BJean

Did you send Jenna's hip xrays to PennHip to have an 'official' score? What is the average for Jenna's breed(s)?

teekay and Baker Girl, do you go to the same vet? teekay I'm glad that jenna is okay But given she showed no symptoms and the operation was done based on 'probable' breeding I am not sure whether you can regard it as 'JPS success'. Not to mention that it is very easy to 'fix' something that isn't there. I dont want to sound mean or anything else :D and Im glad for you that Jenna is okay but from what you have written about Jenna diagnosis and pre-op information I dont believe it is 'good' vet practise to operate on patient's dogs based on what 'might' happen. Firstly, yes, this procedure was first mentioned when I took Jenna in for her vaccinations at 12 weeks but there was no pressure and I had decided not to go ahead with any further hip investigations or JPS. They did talk about the time limit for such a procedure and actually told me it had to be done by 16 weeks. No they did not want to book me in there and then and it was left as a open invitation if I wanted to proceed. As I said, I decided not to bother. THEN I had a bombshell dropped on me on 15 Sept. On another forum someone posted about a dog (same crossbreed as mine) they had bought from a pet shop in Melbourne which had been diagnosed with HD at 7.5 months. They also believe another dog of the same breed from the same pet shop had had a complete hip replacement at 1.5 years. Given the relative rarity of my crossbreed I made enquiries about where her pup could originally have come from. There is no conclusive evidence but it is looking highly likely they came from the same place. Jenna, at this point was 17 weeks old. I thought she was too old for the JPS at this point but I did some research on the internet and most places said you could do it up to 20 weeks, after which the benefits were negligible. Sadly I lost my adorable Labrador in April of this year but still had the business card of the specialist vet that was treating her so I gave them a call and Richard Mitchell told me he would see us (with a referral from our original vet). The rest is pretty much history. DI not good and probable genetic history resulting in recommendation to go ahead and do the JPS. I think the problem I faced was not being able to find ANYONE who had had this done to their pup so I couldn't talk to anyone about how their pup faired. From the internet research I did, the results seemed promising but obviously it is early days. I still look at Jenna and ask myself if I have done the right thing. She was fine and might have continued that way. OR she may have been diagnosed a few months down the track and I would feel awful that I didn't take the opportunity when I had it.

Thanks for the above. The quote above regarding QLD expert, is that in the same article? I'm trying to find comments in relation to the JPS but can't seem to locate it. Like you said, depending on your sources, I've read the optimal age anywhere from 16-22 weeks but generally before 20 weeks. Exactly, so pretty big operation to put your puppy through when there are so many unknowns and disputed facts about JPS. Also understand that your pups Xrays will show a PROPENSITY TO DEVELOP Hip Dysplacia not whether he has HD.

From Australia and from QLD: Improvements in conformation are significantly greater when the procedure is completed by 15 weeks of age vs. 20 weeks. So according to this expert in QLD, your pup has already passed the optimal time window for JPS. http://www.theveterinarian.com.au/clinical.../article625.asp

Not percentages, but how many operations has he carried out? What does 'personally very high' mean? It means nothing if the operations were all carried out within the past year or two. The key word is 'degenerative' and that takes time. Moreover, because JPS is done on puppies who do not yet actually have hip dysplasia, it is hard to evaluate success. Something to think about. Your puppy does not have HD. The xrays will show its propensity, but on a juvenile that's is NOT Hip Displaysia And again, your vet needs to send the xrays o/s to be assessed for PennHipp so why the Op at the same time? Here is a discussion amongst lab breeders and owners on JPS: http://www.lab-retriever.net/board/juvenil...s-t7294412.html NB: Depending on your sources, your puppy has already past the time window for JPS some cite the cut off age at 16 and 18 weeks.

Are you doing pennhip xrays or AVA/Wyburn? Is he a specialist in assessing Hip Xrays? PennHipp xrays need to be sent o/s for assessment.

Have you asked your vet? What is his/her success rate? How many operation have they performed and what follow up has been recorded on the dogs? What does your vet think of your pups shortened tail? What does cruciate ops on your sisters Rotti have to do with your pups hips? It gave the example of my Sister's dog with cruciate ligament damage and now the constant management she has to do with him and his quality of life as I was trying to explain that this is a scenario I would love to avoid if at all possible. If I could try and alleviate some of the discomfort and damage of HD at an early age this would be ideal. That's all. How often has your vet carried out the operation? What is their success rate?

Triple pelvic osteotomy (TPO) for dogs 5 months - 10 months is based on the same idea as JPS. But unfortunately it has the same success rate as JPS - the jury is out as to whether JPS or TPO actually do anything to prevent degeneration of the hip joint.

You may find this study conducted by the AVMA interesting: http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.230.2.206 Objective: To compare long-term outcomes of juvenile pubic symphysiodesis (JPS) and triple pelvic osteotomy (TPO) in dogs with hip dysplasia. Clinical findings: Results suggest that JPS and TPO have similar effects on hip joint conformation in dogs with moderate to severe hip dysplasia but that neither procedure eliminates the hip joint laxity characteristic of hip dysplasia or the progression of degenerative changes.

Have you asked your vet? What is his/her success rate? How many operation have they performed and what follow up has been recorded on the dogs? What does your vet think of your pups shortened tail? What does cruciate ops on your sisters Rotti have to do with your pups hips?

Why can't you wait another month to see the Breeder recommended vet? I'd make the appointment and also ask to go on their cancellation list, in case an earlier appointment becomes available. I dont think you should proceed with the operation for two reasons 1) you are not 100% about it 2) you have not seen another vet for a second opinion. You wont feel 100% with any decision you make until you gain more knowledge about your dogs condition, prognosis and options. I would not push fwd with the operation IRRESPECTIVE of the xray results. Whatever the xrays reveal - good or bad - you will then need time to consider this and what they mean for your dog. It's your dog, and you'll be the one wearing the consequences and upset if you realise or learn in a few months time that the operation was unnecessary and has its own side-effects for your dog. So make sure you are 100% about the decision you make - that means you need to make an INFORMED decision, not a decision made in haste and under pressure, and reeling from bad news that your dogs hips aren't good.

He now has a face book page: 'Barking Ray' http://www.facebook.com/pages/Barking-Ray/...15424361?v=wall

ooh contentious topic! ASD and KDs are currently shown in Group 6, Utility. When ASDs and KDs were the one breed and when they were called Anatolian Karabash they were in Group 5, Working. The powers that be group ASD/KDs as a 'terrain breed' so they like to have them with the Bernese, Pyrenean, Leonberger et al. The Central Asian is also in Group 6, Utility. Dont know why, I think ASD/KDs and CAOs belong with the Maremma in Group 5.

If the pup has a strong suckling reflex and is otherwise healthy, just not gaining weight - you have to consider an underlying cause - either physical defect or underlying infection. An underlying infection that is just at bay will weaken the pup, cause a pup to feed ineffectively and drain the pup of energy. Clavulox or Amoxicillin twice a day will not hurt, and will prevent the puppy succombing to illness either from anything current or because of a weakened system. Human Amoxicillin is fine but you need to make it soluble in order to administer the correct dose - if you have human Amoxicillin at home but dont know how to make it into a soluble formula, send me a PM and I can tell you how to mix it up to the correct dose for the pup. I had a puppy last litter that did not gain weight, so I had the pup on Amoxicillin from day 4 to day 8. When I stopped with the Amoxicillin the pup overnight seemed to succomb to pneumonia. So off to the vets and administered a clavulox injection - puppy went on to thrive and catch up to her siblings.

ooh little scottish bubs! well done! Jacobite can I ask the measurements of your whelping box? ta :D

wow mum's the word it would seem! best wishes, I hope it all goes well

Here it comes . . .

Have you read the article lilli, I'm curious? Yes I have read the article, including the excerpt below. Just because a supposed expert claims something, does not make it correct. There are other experts who claim the opposite. I'm one to listen to the expert with the actual field experience in that particular area. I'd like to know how many contact hours she has spent working with bloodlines / breeds known for producing dominant individuals. ie: working line GSDs/rottis/malinois; Anatolian; Central Asian; Caucasian. RE the Anatolian, Central Asian and Caucasian experienced breeders/owners will tell you that dominant personalities exist; long time breeders in Siberia and Kazakhstan base their breeding on this for the work their dogs have to do. Photo of izcim in Kazakhstan with some dogs. Their lives are so entwined as to be inter-dependent

Ok, how is stress a tiny tiny factor - in terms of cause and effect? Yes of course, but this is not a dominant dog. What you describe is a dog that has learned to merely take up the slack. As succintly said by Erny: Then there are dogs who aren't truly "dominant" but do exhibit behaviours (decision making; controlling; etc) that would suggest "dominance" but are present only for the absence of guidance/calm-assertive leadership/boundaries and which behaviours are easily extinguished when those attributes are taught/introduced to the dog's owners. Actually I think the problem comes with a definition describing a relationship, where that defintion does not take into account what a dominant dog actually is. So we have people believing that true dominant dogs are made not born and that a behaviourist can change this type of dog's outlook, moreover that there is something worng with this dog's outlook, and that dominant dogs are unruly and unstable. (Quite the opposite) As previosuly stated, it is not the dominance word that is the problem but peoples misattribution of it, possibly because it is very hard to describe something that is only a theory. To clarify: A dominant dog does not change with time. A dominant dog believes in itself and its right from the day it is born to the day it dies. This has NOTHING to do with the relationship between that particualr dog and its owner/handler ie: it doesn't mean that the dog is out of control, continually challenges the owner, is not obedient - their bond is extremely close, out of necessity it has to be. Just because a dog keeps trying it on with its owner doesn't mean that particular dog is 'dominant', just that the dog can see leeway and opportunity in what it does and doesn't have to do. A dominant dog wont always challenge its owner, often that is sorted from the outset, but the owner does have to remember what the dog is; you cant ask it to do things in a way you may ask another dog; you cant be lazy with its instruction, or force it do to something - it is a strong bond of mutual respect. imo the dominant dog makes the most loyal and intelligent dogs; they are the most clear with their intentions and where they are at. agreed dominance does not mean hard to train, my true dominant dog is my most obedient and attentive.

Hi H&B Sincerely thankyou for the consideration We are going to work with Laidley over the next few days, hopefully maybe there can be a silverlining to tragic circumstance.

SB where is Frozen Puppies in QLD? thankyou They are at Laidley. Between Ipswich and Toowoomba. Off the Warrego highway. Google them (sorry I cant link) and you will find their site. Qld rep is Ron now. Scott left awhile ago. Ron is excellent and comes highly recommended Thankyou SB Ron has been very helpful; we are hoping for the best

Hmm no I dont think so, social harmony is very important to them. Too tired now, will have to elaborate later

If a mother has high stress hormones during her pregnancy this will affect the base stress rate in her offspring. In humans this can lead to mental illness and all kinds of worries. Two things, one, what does stress have to do with producing a dominant dog? and two, even if you want to argue for a high stress hormones during pregnacny a dominant bitch is not going to stress to the extent a normal bitch would bcz of the dominat bitch's unique self-confidence and steadfast disposition. Therefore, even if an environment was so dire that it caused a dominant bitch to stress to an extraordinary extent, that particular circumstance would be so rare and such an abnomoly that I dont believe it can be meaningfully applied to a discussion on what produces dominant dogs. On stress as a causation factor: where are all those dominant oodles and cockapoos farmed in high stress puppy mill conditions? And how can other breeders guarantee that they will get at least one dominant puppy from a breeing with x and y - not to mention, how does a litter born in the middle of nowhere with nothing but the routine of dawn and dusk, regularly produce dominant puppies? Its not something in the water, its a genetic thing genetics produces base temperament; anything during/after birth merely tempers the base temperament; it does not change it. what post natal health and stress, upbringing, classical and operant learning do you think would produce a dominant pup?

Thanks Ashanali, I have sent you a PM

SB where is Frozen Puppies in QLD? thankyou