westiemum

Fabulous thread - just adore the oldies. My Mac is 12 on Saturday - and the vet said this afternoon that his precautionary blood test yesterday was 'perfect' - so apart from his early canine dementia which appears to be pretty stable, he's a very healthy old man - so I hope I have many more years with him. Sheridan great to hear of the gorgeous Grumps - I had no idea he was 15!! :thumbsup:

Yep you're right Boronia - they are so westie like - absolutley adorable!

And this...

This.

Yep it is hard to tell whats helping - Mac is very purposefully growling at dinner time at the moment (I tell you you could set your watch by this boys tummy! )so I think thats the grumpy westie part... the aimless barking and growling at nothing is the dementing part and has a different character... he has an 'out of it' look on his face and it's really aimless... and I reckon thats the difference...

Julie you know the socialising I am referring to - a dog who has learned to live confidently with humans and with their lifestyle which includes dealing with other dogs and does so reliably - as well as being well socialised with their Mum in the first few weeks of life. This is impossible on a commercial dog farm with over 100 dogs and puppies who are caged on concrete. Good breeders care for their breed and their puppies and don't have more than they can responsibly rear, including socialisation. Farmers churn them out simply for profit without care for the dogs they are breeding from or for socialising the offspring because they commercially can't/won't. So question for you: Who are the dog farmers who socialise well who you refer to? Genuinely curious. Julie you know that being inside in front of the heater and getting cuddles all day is not the socialisation that we are referring to... mischievous of you to suggest as much. And we'll just have to agree to disagree on the numbers issue... I have never seen a commercial dog farm operation which socialises their puppies properly - it simply doesn't make commercial sense and makes no difference to the sale price - so why would they do it? Dog farms are nothing but a numbers/profit game - you know that - so yes numbers are an indictor/characteristic of dog farming. Actually No I dont and call me mischievious etc but you had better spell it out for me - if the comments here about dogs being reared in households etc are not indicative of them needing to be inside with the families then what exactly is it that you mean by what a pup needs to be well socialised to be able to live happily ever after? Some commercial breeders do a pretty good job - I know that too.

Copied to shorten the post: Julie you know that being inside in front of the heater and getting cuddles all day is not the socialisation that we are referring to... mischievous of you to suggest as much. And we'll just have to agree to disagree on the numbers issue... I have never seen a commercial dog farm operation which socialises their puppies properly - it simply doesn't make commercial sense and makes no difference to the sale price - so why would they do it? Dog farms are nothing but a numbers/profit game - you know that - so yes numbers are an indictor/characteristic of dog farming.

Happy to be corrected but I would respectfully suggest that policy doesn't always get followed... ;) You may want to check your information. Trained MWD do not live with their handlers, they live in the kennels and a retired MWD is not rehomed with anyone, they are PTS at the end of their working life. They are considered too much of a 'loaded gun' to be less than strictly controlled. Dogs that fail the initial MWD training (and retired brood bitches etc) may be rehomed in pet homes if suitable. This is done several times per year. Dogs not trained for bitework (eg expolosives detection dogs) may be homed with their handlers at the end of their working life, but certainly at the moment the policy followed by the RAAF is that a trained MWD never is.

Julie I respectfully disagree - I suspect from your comments you haven't read the whole thread so that might be a good idea... This thread is about a man with 84 dogs who works in a pet shop and not one poster has said thats not a lot or has said that is something they think is reasonable. There has been a lot of bellowing about assumptions, generalisations and not enough information however IMO and experience I have never seen or heard of a dog farm with this many dogs which socialises their puppies properly. In fact if what you say is true is true and different breeds need different management then they are even worse than I thought and thank you for supporting my argument further. Big numbers of dogs are usually characteristic of dog farms, commercial dog farmers and badly socialised dogs so they usually go hand in hand. Various posters, me included have agreed that bad management is not related to numbers - both can be 'mucked up'. But there is a point where good socialisation is not possible without significant investment in staff - and IMO 84 is well above it.

Julie Huh? Where was I talking about military dogs? Although I happen to agree with Mita having had a lot to do with the RAAF dog Squad in Darwin some years ago. And everything Mita said stacks up with everything I learnt then from the RAAF Dog handlers. They are heavily socialised as puppies and live in their handlers households during their working life and retire to them and their families. So whats the difference? I never claimed to be an expert. I use 'IMO' a lot - and carefully. But yes when it comes to dog farms and the rehabilitation of poorly socialised ex dog farm dogs then yes I certainly claim significant expertise and experience . Not all breeds are the same and not all breeds can or should be socialised the same way that military dogs are. Same old same old everyone is an expert.

I rest my case...

Mita, I'll answer your question - they can't. And that is precisely the point of my posts as well. I believe there is a critical point/number of dogs (that probably varies within a range) where effective socialisation can't be achieved, unless of course its with a reasonable ratio of staff to puppies - and I've never seen that in any dog farm. (Dog farmers woudn't care about socialising their breeding 'stock' - and yes thats what they call them). That level of socialisation with staff eats into their profits so probably becomes commercially unviable. So with that number of dogs I can't see it happening. As Crisovar says, annecdotes are useful - it can make a rather academic discussion real. My Mac and Andy are former dog farmer sperm donors (yes thats all they were valued for). Both are still scared of all non-westie dogs (they were caged only with westies) and are still frightened of visitors although they are both improving. This is a direct result of the way they were not socialised and marks them as 'not normal'. It has had huge life long ramifications for them. So nothing in this thread has convinced me that a huge number of dogs can be effectively socialised for households living with families. Again, IMO companion dogs for households need to be bred and socialised in households.

Hmn... interesting isn't it? Hard to know but it would appear the b/d is helping Grumpy... is that your hunch too Sheridan? I notice that Grumpy will come looking for me and if he doesn't find me immediately, he gets very confused. I arrived home on Thursday to find that Grumpy had thrown up his breakfast. He's been on the B/D for a week. No other symptoms other than the throwing up. He didn't get any dinner that evening and was okay the next morning (to Mini's dismay, she was also unfed that evening just in case it was her but I was pretty sure it was Grumpy). I'm now half feeding B/D and half feeding Eagle Pack and he seems just that little bit vaguer since Friday.

Agreed Ellie! I have three dogs too and they all eat out of stainless steel for hygiene reasons (mind you I had to teach Andy to eat out of a bowl too! LOL!)

Crisovar I'm sorry you were accused of being a dog farmer - plainly ridiculous judged on dog dishes! (I use SS too!) But you seem to have taken this very personally. And yes bad management can happen regardless of numbers. But IMO this is a discussion about what is likely to be the case with someone working in a pet shop who says he has 84 dogs and appears to be proud of it according to the OPs post... DOL has discussed this topic at length over the years and the clear conclusion over the years is that mass produced companion puppies from commercial operations who do not socialise their puppies (and who's primary motivation is profit - its why they have so many in the first place!) are not companion animal breeders but are breeding 'stock' in the farm sense or 'product' for sale. Given extensive discussion and evidence over the years on the characteristics of dog farms, (See www.wheredopuppiescomefrom.com.au) it is highly likely that this man with 84 dogs does not socialise that many dogs and is probably in it for profit. Therefore, commercial dog farmer. You're right - its not about numbers - until at a certain point this many companion animals become 'stock', living in 'herds' so to speak - and take on those characteristics in behaviour and become unsuitable as companion animals for households IMO. And its generally agreed that that number, whatever it is, is excess of the number that can be reasonably socialised (and cared for) by a household (not a farm). By the time we are talking about 84 dogs, kennel staff or not, household companion training and socialisation become an issue if not impossible. 84 is a lot of dogs in anyone's book and far more than you would see on most farms, properties and cattle stations, so this is not about ignorant 'tar and feathering - rathre a discussion on what is likely to be the case here and its a companion animal welfare issue and should be discussed. And again I'm sorry you were called a puppy farmer - stainless steel dishes are not one of the characterisics! Happy to agree to disagree. So any Breeder who keeps more than the number of dogs that you and others here feel is the appropriate number has dogs that turn out like yours? Some of the best natured dogs I have met have come from large breeders. The saddest rescue I ever had came from a 2 dog household that had litter to pay for an OS trip. Bad management can occur across the board no matter how many animals are involved. I was accused of being a puppy farmer because I fed & watered my dogs out of stainless steel bowls and therefore according to the wise had no emotional attachment to them because they didn't eat out of pretty dishes, the BS just goes on and on. The only living creature here with a uterus is a pony so that was pretty amusing. The generalisations and accusations that go on are pretty damn ignorant. People are tarred and feathered just because they don't fit in someone elses square, no proof needed, just whack a label on them.

Its likely they are being sold as companion animals as thats where the money is... otherwise why so many dogs? People get to choose their lifestyles - caged animals do not. The odds are he's a dog farmer (he's holding down a job in a pet shop so he's unlikey to be mentally ill and hoarding)...

Mita and Poodle Mum and poodlemum have it right - assuming he has 84 dogs he's a commercial dog farmer who is unlikely to socialise his dogs and puppies properly if at all. My Andy is a puppy farm rescue and while improving, he is still frightened of visitors and other dogs (but now warms up much more quickly) - and its a direct result of his lack of socialisation and being caged in the dog farm. He didn't even like grass under his paws and initially behaved on grass like he was on hot coals! Preferred to sleep on boards or concrete in the beginning... IMO you can't possibly socialise that many dogs and puppies properly (or does he let them all into a house two or three times a year??!!)regardless of kennel staff numbers. Companion animals destined for families and houses need to be bred and brought up in families and houses. What about socialisation? If dogs are to be raised to be companion animals....& to produce puppies destined to be companion animals...socialisation is the key element. That statement is backed by research. How does someone provide socialisation for 84 dogs & whatever puppies they have? Without socialisation, it's farming (no matter how many dogs someone has & what physical care they get)). With socialisation, it's raising dogs/puppies to be companions around people. Small breeds are usually destined to be close companion dogs, which heightens the need for them to be raised in circumstances where both the puppies & the parent dogs are well socialised. This I have been breeding Standard Poodles for nearly 20 years - could not imagine having so many dogs - if your dogs are not part of your family & the litters personally overseen by you then, in MY opinion, you are a Puppy Farmer

Gayle I'm so sorry to hear. Big Hugs. Yes you're so right - with Mac with his dementia I recognise he could suddenly go downhill really quickly... can't bear to think about it so I treasure every moment...

Hi All, Just resurrecting this thread with an update: Mac is continuing to do very well on his herb robert 'herbal tea' - but I now give it to him morning and night and he's tolerating it very well and doesn't leave a drop as long as its mixed with the B/D. It certainly seems to be helping with his canine dementia - he doesn't seem to be going downhill at the moment and the frequency and intensity of his purposeless growling and barking doesn't seem to worsening. No other symptoms of canine dementia seen - so so far so good. Genuinely not completely sure whats working here but since the herb robert was added into his regime he does seem better and more 'with it' - a happier westie. His regime at the moment is a sprinkle of herb robert (about a teaspoon?) in water steeped overnight for the next morning then 1/2 a 50 mg vivitonin tab 1/2 an hour before breakfast and 1/4 a cup of the Hills B/D added to the herb robert tea in the morning - he then gets that mixture for breakfast - I know its not much but he stacks on the weight if I give him anymore of the B/D and then I get in trouble with my vet! Then when I get home at night, he gets 1/2 a vivitonin tab 1/2 an hour before dinner and then I steep the herb robert for half an hour and add the 1/4 cup B/D and give him a little of Jo's raw meat formula and a handful of veggies - he then gets that mixture for dinner. Phew! And yes I had to really concentrate hard to get into this routine successfully but now its really easy, automatic. This seems to be working for the moment - and I'll review it if he seems to be going downhill at some stage...

I haven't used fishpond for a couple of years as I found them a bit expensive as well as unreliable - and then I found the Book Depository UK - and haven't looked back. I always pay with Paypal - no Paypal, no purchase.

Hmn... was going to suggest a westie or a cairn - they were bred for this type of stuff - although my bunch of lounge lizards wouldn't make it! But I suspect if they were trained from young adulthood they should be good at it... but they do have an independent streak, tough and nuggety - and interesting thats what I actually like about them... no wimpy,characterless lap dog here!

Always good to hear from you Sheridan and sooo good to hear good old Grumpy is doing well. He sounds like such a character. Good you've got him on the b/d. I'm managing to keep Mac on it for the moment - but at a smidge under 100.00/bag I'm not sure how long I'll be able to keep it up. Luckily for me I can only give him 1/2 a cup a day or his weight balloons (and then I'm in trouble with his weight obsessed vet!) Mac's purposeless behaviour doesn't seem to be getting any more frequent or intense. Although he does seem to be a bit more vocal just prior to what he believes is dinner-time!! (Boy does he let me know!). But thats very purposefuk and rarely seems to happen at other times so I'm not too worried about it. Anyway good to hear of Grumpy and hope he continues to do well.

Thanks BCC and I'm so sorry to hear of your boys sad passing - I dread when that time comes for Mac. So far Mac is doing well but I'm beginning to wonder if there are two subtypes of canine dementia operating here - the ad hoc reports here on DOL seem to be that those reporting confusion and loss of memory and problem solving skills like your boy seem to go downhill very quickly. Where as those who don't seem to lose those skills but whose behaviour is more characterised by puposelessness and aimlessness don't seem to go downhill as quickly? Anyway just some thoughts... deerhound owner are you around? What do you think?

Thanks PME, I have heard Gingko Biloba was used in humans with tinnitus but didn't know it was used in dementia - thanks for the information and will keep it in mind if I need to change his treatment regime in the future.

Why am I not surprised... :rolleyes: This stuff is like Maccas everyday for dogs... Which is why I only feed human grade raw food - at least I can be sure whats in it...