BJean

what's the difference between great barko and uncle albers? i sometimes get unlce albers at the feed store for when i run our of meat/bones/cut offs etc and apart from unlce albers having slightly more (think its 2%) protein than great barko what's the difference between them, - they're the same price and made by same manufacturer?

More Anatolian: ANADOLU COMARKAAN IKTIDARLI KORUMAK KLASIKKARS SIVIRI

Yes and it would become indifferent to passing cars if passing cars were frequent - at same distance / speed. ie: on one property on Western Hwy (west Vic) the dogs ignore the 1000s (?) of trucks that pass each day but should a truck / car slow and divert from 'what is normal' then this will get the dog's attention. I doubt that I explain properly corvus, but I try anyway When I refer to the described neutralisation: I prefer to neutralise my dogs to everything accept me & what I can give the dog. So that is me, my affection, praise, pats, prey items & food that my dog finds valueable, not anything else. I think good LGD should value and needs to value other things, not just what comes from the owner - but anyway as I said I think neutralisation is good for trainiing goal as indicated in this thread but imo it would be counter producitve to LGD's goal and temperament. I dont want my dogs tossing up if they would rather come to me or go play with another dog. This opens up a huge can of worms when it comes to dog parks, meeting friends & letting your dogs play etc. See if I call my dog inside and they turn around and ignore me and run towards the back paddock, I like that - they need to be able to do that - to put what I want on pause until fox/stray/something(?) in paddock is removed / gone. likewise if there is a big raucous at 3am and I call them inside but they refuse and raucous go on and on I call and still they ignore me (other dogs are quiet why they go crazy in the dam paddock???) so I get up angry what's going on out there - and I find foal seperated from its mother in distress and caught up in the fencing - had the dogs valued only what comes from me and recalled to the house obediently when I called them, then I would not have known the foal was in danger. The dogs here are not barking to protect the foal, but the foal by being on the wrong side of the fence, was breaking the 'order' / routine that the dogs value - to them most things seem to have their time / place - the foal in the fence disrupted this, hence the carry on over the disruption.

K9: Thats dependant, you seem to be reading that it removes instincts, when nothing removes instinct. Say you had a LGD with very high prey drive, wanted to chase & down every Lamb it laid eyes on? Not productive either. I am reading that if instinct is to go out and assess situations and act on its own voilition - and that is relied upon - then to redirect that on to a person is counter productive for the dogs purpose. If the dog is neutral to outside stiumulus, then the dog is counter productive, bcz it the dog's action upon that stimulus with no human overseer which is valued. I think a LGD with high prey drive is about as useful in working capacity as a GSD with no nerve? Yes both are not producitve, as I said, purpose of dog matters. K9: You need to understand the value of zero compared to an unsociable dog. K9: I never train dogs by breed, but by goal & temperament. The GSD's that we get to work as Patrol dogs can not focus on the handler, yet are neutralised. I think also it is important to undersatnd existence of unsocial dogs, and why many atypical ASD and CAO are typically 'unsociable'. If I take goal - to make reliable response dog with temperament of atypical specimen then the two will not ideally intertwine - unless owner live in rural area but in suburban setting will not work because of high defence, territory and aggression.

K9: the best trainer in the world sets up everything, he or she is active, not reactive. If you found yourself in thats situation I would correct the dog away & reward for leaving. If I may attempt a suitable answer :- Many unwanted behaviours exhibited by dogs are actually "normal" in the wild and, in the wild, would not be seen as a "problem behaviour". Most problem behaviours exhibited these days are only "problems" due to our own domestic requirements and social standards. Therefore, I doubt that a "neutralisation" program such as K9 describes would be necessary in the wild. Hence, it would IMO be inappropriate to draw comparison between pups in a wild dog pack to those required to live in our domesticated environments. Neutralisation is a programmatic method that can be used to chanel and mould a dog's instinctive behaviour and goals into a behaviour more suitable for domestic life situations. interesting discussion / concept / strategy wrt neutralisation like Nat/Tess32 others have said - i think neutralisation depends on the purpose of the dog - if I have a dog and its purpose is to act on its instincts - and it is these instincts which guide it then neutralisation and stock guardian dog will be counter productive - I think with some strong tempered LGD individuals (atypical) neutralisation could produce opposite of "suitability for domestic life situations". BUT if I had dog whose focus I wanted on me all the time, like GSD, Rotti, Lab then neutralisation seems like logical / necessary training ethos for absolute reliabilty.

Sway, Allerzeit and the sweat shop you have done a great job! A few more: Central Asian ATABRAI Anatolian AUSTURK BERDINA BOULIAKID BULLMONARCH CAPPADOCIA COBANKOPEGI COMARKAAN CORDANNAO COTTELLI GLENBANK HAYSIYET HILLSBOROUGH IRADENE KARABASH KAPLICA KORUYUCU NIVRI NILIAMONGUP ROBINHILL RURALSENTRY STOCKWATCH TAYSY Kangal KARETAKER Also, prefix TAKAS is for Anatolian and Kangal, not Central Asian. Thankyou

can you hot wire the fence? A line of hot tape a foot out from the fence stop dogs jumping.

bcz +ve training is supposed to work for all dogs. its the intelligent, more advanced, training technique - corrrections are bad, they in fact manifest the unwanted behaviour. the theory of dominance is bunk and irrelevant - physical correction of your dog is backward and cruel. so either I am wrong with my choke chain, or +ve training espousal should be edited - like all training techniques' ethos - +ve training doesn't suit all dogs, just some. i probably haven't given +ve training a go, I've let breed dictate how / what my dog can and can't do - this is what I hear if I say reward based training isn't effective on some of my dogs. I can't see how the +ve training ethos explains my dogs' behjaviour - but maybe a +ve expert can.

Thanks Tony, I didn't think it was although perhaps that what happens to all the dogs that don't fit the norm - they dumb down their instincts with medication... the person comes very highly recommended and much experience working with aggression - they are aware of the dog's breed - but apparently breed is not so important. i'm very sceptical - but i don't like the +ve brandish (not upheld by all +ve trainers), that it suits all dogs and using corrections are cruel, damaging the relationship between dog and owner: +ve training is the modern advanced intelligent technique, use of choke chains is antiquated and uncouth. nb: my dogs will not be receiving any medication - they are normal for their breed.

as part of my positive training experiment i have found a vet. behaviourist for two of my dogs i want to see if positive training works (i think it won't here, but i want to see how we go and the ethos, management systems behind it.) if my dogs are 'domesticated' and what i think about their instincts are wrong, I want a positive trainer to proove it with my dogs. in my trainer's 'positive only' world, choker chains are out and its flat collar or halti. (i'm opting for thick flat collar as i dont want dead dogs bcz a trainer was so sure about the ability of a dog to 'not pull' in a halti.) anyway i explain the two dogs, and one of the things mentioned is medication apparently my dogs are upset which is why they are aggro. that doesn't sound right to me, why would the two most confident, outgoing of my dogs be upset? why is a mental disorder, more plausible than rank dominance? or strong sense of territory? (makes note to self to ask trainer) anyway, i was wondering, how common is the administering of medication with DA dogs?

if the boerboel is a natural breed, then it won't 'over exercise' itself - ie: they will not hurt themselves by running / walking / playing at their own leisure - it is good for them. i would allow them to do whatever they do on their own accord. if the pup gets tired she will sleep

yep read previous posts and realised you had a GR GRs can be very very active dogs - self-control is hard when the dog has a lot of energy it needs to expend. did you pick the puppy yourself, or did the breeder choose him for you? an active GR will probably never really be 'mellow'.

incredijack, you have a jack russell terrier? no you have a golden retriever? where do you live - suburban, rural - if the dog is always 'on' maybe you need to take the dog back to the breeder and get a dog more suited to your family's energy levels? with young children and super puppy, you must be exhausted

:nahnah: lol thought of that, get me at a wrung out moment, and i've considered the permanent kind i don't think small enclosures are practical, as i can't put other animals in as well - paddocks are the best option with dog proof fencing certain DA I don't think training / behaviour modification can remove, sometimes DA is part of the whole package - her genes were wired with the right fuses - she just a kazakhstani tsarina. ETA: woops thanks - realised the orignal solution - ASD's girl stay is now strictly short term

thanks wobbly we have physical seperation at the moment - but unless i had cyclone fencing and concrete floors et al (as oppsed to paddocks) i wont leave both outside at the same time. lol have decided that the ASD's stay is not going to be for much longer

Thanks Shell I should probably point out that I don't expect the DA to be changed, but am looking for ways for it to be less intense. So travelling to a behaviourist would be wasted, as I think anything effective can only be done working with the dogs in their environment Another dog of mine is DA and doesn't like another young resident male, but they can coexist on the property in their seperate areas outside. Of course if they got near each other, it would be death or serious maim, but one is not obsessed with the other. They might have a growl through the fence line, but one won't then decide to dig a good 2 - 3 metres underground just to actually get to the other dog. Or try to climb through windows - the alpha girl is very intelligent and uses all her analysing skills to look for possible weak points in the obstacles that prevent her from getting to the ASD.

I think this has something to do with where the dog is in her estrous cycle when she is desexed? not so much to do with being in cycle when she is desexed, but the removal of cyclling itself from already DA bitches. So the decrease in estrogen - which can be a pacifier in some bitches. ie: the absense of varying estrogen, progesterone actually makes the bitches more DA. Desexing is not 'changing' their temp, but removing the cycling - therefore hormone pattern - can intensify it.

I have a 4yo alpha CAO bitch (generally DA) intent on removing another ASD bitch of mine. The ASD bitch was only a temporary guest, but it looks as if she will stay for a few more months - I'm not sure when her owners can take her back. I can seperate them, but bcz the conflict is so intense, very tiring The CAO bitch is intent on getting to the ASD bitch, to probably kill her. i have put barbed wire atop of mesh fencing to remove the idea of fence climbing. I have no expectations or illusuions that they can ever be remotely together, but would like to know if any behaviourists successful with DA can perhaps provide something, to reduce the intensity of intolerance. I can't think of anything, but you only see your dogs through familiar eyes. I'm in east vic.

sometimes - depending on the motivator - desexing already DA female dogs, actually makes them worse

you must have been just round the corner from me but i agree - it adversely affects the landscape - interesting about the vet - sending you a PM ......... kap do you work there or have a vested interest in promoting woofpurnay?

Protexin will also help settle the gut i use it with over gorged baby puppies and find it works very well.

this will sound a tad awful but when my stiff pup was in one of its wooden phases i actually placed it on its paws on the table to see it would stand like an ornament but his front paws were at the wrong angle so he fell over. remained stiff in fallen position for another 10 / 20 seconds and then transformed back to a 'normal' pup. this morning the puppies' outlook appeared more promising. all are getting .2mL of demotix intermittently (max 2mL / 24hours) male1 is nursing again but still receiving drop of glucose four times a day. puppies are now four days old.

bumping this back up as i lost one of my male pups at three days old to this stiff puppy phenomenom. any other occurences? tube feeding another pup who showed similar pre-stiff symptoms - will add in my account of stiff puppy when less tired.

i *think* where the dog has one hip xrayed and assessed as HD and the other hip is normal it suggest the HD is the result injury/environment rather than genetic HD. (not sure if genetic is the right word as there is always a genetic component... hmm not thinking well today...) think 'hereditary' could be a better word.

one of difficulties i have with objectively reading these types of training packages is that i feel i am being sold a franchise.