BJean

Black and tan patterned Kangal Dog

what day is it on?

If I move a dog out thats been working with sheep - especially if I send one of those sheep with it - not a problem. But you cant take one which has been lying around on a couch and expect it to look after sheep and vice versa unless you move through the steps you need to ensure you bond them.You never have to worry about the dog accepting the livestock but rather the livestock accepting the dog and over all they accept what the human in their lives accepts. Maremmas dont have the same responses to pack order issues and often you see the dog with the most dominance acting less assertive.Many of the traditionally accepted canine behaviours are absent or not apparent. what steve said with a CAO and ASD specific modification: imo the maremma working style is to bond stronger with the pack (stock) whereas the CAO & ASD bond strongly to the territory, are more reactive in defence, and by default protect what is in that territory. Some CAO/ASD show an affinity for the reproductive cycles / behavioural patterns of the stock they cohabit with, as any good observer - but it is not necessary for them to do their job. CAO/ASD will tend to have their own canine pack/territory bounds, with other aninals divided into those that are allowed in and those that aren't. Instinctively they remove birds of prey, rodents, snakes, 4 legged and 2 legged unknowns. Generally, rehoming a working CAO / ASD is difficult due to dog management issues - wrt a home that is capable of taking an adult CAO/ASD successful in defence ie: they need to be CAO or ASD savvy and knowledgable with dog body language and understand the psyche and responses of the dog they have in front of them. Also integrating (ie rehoming) an adult CAO/ASD into another established ASD/CAO working pack/team would be near impossible without some sort of casualty or veterinary assisstance. It *can* work, but no one would expect it to or rely on it. Its not that the CAO see change as an opporutnity to 'move' anywhere, its more their size and innate response to a situation.

Here you go http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...hl=progesterone nb: the normal range is not known absolutely as there is not data on all bothces .. so for some bitches it may be 'normal' for them to have a prog level of 40 and carry a pregnancy I think the absolute cut off is very low around 7.

Is that because the puppy you have kept has better potential or is a better conformed pupped than the puppy you are selling the purchaser? If not, then what is wrong with her breeding from the puppy later, if all goes well and the puppy develops nicely? I think it's a good thing you are still selling a puppy to the lady, I just dont understand this part.

eventually got to it ;) http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...p;#entry4945087 Breeds you could consider: Maremma Anatolian/Kangal Central Asian Central Asians are the most effective LGD at dealing with feral dogs, but the total package is not for everyone. What breed you are partial to, will depend on the breeds general working style in lieu of your property setup and expectations of the dog.

you need to add in an undesexed option for your poll

Yep, wouldn't think twice. imo it is normal, dogs need to be allowed to be dogs.

THAT would be interesting. wonder where mandatory desexing would fit. The concept of a 'real campaign' is an interesting one huh

http://www.theage.com.au/national/rspca-ca...0710-104vy.html sigh there is absolutely no doubt that the PIAA support puppy factories. oh but they only support 'ethical' ones of course What is the difference between a puppy farm and an rspca approved breeding facility? Ms Jalbert said vets and shelters were seeing constant problems with chronically ill or genetically flawed dogs from puppy factories. Lack of social interaction and handling and learned behaviour from mothers made fearful by constant confinement also led to behavioural problems later in a puppy's life, she said. ''The consumer and the animals are the ones suffering while these people who run the factories are cashing in,'' she said. I thought it was pedigree dog breeders that were cashing in on consumers struggling with their genetic defect dogs? change of tact hey.

Well it soon will not be a problem for you, the large scale breeding facilities will be inspected and any small breeders that are still around. Now if you are buying a puppy from an inspected and approved large scale breeding facility, I am not sure if you as the buyer will be able to visit the mum and pups. Play with them, temperament test the litter and have weekly updates and discussions about the pups as they grow with their breeder like you might have done in the past with a home breeders. Which BTW would have given you ample time to scrutinize how the pups and dogs were managed in the breeders home. But I am sure the staff member on duty that day at the facility will be able to answer any questions you have. You will also know that the large scale breeding facility has passed inspection and is approved to breed and sell puppies. So it seems you will have ample opportunity to get a pup from an inspected source. For the greater good. I'm not all that interested in made up hypotheticals...... I was hoping for an answer to the questions posed Actually RSG reminded me of something ... I'll tell you why I'm so special because I know my dogs better than any rscpa or whatever inspector or indeed any well intended animal advocate and I will protect them from ignorance and mishandling and cruel and unusual treatment. So I will do all I can to protect my dogs from being 'inspected' and seized and then housed in an rspca/council pen until the conditions drive their instincts to shut down mentally and react in the only way they know how ... to protect my dogs from being poled, penned, poled and then euth'd. Why am I so special? because I do everything for my dogs and I dont give a toss about the advocated greater good - not if there's a chance my dogs will suffer for it. Now you tell me why you are so special to demand that my dogs should suffer because another dog suffers at the hands of someone else at some other place. You said its about dogs' rights? Yeah it is, so why are my dogs' rights less important than a puppy farm dog that can't be defined or quantified?

Do you think that is the argument? Don't you think it matters who I let into my home and what they are looking for? btw to inspect you need definitions of 'acceptable' right? So if you have an idea about what is an acceptable and unacceptable argument do you have an idea about how to define what my breeding facility should look like and what is okay and not okay to do with my dogs ie: how I keep them, where they sleep, conditions etc? And in the name of 'protecting' my dogs and the people who buy from me, the dogs will need to be inspected too, yes? So how will you measure a dog's mental and physical health, whether it's desexed/entire etc? see above come back with a definition for me. + what jdavis said: Would you want the person doing the inspection to belong to an organisation that already thinks you are doing the wrong thing? If it was an independent government organisation doing the inspection it wouldn't be an issue, but the RSPCA have already made their views on breeders clear. The health department sends an inspector to check your bakery you have a way to appeal their decisions. The RSPCA decided you are doing the wrong thing they take your dogs, charge you an arm and a leg, if they get their way you have to pay their kennel fees upfront, and then they injure and kill your dogs and you have no recourse. Would you want that? Imagine someone who doesn't like you has unstoppable power over you, would you give them the ammo to use?

uh-huh f-a-c-i-l-i-t-i-e-s this is what they rallied for. All in the name of oscar (sic) ...

Ya think? *** Can someone (computer/dol savvy) cut/paste save this thread, so I can retrieve it from the archives and staple it to a few foreheads? They cant see it now, but they will see in retrospect.

oh but you know they should. is crap on the floor allowed, or would that insult sensibilities? because I can clean the crap up beforehand but sometimes I miss a few.

Im thinking how many pugnacious, contemptuous tweens and teens would comply as well. Those inspectors are going to have to go in armed with padding!

Define 'premises inspection'. what do they look at? where do they go? inside the house or just outside? I'm curious about inspections because I wonder how they would work at my place, or any other breeder who has working/guard dogs. So I have some inspector stand in the driveway and I say okay in that paddock is dog A, B & C; in that paddock dog D & E; and in that pen dog F, and in that pen dog G. no you cant go any further or the dog(s) will kill you. sounds great! : D Define health records. yearly vaccs, never vaccinated since a puppy? worming? what will health records show? each dog to be inspected?

Possibly because DogsVic wants to retain the right to disagree with the RSPCA legistlation regarding puppy farming. Why should DV attend the rally, they represent vic pedigree breeders and their dogs, not the rspca. DV can stand on their own as a dog welfare representative body as can the rspca.

Really, it's a matter of committment? Seriously can you or anyone else recommend a purely positive trainer in victoria and I willl send them a dog that if a purely positive trainer has success with relying on PP methods for the dog not to react or be a danger to other dogs or other people then I will know that I am not committed and really need to look at what I think I know about my dogs. [i currently walk the dog on a loose check chain (fur saver) when out in public] I'm quite sincere. I dont buy into the one size fits all as in reality (well in mine) you approach and work with each dog differently, but when a blanket rule is touted and written about in such ways, it makes me wonder that perhaps the blanket rule has merit. So instead of reading about it, can we find out? NB: Corvus, I can send him to you as long as you promise to send him back You will have to keep him seperate from your other dogs though. I'm going o/s for october, so instead of paying kennel boarding I can board him at your place and you can let me know how you go after three weeks.

I think you need to reread the rule book As a breeder without an affiliated Breed Club, the overwhelming point of contention is that there are Breed Specific breeding decisions are being made for Central Asian, Anatolian, Kangal by people who know nothing of the breeds, except for maybe what they look like and their breed name. It is unfathomable that there are breed specific minimum ages being proposed with NO consultation with the breeders and those who know the breeds. So we have random ideas for an Anatolian, Kangal and Central Asian breeding protocol, being made by people who have no working knowledge of each breeds' respective breeding conditions, gene pool constraints or any of the pressing issues facing their breeding future.

Well for starters I wouldn't let an online forum put you off a breeder purely based on points of difference wrt how breeders sell their pups / what they recommend to puppy buyers. Generally respondants only endorse what they are familar with and and advise against what they are not - so it wont really help you much. The reality is, Breeder specifications like deposits, specific diets, veterinary checks etc depend very much on the individual breeder and are in the range of normal and cannot be used by third parties to determine whether a breeder is good for you or not So yes, what your breeders website proclaims is NORMAL. Best tip for buying from a breeder insterstate, spend the comparatively extra few dollars and fly out and meet the beeder and the puppies. or failing that ask the breeder to explain why they do the things they way they do and make your decision from there. .

As others have said, it's not so much experience but the outlook and expectations of the owner. I run a pack of 8 large dogs from the OP's list, and really the average chi, pom or mini poodle: I have no idea how to relate to them; we exist on a different frequency. I'd be a disasterous owner, irrespective of experience. Kudos to the owners of chis, poms, mini poodles and the like but they're way out of the realm of possibiliy and successful actuality for me.

Oh so you are counting now... Are you counting the battery hens the RSPCA did a lucrative deal over or the 'too hard' basket the RSPCA gives a wide berth to while they go after soft targets? or the animals that suffer while the rspca funnels funds into addressing the heinous accounts of debarking and tail docking. c'mon curly bertie - hey maybe you can give us some figures or even an efficiency ratio of how many animals the RSPCA save per dollar donation? maybe contact Mildura council and find out how well the rspca spent funds there, get a list of all their achievements ... knock us all over with a swanky rspca feather.

I think part of the problem is people who know very little about breeding dogs and what happens in breed clubs and/or the pet industry. are pontificating about how legislation will work / should be applied. You dont have to be a breeder or breed club member to comment / have an opinion, but like all things, it helps to know bout what it is you have an opinion on. There are many people who are non breeders or non breed club participants who's comment and insights are very informative and offer different lines of thought on the matter, but generally they comment because they are informed on the issues.