BJean

it pops up because HD and ED are not driven by genetic factors alone. Hip scores are the image of the hip joint at the time an xray was taken. It does not tell you how that hip joint will age and how this will then impact the total soudness and longevity of the dog, and the role the dogs musculoskeletal system will also play in supporting and contributing to long term physical soundness. Consequently the propensity for hip structure to be passed on from parent to offspring, is much better gauged by previous litters from the same combination. imo hip scores can cause tunnel vision at the expense of the assessment of the total dog. With large breeds, locomotion and soundness depends on strong leg structure, hocks and pastern and gaskins and muscle development that will support the hips, torso; the dogs weight against the constant wearing force of gravity and the environment. imo a puppy buyer is better with a puppy from a sire/dam with an average-fair score but with strong sound structural foundation, and with a history of producing the same than a puppy from sire/dam with 0/0 score who have weak hocks, inadequate stifle, weak pasterns, poor shoulder and / or no history on the sire/dams propensity to reproduce a certain physical type. The pup from the first litter will bear the toils of gravity and the environment better and with more hardiness than a pup from the second litter. One of my girls is slightly cowhocked; hocks are straight when standing but when she moves away from you they almost brush. As she ages, her near perfect hips will be of no consequence on such a long legged large dog, weak hocks will age her quicker than had her hips scored average or fair. To her advantage is a perfect front which is better conformed to take more impact than a front not as well conformed. In large/giant breeds, it's not just hips that have a say in the health and longevity of the dog. Owners need to be aware that locomotion, soundness and longevity in large / giant breeds depends on balanced structure. Big dogs = more wear and tear on the joints so efficiency and a strong leg support system is just as imporant as hips. east west pups, weak hocked pups, inadequate stifle in a heavy bones / tall breed will develop arthiritis as a given, inefficient movement casued by weak conformation places undue wear and tear on bones and joints; hips are but one part of many. Muscle development, exercise and diet as the dog matures impacts its own influence again so the final result of physical soundess is more multifaceted and interelated than a hip score leads many to believe.

How long have they been breeding, how many litters, how old are the dogs living to. If its HD and ED that are your concerns, then your best indicator is the health of what the breeder has produced from the same lines, that will tell you more than an xray. and will be a better indicator of the propensity for health and longevity of a puppy from the sire/dam combination you are considering. Look at age of sire, dam age of great/grandparents when died and from what cause. Oldest sibling or puppy bred from the sire / dam etc ETA: atm I am looking at puppy from o/s health testing is not done or has ever been done in pups country of origin. I personally would not consider another country or breed just bcz of the existence of health tests - healthy, long living dogs were bred before the advent of health tests and good breeders knew how to select sound stock - health testing is about helping breeders gather information as part of the decision making process wrt breeding choices. Health doesn't need to be a mystery, just be practical and objective in what you are looking out for.

What health tests and do you know if the health issues are a problem in the Australian population?

Yep mine go to the vet only when they need to. nb: Check up for what? I can tell if my dog is unwell or not . As an owner you are the best judge as to whether your dog 'just not right'.

They also have some mink ones for $5 and double bed size for $7 I got some today. so where to go coles, or kmart ...

same!

dogs are with people the moment they are born, we mould them to be companion animals. We touch them, talk to them, they smell us all the time, then we feed them, socialise them etc. We take over the role of their mother - sort of like hand rearing baby birds who then become more bonded to their human then to other birds and lose some wild bird traits. I can tell you I have seen dogs untouched by humans until 8 weeks and they act completely differently to your normal puppy. WOlf pups again are not raised with human contact, they are not TAUGHT to be reliant on people for everything. THose dogs and pups not raised around people did not immediately rely on the owner, they worked things out for themselves, and you could see the detatchment. They went to the owner for a treat like a dispenser, yet they were just so independent. I think if you want a valid study raise some domestic dogs out with wolves and see if they fare any better. Or raise some wolves/dingoes in a domestic litter from birth (one pup per litter so there is no chance of copying one another) and see what happens then. You cannot just say that it is purely genetic the effects that have been measured. I agree with Nekhbet. I don't think there is an innate desire in dogs to look to humans to solve problems for them, I think this is probably a learned behaviour as Nekhbet described we take over the role of their mother. This is why the first 8 weeks of a pup's life are so important. Early neurological stimulation is thought to improve performance of dogs in competitive situations. If you think that dogs looking to humans to solve their problems is because they are hard-wired to do it how has this happened? I don't think it's genetically programmed into them, which to say it's innate or hard-wired I would think it would be. I wouldn't call it looking to humans to solve their problems but I think some breeds are more people orientated than others. CAO has a developmental history more entwined with humans than their Turksih counterpart, Anatolian/Kangal; I think CAO look to people more, ie have more emotional capacity/inclination, than ASD.

Actually Anatolians/Kangals one of the more primitive LGDs, are very good problem solvers, their constant querying and analytical mind however does make them unlikely stars at dog obedience, paricularly strong working lines.

haven't been on much so missed your poll one letter per dog 7

x2 Perhaps you should google the breed temperaments of some of these breeds - one website states that the Caucasian Ovcharka to have agression to people and other other animals (the family and the animals in the family ok) but visitors to your house beware. The sites also state over and over again - not the breed for anyone that doesn't have experience with large powerful breeds, must socialise them more so than other breeds if you are going to have one that isn't dog aggressive. While I don't want to single out other breeds, have you had a look at what these dogs can do in the wrong hands - I know you will all say that any dog can be dangerous in the wrong hands, I agree, but I would rather face a rottie than one of these in danger mode. It's not the people on these sites that are irresponsible. Can you imagine one of these dogs, purchased from a byb, put in a yard, never socialised, rarely or never exercised - what do you think will happen to that dog? We are not talking about a medium or large dog, we are talking about a giant breed with extreme power. I don't see a part in suburban life for these dogs. As a guardian dog of stock where you know that no person will ever get attacked, then ok. My family has a farm, and we have had numerous times people wander onto our land (which is clearly marked Private Property) - what if we had one of these dogs - I'm sure they would attack and the result would not be pretty (plus probably a large law suit to follow). I'm just stating that I would hate to see these dogs in the wrong hands and I don't feel that they deserve to live in suburbia. Google is not your friend if you dont have the intelligence and perspective to process the information that you are given. Probably in your instance, it is consequence of too much information and not enough explanation or understanding. I read many assumptions, built one atop of the other, with ample fairytale thrown in to fill in the blanks. There was a thread somewherre in BSL, about the wording of the Fila breed standard; different content to here, but similar concept. ie: human aggression and what they means wrt guardian breeds. NB: if your farm is in victoria and someone entered your farm despite the signage and warnings of danger, there would be no law suit if your dog was to attack a trespasser. thankyou. Point taken, but explain then why these registered breeders state on their own websites about the history and their own dogs that aggression towards humans and other animals (other than their own family) is commonplace and is part of their characteristics? (Similar to those that say an APBT has gameness). That they must have strong (not necessarily physically) owners, they are not for everyone and only certain people should be keeping them. Also, there could be a lawsuit (and there was from memory some years back now but not in Vic about a trespasser but he was illiterate and couldn't read the signs and ended up in an accident (it wasn't a dog attack). I wonder why the Danish govt has banned them? As I said, aggression and breed characteristics as described above is not the problem but your interpretation about what that means. I dont know why the Danish banned them. Most likely based on extrapolations drawn from ignorance and fear. Maybe they watched youtube, who knows?

Define 'no vet care'. What do you mean - no vet care when sick / ill or no vet care wrt regular flea treatment, vaccinations. How would you improve the conditions of the dogs - what specific care needs to be given so the dogs move from 'inapproprioate' to appropriate care?

Which is why in a democracy you are allowed to determine what you believe is best for your dogs. Other owners like myself, have equally valid concerns as to why they do not want to desex, and/or when they decide to desex, it is based on reasoning relevant to the individual dog/bitch. imo your summation of why not to desex is simplistic and perhaps a little dramatic :D I do not consider the long term health of my dogs or dogs of my breeding should be put aside for any reason. There are so many unknowns with how certain cancers and other issues (ie auto immune) come into play, that until canine development is fully understood and how this relates to the expression of certain health concerns, I will not advocate blanket desexing that does not take into account the individual dog/bitch and the informed opinion / choice of the owner.

Scare mongering will not help owners make better choices for their pets. The information regarding whether owners should desex their pet or not, has become a mantra on ethos not what is the best interest for the individual pet owner and their dog.

imo the issue is that of MANDATORY desexing. Not what breed or cross breed of dog the man owns. Good on him for standing up for his rights as a pet owner. Desexing is NOT the panacea that it is purported to be.

Yes, it is also known as a 'split season'. The first stage (season) ovulation does not take place. L:)

Just noticed you live in NSW - I dont want to scare the bejesus out of you but there are quite a few Ovcharkas living fine and well in suburban and rural NSW.

x2 Perhaps you should google the breed temperaments of some of these breeds - one website states that the Caucasian Ovcharka to have agression to people and other other animals (the family and the animals in the family ok) but visitors to your house beware. The sites also state over and over again - not the breed for anyone that doesn't have experience with large powerful breeds, must socialise them more so than other breeds if you are going to have one that isn't dog aggressive. While I don't want to single out other breeds, have you had a look at what these dogs can do in the wrong hands - I know you will all say that any dog can be dangerous in the wrong hands, I agree, but I would rather face a rottie than one of these in danger mode. It's not the people on these sites that are irresponsible. Can you imagine one of these dogs, purchased from a byb, put in a yard, never socialised, rarely or never exercised - what do you think will happen to that dog? We are not talking about a medium or large dog, we are talking about a giant breed with extreme power. I don't see a part in suburban life for these dogs. As a guardian dog of stock where you know that no person will ever get attacked, then ok. My family has a farm, and we have had numerous times people wander onto our land (which is clearly marked Private Property) - what if we had one of these dogs - I'm sure they would attack and the result would not be pretty (plus probably a large law suit to follow). I'm just stating that I would hate to see these dogs in the wrong hands and I don't feel that they deserve to live in suburbia. Google is not your friend if you dont have the intelligence and perspective to process the information that you are given. Probably in your instance, it is consequence of too much information and not enough explanation or understanding. I read many assumptions, built one atop of the other, with ample fairytale thrown in to fill in the blanks. There was a thread somewherre in BSL, about the wording of the Fila breed standard; different content to here, but similar concept. ie: human aggression and what they means wrt guardian breeds. NB: if your farm is in victoria and someone entered your farm despite the signage and warnings of danger, there would be no law suit if your dog was to attack a trespasser. thankyou.

These livestock guardian breeds are commonly used for the Dog Fighting Festival held each year in Afghanistan. This festival draws huge crowds from all over that part of the world (Russia, Pakistan etc) and they bet on the dogs (which are mainly the Ovtcharka breeds). Very sad and the govt hasn't outlawed this barbaric tradition. Children are watching this so what hope does the next generation have? LGD breeds are used for dog fighting because intellectually and economically challenged men (most often young males with nothing better to do with their time) have poor understanding of what/why dogs fight and thinks it helps them with their perception of tough and whatever else etc blah blah LGD breeds are crossed with other breeds because bigger dogs are tougher dogs and how cool do those dogs look uncontrolled at the end of a leash with pithy human on th eother end blowing in the wind... hmm.... Mainly the ovcharka breeds - oh which ones? The pure bred ones or the cross bred ones; purebred lineage of these dogs are not easy to find in certain populations. And just because youtube says it's so, doesn't mean it actually is.

The Ovtcharkas (which quite a few fall under this breed) are known for their very aggressive nature. I've seen footage of these dogs and not only can they aggressive (towards humans as well as other dogs), but the sheer size of them can well be a recipe for disaster. They must have some stats in their country for this ban. The Boerbel another interesting one. Several of my South African friends (who are dog lovers and owners) cannot believe they are allowed in this country - they have said that time and time again this breed makes the front page and TV news because they have attacked people, and usually members of their own family (of course that doesn't mean all will by any means), but just shows that these large powerful breeds in the wrong hands can be a disaster. What we don't want here are the irresponsible dog owners picking these breeds. I'm all for responsible dog owners having these breeds. :rolleyes:

This is false. (If the above was true, how does it account for growth in pups that are desexed early ) Bitches continue to grow in height and breadth well beyond their first season.

Puppies 8-12 weeks bounce back quicker after being desexed than a older 18 month old. You pick the pup up from the vet early afternoon, by dinner time you wouldn't even know that they were desexed, you just need to contain them to a crate so they don't rip their stitches out... Puppies generally don't need pain killers where the older ones do. If you were going to get the dog desexed as it was a pet and wasn't going to be bred from why would you wait for them to have a season or 2 prior to this happening, can someone explain this please? What nickojoy has told you is the exact truth. I can guarantee it as I have seen the same results. It appears as though some people are concerned about growth plates etc, (rightly so) but I believe that young dogs should not have this type of exertion placed upon them. I am not interested in how quick the pup 'bounces back', but rather the pup's long term health. One of the first treatments for incontinence in bitches is estrogen. Until it is known exactly how hormones impact the growth, immune system and mental development of a dog, I will not early desex, or desex before the first season.

THANKS RAVYK much appreciated

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