BJean

other: I have an extra large crate that the dogs dont / wont use. It is currently storing clothes on top and my suitcase on the bottom.

I don't think horses legs are comparable to dogs though. It's only a tiumph of function over form if there is indeed a structural problem. And timing can be a bitch.

Not in small breeds? And what will lameness tell you?

I wonder how his muscles and bones will develop and the stresses this will put on his system. Big reds are powerful animals, the males especially. All their grace and power Nature bestowed them with is the strength they can generate in their hind. They are an amazing combination of muscle, asymmetry and balance.

Agreed. Unregistered does not equal Unrelated. It is not that they all originate from the same place, but the rigours and selection process for breeding is different. Yes as example I see entropion in volkodavs (Kazakhstan) and in Anatolians (Turkiye); and I have experienced entropion in CAO and Anatolians in Australia. This is not the big deal. The big deal is how the breeding dogs are selected. In Australia we breed from dogs and make allowances for weakness that are not allowed for or possible in native environments. We coddle our dogs and send them to vets. By making our dogs 'healthier' in effect we breed them weaker. The more care we give the less the dog can look after itself. In a native environment always the strongest are bred from. If a dog is bred from with entropion that is because the dog still supersedes its entropion free counterparts. Kazak volkodavs are rarely vaccinated and wormed yet they are rarely made incumbent by parasites. The past 30 years dogs in Turkiye have received more regular worming and innoculation. Anatolians are not as tough as Alabais/volkodavs (CAOs from Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan). I speak with a few long time breeders, dogmen who know both breeds, and I ask were Turkish dogs once as tough as the Kazak and Turkmenistan dogs - they think so. But a lot has changed in the past 30 years. The Kangal types in Sivas and Ankara in general are not as robust as the dogs used for wrestling in areas mostly unknown to western 'kangal' enthusiasts, areas like Denizli, Goreme. Where the dogs only passs on their genetic material if they succeed. But now I am going into LGD breed thread detail In any case, each time I visit I learn new things from comparison. I used to think we take better care of our dogs in general, but now I am not so sure.

I believe the idea or thinking is, That there is never a time when a closed stud book in 'good' for a breed. There is never a time when limiting genetic diversity is in the best interests of a breed. I do not think that anyone is going to imply that opening the stud books by it's self is all that is needed to change breeding habits of the last century, nor will it change many breeders habits. But it is a very big step towards saying, it is time for change. But where does new stock come from? imo new stock that is tempered by the same conditions as their registered counterparts is more risky than a closed stud book. Admittedly I'm blinded by my own bias and limited to what I know from my group of dogs, eg: I see how the terrain / environment forces say dogs from kazakhstan to be healthier and more robust than the average dog in Australia - Kazakhstan volkodavs have to have strong immune systems, they have to free whelp, they have to fight their own infections or they simply die. But what does an unregistered dog in Australia have over a registered dog? [excluding working kelpies or dogs that rely on their physicality to pass on their genetic material ie Kelpies, hunting dogs etc] Registered dogs, you know their lineage and the health of that lineage - the good and the bad.

To enable me to understand this a little better, what potential issues with judges approval and DNA profiling do you see? I'll use the SBT's for example and some things you could potentially introduce into your lines. Short toes Poor temperaments and this is a biggie Oversized A line that has a weak immune system and are predisposed to allergy, food intolerance, demodex Cancer Straight stifle and patella issue Short tails, screw tails Undershot, overshot and inverted mouths ( it's a hard breed even when you are dealing with the known ) HD & ED The dog that is profiled and assessed, can really only be tested for L2-HGA HC, hip scored and eye tested and these paint only a very small picture. Good breeding comes not from slapping two dogs together and hoping for the best or from buckling under pressure.. The more research you do and the more you know about the health issues and what certain dogs and bitches have produced, the more informed decision you can make. If I had a quality bitch, line bred for generations, there is no way I'd use an unknown dog in the name of introducing " genetic diversity", in order to satisfy and make it acceptable to "society" and " Government". In contrast With say Anatolians from Turkiye, if you select a good field dog from field parents and grand parents, chances are the dog does not carry significant health problems, because in a working situation the dogs have to survive on their own accord, and dogs with immune weakness simply don't live beyond the whelping or rearing process. Conformation faults are still abound, but you can see these on the dogs you do select as adults. Cancer is a bit of an unknown, though I do know some lines of dogs that are still robust and having puppies at 11yo. [Dogs bred in breeding establishments in Turkiye are another thing altogether and imo are more risky health wise as they are selected on looks and populist ideals and dont have to pass Mother Nature's tests which generally test a dogs soundness and immune capability.] And as PF pointed out they can get sound Basenji's from working lines in Africa. With dogs that dont have a working base, or natural environment base (for lack of a better word), like the staffy I agree with RSG that opening the stud books is very risky. For example there is no way in Australia that I would welcome opening the stud books and allowing unregistered Kangals born in Australia onto the Australian ANKC register.

To enable me to understand this a little better, what potential issues with judges approval and DNA profiling do you see? I'll use the SBT's for example and some things you could potentially introduce into your lines. Short toes Poor temperaments and this is a biggie Oversized A line that has a weak immune system and are predisposed to allergy, food intolerance, demodex Cancer Straight stifle and patella issue Short tails, screw tails Undershot, overshot and inverted mouths ( it's a hard breed even when you are dealing with the known ) HD & ED The dog that is profiled and assessed, can really only be tested for L2-HGA HC, hip scored and eye tested and these paint only a very small picture. Good breeding comes not from slapping two dogs together and hoping for the best or from buckling under pressure.. The more research you do and the more you know about the health issues and what certain dogs and bitches have produced, the more informed decision you can make. If I had a quality bitch, line bred for generations, there is no way I'd use an unknown dog in the name of introducing " genetic diversity", in order to satisfy and make it acceptable to "society" and " Government". But does the Staffy even need genetic diversity? Would there even be grounds for opening the studbooks based on narrow gene pool? [i have no idea on staffys ]

The FCI in France (perpetually) and the AKC in USA (on occassion) have a similar system in place for allowing Anatolians from Turkey to be introduced to the pedigree system. But the ANKC will not recognise these dogs unless there is three generations behind them. I think it would be a fair guess to say that the ANKC Kangal has the highes COI in the country, or at the very least, one of the highest. ANKC Anatolians have the advantage of the FCI and AKC systems, so there COIs are on the other end of the scale.

pandypam can't. instead here's a typical scenario of why pammy's petition should not be signed: http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=212800

Aww, does Lilli need a hug? Sorry about your bad day. And I'm most flattered "to be a doyen of what encompasses a responsible pet owner". Thanks! Nah, the dogs are all back home and the fanatics cant touch them. Well deserved hugs have already been sent out to the boys in blue, so all good here.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree then because I can't think of any circumstances where it would be appropriate not to desex, apart from the one I outlined in my earlier post. Or maybe where a rescued animal is already very old. I think it is unfair to leave a dog entire, with all its natural urges unfulfilled. Desexing helps to eliminate that problem. Perthaps you can outline some reasons why desexing of pets should be optional. Bahaha you don't happen to moonlight at the Cranbourne Pound hey? lots of zealots there too one of the worst pounds in Victoria pffft When you've stopped bahahaing and pfffting, please explain who's a zealot. Truly, I have no idea what you're on about. usually I'd edit the bahaha but since you've already quoted, I guess I'll have to leave it in. anyway, on zealotry, I resent when people's personal views, become the reasoning for mandatory requirements: Responsible ownership encompasses desexing unless one is a reputable registered breeder Having just negotiated my way through a mandatory desex situation with some no idea pound staff whose knowledge and experience with dogs equates to their campaign network and personal belief system I'm more than tired of social ideas being forced upon people. I might have my own ideas about what I think are suitable dog breeds, pets etc but I can still see they're my viewpoint only, and dont expect the rest of the community to embrace them or be forced to abide by them via legistlation. At the end of the day, who made you the doyen of what encompasses a 'responsible' dog owner. I don't like social engineering.

Don't be fooled into thinking that one methodology is more right than another - it doesn't matter what I or other breeders do or don't do - each breeder is different; all that is ultimately relevant is what the breeder of your preferred puppy does. I charge quite a bit more for a Main Registered puppy Vs Limited Registered puppy. You're paying for bloodlines, knowledge, travel, importing, extra support, guarantees etc even at 2500 - 3000 per pup you are getting a bargain. For me the notion that all pups cost the same to raise and therefore all pups are equal in price is a furphy. Works for some, good for them. Doesn't work for me, so I don't do it. Rare breeds like yours that involve a lot of imports are a whole different scenario to numerically strong breeds like ours. The op is after a show Border Collie and this is a breed with practically no imports. We export far more than import because Australia has the best show Borders in the world. I think most breeders charge considerably more if they export a dog for breeding because they are losing that dog from their gene pool here and the breed costs much more anyway in the countries we export to. BCs sold locally though are all sold at the same price regardless of register and colour. We prefer not to penalise anyone that wants to show by charging them more and if they don't want to show they don't get a main register dog. Getting new showies into a breed with big numbers is very difficult because it is so hard for a novice to win even a class with a good dog, let alone title it. A rare breed can go out week in week out, pick up points and end up in the group line-up even if it is mediocre, so showing them is a lot more appealing to a newcomer. Still the 'we' mentality. You cant speak for all breeders of bcs in all circumstances, no matter how many you talk to around the show ring or out and about. You and your mentors and associates, friends, bc social circle do what suits your own collective - it still has no bearing on whether the bc breeder who goes their own way and bucks the trend is doing the wrong/right thing.

maybe if they want to stop the killing of unwanted animals they should institute pound systems that work better. ya know actually WANT to give lost animals back to their owners (nah ...)

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree then because I can't think of any circumstances where it would be appropriate not to desex, apart from the one I outlined in my earlier post. Or maybe where a rescued animal is already very old. I think it is unfair to leave a dog entire, with all its natural urges unfulfilled. Desexing helps to eliminate that problem. Perthaps you can outline some reasons why desexing of pets should be optional. Bahaha you don't happen to moonlight at the Cranbourne Pound hey? lots of zealots there too one of the worst pounds in Victoria pffft

Watch a dog run at speed. Watch how the tail is used to balance on turns. no ears and no tail, and no problem with balance. can weave in and out over all terrain, snow, ice, duststorm, no problem I think changes in mental aptitude by selective breeding have had an impact. I'm sure some breeds are more stupid when it comes to innate dog behaviour / communication than other breeds. Some breeds even fail to recognise when they are in dire straights. Chihuahuas come to mind.

I like my breed anyway, but they are better off with their tails docked. fwiw I think they are better off with their ears cropped also. Yes. But I am also breeding from overseas. No That they don't know what they are talking about; moreover: it's none of their business. and what they think its irrelevant.

Don't be fooled into thinking that one methodology is more right than another - it doesn't matter what I or other breeders do or don't do - each breeder is different; all that is ultimately relevant is what the breeder of your preferred puppy does. I charge quite a bit more for a Main Registered puppy Vs Limited Registered puppy. You're paying for bloodlines, knowledge, travel, importing, extra support, guarantees etc even at 2500 - 3000 per pup you are getting a bargain. For me the notion that all pups cost the same to raise and therefore all pups are equal in price is a furphy. Works for some, good for them. Doesn't work for me, so I don't do it.

fact is, you don't know if any of this is true meanwhile its all okay to brandish ute drivers in tamworth?

You want to start a campaign, conjure media reports and you don't even know ıf the story ıs true or not? Best to confirm the facts before you start rolling your vıgılante wagons into town.

There is no way a large-giant breed puppy can get optimum growth and development in an apartment. (assuming the great dane is not too far removed from the Central Asian) It is impossible to simulate with 'walkies' the benefits of a natiural environment / the space to move at their own leisure has on their musculoskeletal development. Housing an adult in an apartment is different however and can work, depending on the dog and owner.

She is also selling them entire......mmm how long till Klee Kai crosses are being sold? Give it a year and the puppy buyers may try to recoup the ridiculous cost of their first dog. wow lots of snooty assumptions abound in this thread!

Just makes the dog sound more unreliable and not suited. Most dog attacks happen in the home of the dog and to those it knows. But its a Golden Reriever! They dont attack. Must be some other obscure reason this cant be what it seems at all Yes... Have you ever read the Legend of Gelert? We could investigate the dog's behaviour. But more importantly I think there should be some thorough detective work investigating what the humans were doing first. of course, and doesn't it make you teary every time but no correlation here really - Gelert attacked and killed a wolf, no man

Of course it is shocking that a GR has attacked 4 people! GRs are known for their wonderful temperament, role as assistance dogs and role as a family pet. They generally have a very forgiving temperament. Surely you can see why the public find it so shocking? Unfortunately there are some poorly bred ones that are known for resource guarding and fear aggression. I think we should let a professional assess why this dog attacked before we jump to any conclusions or PTS. A large dog that attacked four of its own family - yet because the dog is a GR not a guard breed there is an outpouring of disbelief and a determination to find out why the dog did what it did. Because a GR just being poorly bred with poor nerve, poor reactivity just isn't a likely possibility. I dont believe for one iota that this will translate later, to all attacks being investigated the same way. It only reinforces the status quo. That there are good breeds and bad breeds.

What is a "guard" dog? A dog that is bought for the sole purpose of guarding a home, but isn't provided with any training and encouraged to be aggressive towards strangers. The owner generally has little interaction with the dog and has little control over it. The dog is often confined on a chain or some sort of tether system. a true guard dog has been trained by someone experienced and/or qualified to produce a security animal. The dog has been tested to ensure that it has good nerves so it is actually guaranteed to rise to the occasion (ie attack) when required. It has a good bond with the handler, who has full control over it. You've mentioned dogs that are poorly cared for and professional working dogs mostly GSDs, rotts and mals.. You've left out the many guardian breeds like Bullmastiff, Cane corso, Central Asian that are bought to be both household guardian and are not trained to be security animals. Yet they will guard. Lots of dogs are bought with the main purpose to guard the home. It would not be unusual for these to attack their owner like the GR did?