BJean

Hardly surprising omg so much emotive hyperbole where to start ... http://www.savingpets.com.au/2010/06/overpopulation-disguises-the-true-cause-of-shelter-killing/ I hope you are not on the DogsVic advisory committee ... so much misinformation! How many litters per year does a good registered breeder have? What is a registered breeder? The ANKC requires the breeding of inbred dogs with health problems - if I dont want to breed a cripple, I will not breed an registered ANKC puppy of that breed. How is breeding ANKC registered dogs of this breed a good thing?

I guess the desexing of large breed puppies exported to pet homes o/s, or that pet homes o/s should accept this as best practise, surprises me (by best practise I mean that a breeder would recommend it to homes searching for a puppy or would do it themselves) and I was/am fascinated by the psychology behind it - motivations, whys, hows etc It's difficult for me to write this without it sounding like an attack or personal grilling, and that is regrettable, as it is not intended to be. I would have asked any breeder of large breeds who said they only desex pets for export the same questions.

Then why are you asking your pet buyers overseas to be comfortable with it? I don't understand the rational in this paragraph Yes it's a lot of work to prepare a puppy for export. Are you saying that because of this the new home really shouldn't care about the desexing part, even though you yourself are not comfortable with it? It's your choice okay to desex your baby puppies before a pet home overseas receive them but you should not be surprised that the inquiring home "blows away" when they find out the puppy will be desexed beforehand. How is depriving pet homes who care enough about a quality Pyr enough to want to import one, of benefit to the breed? Potentially you lose another lifetime devotee to the Pyr. And one willing to invest in the breed. They are not a dime a dozen. But the assumption is that o/s pet homes are shonky because they do not accept a desexed Pyr puppy. Would you import or recommend someone import a desexed Pyr puppy? Pay $1000s extra for more risk and unknown? It is unfortunate that negative stories / events can be the predominant shapers of an outlook. Wouldn't it be great if someone in Hawaii started breeding awesome Pyr's and then Australia would have another source of Pyrs where quarantine was not as lengthy as France et al? I wish someone would start breeding ASD in Hawaii, some great home that imported a pet then decided they wanted to breed, and so they imported more dogs from different countries and interesting bloodlines ... It's not going to happen with my pets in Hawaii, as the home has desexed them but if it can't happen for ASD, well then I hope it happens for Pyr! :D Anyway I have gone way off topic from the OP

You have sold desexed puppies overseas? Nope. Not at this point. Quite a few enquiries though! Isn't it a compliment that they would choose a puppy of your breeding, for their family in another country? You are asking them for absolute faith in what you send them but give them no faith in return. (Let us exclude enquiries from countries where there is a dog meat trade.) I am not sure what countries you have enquiries from, but a lot of places would not want a puppy from you once you decreed the desexed condition as early desexing is not common practise and would be received as an insult. Would you buy a pet puppy from overseas already desexed? I think if a home wants to invest in a puppy from overseas and then if they decide to breed later, aren't they a good option to breed from your dog? And likely they would be the type of breeder to look outside the norm for bloodlines, afterall they imported for a pet, so imagine what they could do if they decided to breed. One of my pets overseas would actually be an excellent contribution to its breed (physical type + lineage) in the country the puppy now resides in, but unfortunately his owner will desex him. Sending a desexed puppy overseas what does it prevent? What is it protecting? Why is an o/s home that will accept a desexed puppy a better option than the o/s home that won't. To me, the o/s home that wont accept a desexed ASD / CAS baby puppy tells me that they probably know more about dogs than the home that will, and therefore are most likely a better option for my puppy. NB: Most people who have owned one or a few dogs in their lifetime do not like to be told what and who to raise their dog, and rightly so, because they have their own knowledge and way of doing things. Even if they routinely desex their dogs, they would not want a puppy already desexed. Particularly if they believe that it is not good for the dog. It is impossible to argue that desexing a baby puppy does not have side effects. Importing/exporting already has enough risks and unknowns, why would you knowingly add more?

I don't know. I haven't a solution for the problem. In this scenario, I am with RSG. I cannot ignore a breeder's way and share lineages 'for the benefit of the breed'; maybe I am too Croat who knows - but if I don't agree with a breeder's ethos, then 'benefit for the breed' doesn't matter. I have to keep myself sane also.

Yep and just because a dog is desexed and not used for breeding doesnt mean it doesnt live a life of misery anyway. This isnt about what is best for the breeds its about ego and control it has bought us to a point that unless we wake up we will have no one else to blame but ourselves for the demise of the purebred dog world as we know it because We have followed on behind animal rights and bought into it hook line and sinker Yes

You have sold desexed puppies overseas?

Lilli, could you elaborate on that more? From the outside looking in, it appears we care more for our dogs and as a result our dogs are better off. But our extra care is weakening our dogs over generations. So our dogs do not live as long, their nervous system and immune are not as strong. Even seemingly basic assistance like worming and inoculation has an effect over time. There are lots of things I see done in kazak that I would not do, but there are lots of things I wish we had.

Dont cook the meat, just add lamb in raw. Buy whole lamb necks and cut them up or leave them whole, depending on the size of your dog. If the dog is vomiting it could be because he is gulping his food and so vomits it back up to eat it again (toally normal). Cooked meat is softer so if the dog does not chew much it can still be digested. Gulped raw meat often needs two goes. Milk. Bread. Eggs. Sardines (canned in vegetable oil). Tuna (canned in vegetable oil). NB: It helps his stools because dry food has a lot of extra stuff in it that dogs do not digest as well as natural food. Cut out the dry food and you will find the stools are half the size, hard and not stinky sloppies.

This herd of sheep were in the care of two shepherds and their group of dogs, when we pulled up on the road the dogs ran down towards us, because we broke from what is normal ie cars are allowed to drive past but they do not stop. When the shepherd walked over and was asked if it was okay for us to come out we did and by this time the sheep had gone far away but the dogs were interested in us. In the end one shepherd walked after the sheep and he called the dogs away and this photo is of the dogs running back to their shepherd. The amount of land the dogs patrolled was as far as I could see.

No I dont think I would agree with that Maremmas do defend the flock but they also defend the territory and anything considered normal with in it. The Maremmas take down eagles and crows. In a working environment, yes the maremma defend what is normal in their territory but they defend the flock foremost. If we look at the maremma response their sense of territory is not as acute as flock(pack), hence they work in the style of bark and harry (protection), and often move flock away from the threat. In the Anatolian response territory comes first and then flock/pack. Central Asian sense of territory also comes first. The maremmas strength and point of difference wrt working styles, is that they tend to bond stronger with the animals. That is not to say Anatolian and Central Asian do not have an affinity towards what they share their environment with, but their working style requires a more acute sense of territory than maremma. In order for the Anatolian and Central Asian to have an aggression response, their sense of territory must be breached. Maremma also work on this sense, but their sense of pack overules why maremma do not run out guns blazing towards the threat. Removing birds of prey, snakes, rodents is role of all LGD imo. A lot of what the dogs react to is variances in what they perceive as normal. Also Maremma work traditionally in more hilly areas than Anatolian. Anatolian on vast plains, sometimes rocky here and there, with occasional mountains, but not the same undulations and fertile growth as Italy. The dogs needs to be 'more' territorial or more reactive / aggressive defending the area because predators can move up closer more quickly in this environment and there is more expanse of land for the Anatolian to cover. Hence Anatolian build is longer legged, bigger ratio depth chest / lung capacity. If we tweak a dogs defence and territory a bit and make territory not as acute and to form pack bonds more important, we get a LGD that is more accepting of strangers in their territory and a LGD that can be farmhouse dog and also farm stock guard dog like the maremma. I had a better photo of two dogs patrolling the plains and it showed the dogs lumbering on their own. The sheep are protected because the dogs are there, and the dogs are there because their shepherd is, but what gets the dogs to react is perceived breaches of the expanse of land (territory) that they perceive as theirs. The sheep are part of what is normal on their landscape. They are like the rocks. Something that belongs there. The dog's bond is not towards the sheep or the rocks but to each other, the shepherd and their territory bounds.

But what does CF mean? (now I'm curious and want to know also )

plus gustave is gawwwgeous :D sorry that's really not important to the discussion

Lilli, could you maybe explain this a little further? Aggression towards those strange to the Anatolian was not selected against. It is not regarded as unusual if they show aggression and while they will not go from stop to go at provocation, their mindset is not set to do all they can to avoid attack. This should not be confused with the bond they have towards their family/pack. Anatolians are inextricably loyal. But just because you want them to accept somebody and not growl at them, it doesn't mean they will. Some Anatolians are very much one person dogs, it can make you feel quite chuffed that they have chosen you, but you have to remember that this generally means from their perspective, or Anatolian world Order: there is the sun that their owner basks in their rightful glory in, and then there is them. and a loonnnng long way way off, is everybody else on the planet. Of course It is just that the difference between Maremma and ASD in general is that the Anatolian may be more prone to exhibit aggression. Not at their family, but at what they dont know. The Antolian is defending its territory; the Maremma semes to have a more holistic approach and defends the pack. The outcome is the same. I am not sure how DA maremmas are, but ASD can be DA. Though not as DA as Central Asian. (**in general**) Yes and they will tell you their Anatolian is a big softy a lounge lizard smooch Anatolian can and do work really good as family companions / guardians but imo everything depends on the temperament of the dog they start out with. Base temperament is pretty much determined by the dogs lineage. ie litter A, 7 out of 9 were sharp to extremely sharp, and none I would happily send to a suburban family home (rural family home okay). litter B, 2 out of 7 were sharp, but really more willful than sharp, they were more gregarious than litter A. litter A was a strong working line lineage; litter B, my soft female with v.assertive male. I recommend maremma or pyrenean mountain dogs or newfoundlands (depending on the context) to homes where I think it sounds like they really dont want the traits of an Anatolian. ie they may want a dog to only bark, to be gregarious and enjoy off lead areas, or things like play dates that an adult Anatolian doesn't really care about.

Yes and Yes

banning all live exports or just those to Indonesia? Animals Australia also promote the overpopulation myth and that buying from a breeder is bad, to buy from a shelter/rescue dog, a save is the only ethical course of action. Their campaign link has no place here.

In general: The Anatolian is in the middle between Maremma and Central Asian, wrt using physical confrontation as their defence response. By that I mean maremma innate response is to bark and warn from a distance, Central Asian innate response is active physical confrontation; Anatolian is generally warn first followed by physical confrontation. That said, It depends on the lineage of the dog, some Anatolians you can leave out the front to bark at unknown arrivals and some you cannot, because they will attack unknown arrivals. How they work is not the only difference, but it represents a lot about the dogs' general temperament and character traits. Probably Anatolians are more likely to exhibit aggression towards people than the maremma, but you will have to check with steve. Anatolians are expected to take the lead if there is leadership lacking and it is not unusual for this to manifest into human aggression if raised the wrong way. Generally if an Anatolian is 'not working out', it is because the dog is exhibitng aggresion towards the owner / family. Nothing wrog with the dog. Just the wrong temperament type for the home. My ideal Anatolian has a strong pscychological ascendancy and I will use an alpha assertive temperament type in at least either the sire or dam when breeding. Not all Anatolian breeders share this ideal, nor will a whole litter be this way. Yep maremmas are never aggressive and do all they can to avoid attacking. I believe the dogs are very much the result of their homelands. The Maremma is from Italy. Anatolian from Turkey. Central Asian from Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan. The Anatolian had less day to day interaction with people than the Central Asian, it needed to protect a lone shepherd and his flock. Being good with people was not a requirement. It was necessary that the dogs did not need people The dogs were never part of the family. The dogs of Central Asia were family guardians, expected to be a canine warrior of sorts and evolved to be physically so hardy because basically there is nothing there to support them. I dont mean 1000 years ago or 100 years ago. I mean even now. The landscape of Italy I cannot relate as I have not been there to look at the dogs in their environment, but if you extrapolate what you know of the three geographical regions, and the histories of the peoples that lived on them, then you will also see and understand the psyches of the dogs who lived with them. It is probably true to say that the Central Asia dogs can be as volatile as the history of the land they are from. But they are also survivors. I arrived in Kazakhstan with a lot of speculation and arrogance about how we look after our dogs, and left humbled with a lot of admiration for the land and her dogs. And realising there is so much for me to learn Very true. In italy they are expected to be more people friendly as the threat is from wolves and they are also expected to have basic manners with visitors etc when they are bought back in closer to the farmhouse. Yes in Central Asia the threats have been four legged and two legged. A guardian dog that will not attack is no good. A dog must love its family and be able to defend them. Be gentle and kind with those they know, and wild and fearless with those they don't. But we cannot say, guardian dog defend my family with your life, stop who will harm us at night, we trust you to make that decision with your superior sense of movement, sound and smell - and at the same time say, guardian dog I want you to use your instincts some of the time but other times just bark at what may cause harm; accept this person as my guest now but I depend on your physical strength to stop them when they are not my guest.

In general: The Anatolian is in the middle between Maremma and Central Asian, wrt using physical confrontation as their defence response. By that I mean maremma innate response is to bark and warn from a distance, Central Asian innate response is active physical confrontation; Anatolian is generally warn first followed by physical confrontation. That said, It depends on the lineage of the dog, some Anatolians you can leave out the front to bark at unknown arrivals and some you cannot, because they will attack unknown arrivals. How they work is not the only difference, but it represents a lot about the dogs' general temperament and character traits. Probably Anatolians are more likely to exhibit aggression towards people than the maremma, but you will have to check with steve. Anatolians are expected to take the lead if there is leadership lacking and it is not unusual for this to manifest into human aggression if raised the wrong way. Generally if an Anatolian is 'not working out', it is because the dog is exhibitng aggresion towards the owner / family. Nothing wrog with the dog. Just the wrong temperament type for the home. My ideal Anatolian has a strong pscychological ascendancy and I will use an alpha assertive temperament type in at least either the sire or dam when breeding. Not all Anatolian breeders share this ideal, nor will a whole litter be this way. Yep maremmas are never aggressive and do all they can to avoid attacking. I believe the dogs are very much the result of their homelands. The Maremma is from Italy. Anatolian from Turkey. Central Asian from Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan. The Anatolian had less day to day interaction with people than the Central Asian, it needed to protect a lone shepherd and his flock. Being good with people was not a requirement. It was necessary that the dogs did not need people The dogs were never part of the family. The dogs of Central Asia were family guardians, expected to be a canine warrior of sorts and evolved to be physically so hardy because basically there is nothing there to support them. I dont mean 1000 years ago or 100 years ago. I mean even now. The landscape of Italy I cannot relate as I have not been there to look at the dogs in their environment, but if you extrapolate what you know of the three geographical regions, and the histories of the peoples that lived on them, then you will also see and understand the psyches of the dogs who lived with them. It is probably true to say that the Central Asia dogs can be as volatile as the histories of the lands they are from. But they are also survivors. I arrived in Kazakhstan with a lot of speculation and arrogance about how we look after our dogs, and left humbled with a lot of admiration and realisation there is so much for me to learn

In general: The Anatolian is in the middle between Maremma and Central Asian, wrt using physical confrontation as their defence response. By that I mean maremma innate response is to bark and warn from a distance, Central Asian innate response is active physical confrontation; Anatolian is generally warn first followed by physical confrontation. That said, It depends on the lineage of the dog, some Anatolians you can leave out the front to bark at unknown arrivals and some you cannot, because they will attack unknown arrivals. How they work is not the only difference, but it represents a lot about the dogs' general temperament and character traits. Probably Anatolians are more likely to exhibit aggression towards people than the maremma, but you will have to check with steve. Anatolians are expected to take the lead if there is leadership lacking and it is not unusual for this to manifest into human aggression if raised the wrong way. Generally if an Anatolian is 'not working out', it is because the dog is exhibiting aggression towards the owner / family. Nothing wrong with the dog. Just the wrong temperament type for the home. My ideal Anatolian has a strong psychological ascendancy and I will use an alpha assertive temperament type in at least either the sire or dam when breeding. Not all Anatolian breeders share this ideal, nor will a whole litter be this way.

Its difficult for me to compare as Im not that up with the Central Asian but my understanding is that Maremmas are more user friendly for humans. That may be because I know my own breed and Im more comfortable with it but Im sure Lilli would be able to fill in the gaps with the CA. I think the main difference between Maremma and Central Asian (apart from size and structure although this ties in with their respective psyches) is the Maremma prevents physical confrontation, whereas the Central Asian, thrives on it. By thrive, I mean the dogs physicality and mentality is specialised into defending and therefore protecting, whatever exists within its territory. Both Maremma and Central Asian are thinkers, and their gentle demeanor and devotion to their human and animal family often belie thri capabilities. Yes the Maremma is more user friendly, but the Central Asian is more people orientated, more emotional than Maremma or Anatolian. I dont recommend Central Asian for first time LGD utilisation, as it can be a steep learning curve and believe the Maremma is better suited to the general. The Central Asian however is without equal as the first line of defence against feral dogs, in the Australian context. From what you have written, I think the Maremma is better suited

Ams, it is not that the CAS will feel caged in But that small areas of land, like a townhouse backyard etc cannot provide ideal space for a large specimen of this breed to develop optimally with the appropriate musculoskeletal structure to support its frame. Also the strong territory and defence instincts I would expect in an individual CAS, means that the owner cannot walk them around suburbia with the avant garde leisure, that owners of companion-specific breeds can.

I am going to copy the old standard because the new FCI/RKF Standard is such a disgrace that I can no longer refer to it nor will I breed under it. But my implacable bias aside, it is important for the old CAS standard to remain in this discussion, so the differences in the focus of the new standard, and the old can be referenced. General Appearance: Of a coarse conformation, with massive bone structure and powerful muscles. One often finds dogs of this breed with a tendency to looseness [soft; flabby]. The thick skin, with well developed and sufficiently elastic sub-cutaneous tissue, often forms folds in the region of the neck. Indication of Size [Proportions] The male is square to just slightly long, and the female is slightly longer - height to length ratio. Sexual Characteristics: Accentuated. The males are more masculine, stronger and more massive than the females. The sexual differences are clearly marked. Characteristics: [Not specified - See General Appearance and Temperament] Temperament: Type of very great activity [industrious; willingness to work], calm and balanced. The predominant reaction is of active defence. Head And Skull: Massive, broad skull with well developed zygomatic arches. Flat forehead, slight stop. The muzzle is slightly shorter than the length of the skull; wide between the eyes, hardly narrowing at all towards the nose. Seen from the front and from above, the muzzle appears rectangular, whereas in profile it has a truncated [blunt] shape with a heavy [thick] upper lip which hangs at the corners. The nose is strong and black. In light coloured dogs a brown [liver] nose is allowed. Eyes: Dark, wide apart, round, set straight. Ears: Small, pendant, set low, triangular' Mouth: Teeth white, strong, fittingly tightly. The incisors are set with their base in a straight line. Scissor bite. Neck: Short, muscular, carried low, forming an angle of about 30 to 40 degrees with the line of the back. Forequarters: Seen from the front, straight and parallel. The length of the leg, from the ground up to the elbows is slightly greater than half the height at the withers. The angle formed by the scapular and humerus [shoulder blade and upper arm] is about 100 degrees. The forearm is straight, massive and long. Pasterns short, broad, strong and upright. Body: Withers - High, well defined especially in the males. The height at the withers is 1 or 2 cm higher than the height of the croup. Chest: Wide, deep, with rounded ribs. The lower line of the chest is level with or lower than the elbows. Abdomen [belly]- moderately tucked up Back - Strong, straight, broad. Loin - Short, broad, slightly rounded. Croup - Broad, muscular, almost level. Hindquarters: Set parallel; moderate angulation of stifle and hock joint. Short second thighs. Metatarsals [Rear pasterns] - Thick and perpendicular. Feet: (Front and Hind) - Strong, oval, compact. Tail: Docked: Docked short. Undocked: High set, in shape of sickle, hanging; reaches the hock. Gait/Movement: The heavy, short striding trot and the gallop are the most characteristic gaits of this breed of dog. At the trot, the legs must move in a straight line, with a certain coming together of the forelegs towards a median [centre; tend to single track] line. Coat: Coarse hair, straight with well developed undercoat. The hair is short and flat against the skin on the head and on the front of the legs. The dogs are described according to the length of their coat: (a) Long-haired (7 - 8 cm) on the back and body, particularly on the ears, the neck, the back of the fore and hind legs, and on the tail.. (b) Short-haired (3 - 5 cm) and smooth. Colour: White, black, grey, straw coloured, russet (reddish brown), grey/brown, brindle, parti-coloured and flecked. Sizes: Height at the withers: Males not less than 65 cm Females not less than 60 cm Faults: General Appearance - Obesity. Slight deviation from the indicated size. Temperament - Lack of courage, nervous. Head & Skull - Small head, very prominent zygomatic arches; domed forehead; pronounced stop; prominent eyebrows; short or long muzzle; wrinkled skin on head. Ears - High set ears. Eyes - Light eyes or set obliquely; lids drooping; white fleck on the eye. Mouth - Teeth worn disproportionately to the age of the dog; broken teeth which do not spoil [deform] the bite. Missing more than two P1's or one P1 and one P2. Slight yellowing of the teeth. Neck - Long neck with insufficient muscle. Pronounced dewlap. Forequarters - Slight variation of the shoulder angulation. Slightly soft pasterns. Body - Chest - Flattened, somewhat slight [weedy]. Abdomen too tucked up (as in a greyhound), or drooping (voluminous). Withers - Low, not sufficiently prominent from the backline. Back - Soft or arched [roached]. Loin - Stretched [slightly long], straight or too rounded. Croup - slightly sloping. Hindquarters - Slight deviation from hip to foot being in a straight line and parallel to each other. Hock joints slightly close. Hind angulation slightly straight. Feet - Splayed, long, flat. Toeing slightly in or out. Movement - Slight deviation in relation to normal gaits. Serious Faults: General Appearance - Weak constitution. rickety; muscular weakness. Great deviation from the indicated size. Feminine males. Monorchids; cryptorchids. Temperament - Too liable to anger [irritability]; cowardice. Head & Skull - Narrow head; weak, snipy [pointed] or turned-up nose. Mouth - Small teeth; sparse teeth. Irregularly placed incisors. All deviations from the normal scissor bite. Missing one incisor or one canine. Missing a third or fourth premolar or one molar. Teeth with badly damaged enamel. Forequarters - Straight shoulders or too closed [forming too small an angle with the upper arm]. Deformed leg bones. Soft pasterns. Body - Chest Flat, narrow, small, insufficiently developed. Back Sway back or humped. Loin Long, narrow or hollow. Croup Narrow, short, steep, very high. Hindquarters Definite deviation from hip to foot being in a straight line and parallel to each other. Bowed legs. Hind angulation excessively straight. Feet - Badly splayed, very flat. Toeing in or out badly. Movement Restricted movement; hobbled. Coat Very short coat without undercoat, soft, wavy or curly. Eliminating Faults - All deviations from the correct scissor bite. Absence of one incisor or one canine, a third premolar or a fourth premolar or of one molar. Monorchids; cryptorchids. Atrophied testicles. Notes: Males should have two apparently normal testicles fully descended

forgot to add that an adult sheep (what is the singular ) is big prey for a single fox usually they go for lambs. ETA: (totally unrelated) @ crisovar - hehe your signature is really funny, I just noticed it lol Some people are like slinkies - not really good for anything, but still they make you smile when you push them down the stairs.

I think dog(s), not fox. You should let me send you another canine warrior in the interim hey :D

I guess the Russians have stamped their name over everything hey. (They have also made huge changes to the Central Asian Breed Standard to the point where it can no longer be the same dog, unfortunately they did not change the breed name to Russian Mastiff as imo that would be more apt.) With the BRT because is a Russian breed I'd be interested to see how BRT breeders challenge the Breed Standard changes given ANKC/FCI policy agreement to follow the country of origin.