aggressive dog. Huge problems. You can make the dog worse, you can put yourself and others in danger, or you might hit the jackpot and get it right. Rachelle I said "no big problems", from someone giving advice who knew the breed and its training well. Keep in mind that this 'breed advice is irrelevant' tangent stemmed from your assertion that: And I responded, saying your assertion was incorrect and that when it came to ASD and CAO - understanding them as a breed is the first step to successfully training them. Hence, why breed advice was/is relevant

That's because you are not familar with certain lines of Anatolian and Central Asian. There are some common 'unwanted behaviours' that are not going to be untrained out of them. Problems arise because people think they can. Which is a dog's drives, not their breed. A prey high drive dog can appear regardless of breed. A low drive dog can appear regardless of breed. It would be silly to give a prey drive program to someone with a BC just because it is a BC... when their particular dog might have absolutely no prey drive or high rank drive which needs to be dealt with first. Whatever terminology you want to use: mindset, outlook, psyche, drives - this is breed related. Breed advice does not equate to dispensing a 'drive program' based on breed alone, but it does mean knowing what drives are at play, and probable reasoning/outcomes of the situation. Okay this is where i am having a problem, this part is a bit dangerous IMO...just because i own a GSD it does not make me a GSD trainer/behaviorist. The problem with that mindset (to me) is if someone comes to me abuout their GSD, I will have a clouded view because of my preconceived ideas about what a GSD should/should not be. Hence my advice coulld also be clouded. I'd imagine that someone offering breed advice would have owned more than one of their said breed, and have a pretty good grasp of the breed population in Australia, temperaments of contributing dogs, and experience handling them at and from different ages. What you see as a "clouded view" I regard as an OVERVIEW. Yep and if someone had experience in a spectrum of causes for the above described behaviour, they'd be aware of the contributing possibilites and the myriad of ways each drive related owner/dog issue could manifest. Someone offering breed adivce on BCs would be well aware that either scenario could be a possibilty, so no big problems.

Yes training and behavioural problems can apply to any breed but some 'problem' behaviours can be quite normal in some breeds - and although an issue of training to manage, often environment and handler is important. If a trainer does not know what is 'normal' for a breed they may be essentially pushing s*** uphill, when it comes to trying to modify the dog's behaviour and also may not see the mismatch of handler/environment (if it exists). SO I think breed specific advice is useful, because quite frankly - if you haven't been exposed to it, you don't know. And just as breed specific physical structure can affect training, so can mental structure (if that is even a term :rolleyes:). All training and behavioural problems can apply to any breed, but breed is important because it can indicate what is normal or abnormal behaviour. And though a professional behaviouralist/trainer (with no breed knowledge of the dog) is able to pinpoint what is the problem between a handler and dog - someone familiar with the breed is generally able to ascertain the why, and provide management options for the behaviour.

Yep me too peibe *only because* often professional advice is hard to seek with my breeds and often those seeking advice, are nearing a point where a person with first hand breed experience, is needed to assist on some level. (Disasterous case in point: where a Melbourne obedience instructor, decided to make an in-front-of-class example of a male Anatolian who would not sit - the dog 'trainer' did not win.) The same dog was successuflly rehomed to an experienced home interstate but on the way "missed all possible flights for the day" and required "3 professional dog handlers" to get him into the crate only for the dog to get himself out. Err Anatolian owners, I wouldn't fly Jetpets for a while :D

SpikesPuppy and Cazablanca, the pup may not be overly dominant - and just may be an intelligent puppy responding to a lack of clear leadership.

newfnewf just as an aside: some breeders do not know how to pick a dominant puppy but MOREOVER sometimes a pup responds to its environment and 'ascends itself' so to speak (ie: if you are not particularly clear about being leader, your middle-of-the-road pup will exhibit dominant behaviour.) Dominant behaviour can be exhibited whenever there is no clear leadership - just because your pup is behaving the way you describe, it doesn't necessarily follow that your pup is actually very dominant by nature.

Probably a bit of both. I have three entire males and two females atm - being large terrotrial and pack orientated dogs - a potential slip-up by a visitor - such as letting two dogs into the house or feeding one while in front of the other - will result in a tense scenario and likely serious dog fight. Most multiple dog households either buy two same sex pups (often females) or similar aged dogs together or have one dog and then add the opposite sex later. My two youngest males are close in age (and no surprise are worst enemies) but the biggest rift btween my dogs is between a 3yo bitch and a 10yo dog. The same 10yo male runs with a 6 month old male - but the same 6 month old male cannot run with the 10month old male. Nor would I trust the 10month old male to run with the 4yo female. A common misconception is that female dogs are less inclined to fight and that males and females are the best combination to have in a multi dog household, but I don't agree. I think the only consideration should be temperament (dominant/rank driven) and personality of each dog (and then age), not their sex. Also most people (visitors) think that if two dogs get along, then they will never fight. The dogs will never fight while everything is in order - but upset that balance (through distribution of food or perceived privilidges) - and order will be restored through some form of altercation. I don't think every mutliple dog household needs to be as segregated as mine (breed(s) and number of dogs coming into play here), but I do think they need to understand why their dogs get along for 'now' and what can cause this to change.

newfnewf - my dogs I have now aren't newfs but I can tell you that NEVER have I known a 'hands off' method to work with a dominant giant size dog. If you are not naturally asertive, a hands of method can land you in more trouble. Okay one of my boys Brasco, is 7 months old and weighs about 50kg - if I only used hands off with a determined, stubborn dog I'd have a nipping playing pup also. See they know their own strength - they feel that when they run into you and your body shifts its weight, gives a little etc. Ever seen a male pup run up to an adult dog and bark and jump on it? No they approach with their head bowed, curve their topline and often submissively urinate. That's because if your male pup did that to an adult newf or anatolian etc quite simply he would cop it. The adult dog would take such an approach, as an act of disrespect or challenge and would put the upstart immediately in its place - pups are subservient to adults no ifs or buts. If you want your pup to do something he doesn't want to do (like get in the car or out from undernesth the table) what does your pup do? newfnewf a high pitched sound is the wrong noise to make as it will excite your pup and encourgae him to play! ;) Nekhbet is spot on

I just accept it as a normal part of my dogs' behaviour. I try to ensure only complimentary dogs run together, and am constantly montioring how they all are getting along. Occassionally I get too relaxed in the status quo and 'forget a fundamental' and make a stupid mistake causing problems between the dogs. (Like two days ago I can't believe I did something soooo dumb. But ironicially the more peacefully your dogs co-exist, the more comfortable you become and 'tis easy to forget... ) But for the most part, I know which of my dogs can go where and with whom and can generally tell what they are about to do. One good thing to come from having contended with a few domestics and ongoing grieviances over the years, is that I am generally very good at pre-empting and preventing them and have no time for nonsense behaviour. Really, once you get over your intial guilt, shock and scare, your new routine and perspective just becomes normal. ETA: My friends with their 'fur kid' lap dogs think I am too strict with my dogs, and don't undertsand because they have never had to deal with a serious dog fight and its aftermath. (I won't let visitors eat in front of (or feed) one dog when their are dogs running together; a dog is only allowed inside if every other dog is out, no patting a dog unless there is no other dog around etc) Better visitors go home with the idea that I'm crazy, than to leave traumatised :D

newfnewf it sounds as if you have a bolshy newf Aeons ago we were owned by a bolshy male newf - yes they can be gentle giants but a male newf full of himself can be quite a determined handful - and this 'naughty' nipping (or mozzie bites as we used to call them) is really the actions of a cheeky pup pushing his boundaries. If your pup was to jump up on and play-nip a more dominant dog, he would be met with a sharp reprimand and would not do it again. Your pup throws his weight around and dictates play because he can - he reads like a confident youngster who is not convinced that his future place in the hierachy isn't head of the house. If he is prone to becoming more animated when reprimanded - try ignoring the mouthing/jumping behaviour and then make a fuss of him when he eventually sits or stands calmly. Playing up when reprimanded can be a way for the pup to distract your lesson; thereby successfully avoiding doing what you want him to do.

Are you sure the dog is associating the 'missing air kong' with the unwanted behaviour? okay, so you started training at 8 weeks - when did problems begin necessitating the intervention of a behaviouralist?

Carp, it sounds like your sheltie girl is running rings around you IMO and independent natured dog is not really going to care if you 'withdraw' something it likes. What if the enjoyment derived from doing 'wrong' things, is more than the enjoyment derived from the air kong? Doing what she likes (inlcuding nipping you to put you in your place) will win every time.

IMO dominant bitches make great show girls because of their bravado, and will often prance in the ring and have the 'look at me' presence of the males. It reads as if the two if you are not the best match personality wise. I don't know how independent/dominant shelties get but generally the bidability of a dominant and independent dog depends upon its relationship with its handler/owner. At only 6 months of age, to have a final diagnosis of "significant dominance aggression" sounds a little premature. How long has she had issues? If this pup were one of mine, from the provided information I WOULD TAKE HER BACK under the two assumptions: Either: the dog has a neurological problem or the dog has not been raised in a way that suits the dog's outlook. In any case, I think your dog would benefit from going back to her breeder

Really I think any club who only presrcibes one approach over the other is less than ideal. However, you seemed to not want to use a check chain from the outset. Have you previously used a check chain with little success on your 6mo GSD before? i guess I am saying that what one *wants* for their dog, might not necesarily be the best thing for it

g&w desexing does not take away a dog's underlying temperment - it will alter it in some ways, but not so to make a dominant dog submissive or more accepting of other dogs - or to have any bearing on how a dog will still sort out 'dog business'. At the intial meeting at the pound, there was nothing to fight over really. However now at home, there is territory and rank to be sorted out, who has right of way where - basically both dogs have to negotiate the 'rules' of their new living arrnagements. You can't have order unless you have structure, and eventhough it may not appear to be there - I believe there is a reason for the way dogs do what they do in their day, even if it no more than 'organised chaos'. Whether the two male dogs can 'live and let live' depends much on the two dog's personalities and how they interrelate. If there is livid unacceptance and no room for compromise, they probably won't get along and will have to remain seperated everafter. HOWEVER with males, I have found that if they really hate each other, and would rather die to proove a point than coexist, that this intense dislike between 'strangers' is immediately apparent - irrespective of where the dog is ie: at home, at the pound, in the bush etc. Can the two dogs be around each other without snarling and then getting into a fight? If so, there is hope that they can coexist. Personally I don't believe people can effectively influence the pack dynamics between their dogs. If you have a dog that is determined to outrank another, IMO it causes more damage to meddle in their business.

Generally it is hard to get a LGD to drop in a crowd, as it is not a position where they can be alert and be 'on the lookout' so to speak; plus the submissive nature of the drop - to drop the dog has to be at ease in its surroundings. Sometimes dropping is a protest, or their way of avoiding what you are asking of them. Once they become familiar with their surroundings, and the comings and going of the group training, they will focus better over time. If there is something in the far paddock that requires the dog's attention, perhaps before class the dog could be walked through the other paddocks and allowed time to investigate / patrol and ensure that all is okay. It could be another dog in the juxtapose paddock that has also got its attention. Important is age of the dog and how long it has been with its handler. Are they sure it is a LGDx - what is its supposed mix? MV: thanks for the kind words - glad that my ramblings were of some help

Thanks everyone will speak to the owner and hopefully with some help all will be happily resolved

Thanks qute but I don't think the owner will seek a behaviourist on their own. But if I offer them contact details for one I think they will be more inclined to call. They don't have to be a 'professional behaviourist' even a 'capable dog person' with years of experience managing and rearing dogs. The diffulty is that I don't think they see their situation as needing attention or professional advice. Whereas Im concerned if the pup keeps going as it has (there has been little issues since 12 weeks) then in a few months there will be a serious incident with little or no recourse for the dog.

A family with one of my pups are in need of a behaviourist / capable trainer handler. IMO the pup (5 months) may be running amock a bit too much, and if I can suggest a name or names for this family to ring that will be great. (Didn't want to hijack the katekate thread ;) ) I am concerned about the way the situation seems to be developing and am caught between expressing concern and constructive criticism, and not wanting to 'push' the owner away. I feel if a behaviourist could see how the owner and dog relate and offer objectiuve advice this will enure a happy future and not an unhappy one (which I forsee atm). The pup has nipped two children while chasing them and my interpretation thus far is that his behaviour is just being regarded as rough play, or the dog being wilfull and nothing 'serious'. He has also shouldered down one of their sheep - and from what i can gather the pup is throwing his weight around and maybe receiving inconsistent correction. The pup is willfull, assertive, confident and very intelligent. I am looking for a behaviourist that does not prescribe to only one set of training methods (ie positive training.). Nothing against positive training but I think this pup is too strong tempered for a rewards only based program ETA: the pup is now approx 40 kgs so him playing chase and running down children and other animals is a big no no.

Wednesday, from what I have read, the circumstance surrounding the need for this bullmastiff to be rehomed are very similar to an Anatolian AR are rehoming at the moment (although the ASD has only growled at a child, not attempted to bite). In any case finding a suitable home is not impossible, it just takes a lot longer. Perhaps if rehoming is decided upon, you could list the BM on Petrescue?

The person could read up on the theory, but in my opinion, learning how to read dogs behaviour without being familiar wth / living with or owning a dog, is akin to 'learning' how to ride a horse, without actually doing it. ie: could get a text and read away, but unless you have experience in picking up cues, and responding in turn, all you have in your head is pictures of diagrams or paragraphs desribing theory, but no actual working understanding. That said, as part of the process in beginning to learn about 'reading' dogs, I would recommend some basic 101 reading material ie: http://www.dogwise.com/Item_Inside.cfm?ID=...&curImage=3 "DOG LANGUAGE: AN ENCYCLOPEDIA OF CANINE BEHAVIOR" by Roger Avantes Most of what I have learned about my dogs and their behaviour is through experience - in particular getting through a difficullt or challenging situation. IMO theory doesn't 'sink in' until you have some practical experience of your own to draw upon. Certainly reading resources provide an essential backdrop to begin to form a perspective from, but real life feedback and interaction with the focus of your subject matter is essential

moved to training question

The vet was trying to administer an injection. being an ex CSL horse (serum horse used to produce snake anit-venom), he is distrustful of men he does not know, vet equipment in particular. And once he works out there is something to do with injections going on, he is not happy. Eventually the vet was successful (I got the horse to lower his head while the vet applied the twitch) When he first arrived, he didn't respect fences that much, nor did he feel secure. He also had never been taught to stand and wait etc so really he was only doing what he knew to do. When it was very dry over summer and the electric fences were not working, he would just push through and meet me at the hayshed if I took too long (and broke our routine) :rolleyes: But he just strolled up and met me (almost died of shock when he first did, not funny to turn around and bump into big doofas ) and then followed me back to his paddock. Primarily most of what he did wrong was because he didn't know. Although 6yo, he was like a youngster in the mind, because he had never known the world outside the herd he ran with on the old CSL grounds. He was easily forgiveable bcz once out, he didn't hoon around, just walked innocently about as if that was the done thing. There really is nothing you can gain (or do) from trying to forcefully restrain a horse of his weight and strength, that is acting out of fear. If he was acting out AND knew better that would be different, but the trainer told me to treat him like a youngster and just have heaps of patience and earn his trust. He was very easy to worm at first (didn't know what the paste was) approached eacgerly thinking it was food, and then - yuk! Not so easy for me next time though