Steve K9Pro

K9: hocking up? your putting food in your mouth right? Lagging in heel, hmm 150 ways to fix that, just choosing the right one I guess...

K9: Hey Sas glad it worked! Your a great aim too!

K9: I am honestly not having a shot at you here but this will change or at least need to if your to remain in the field. Animals and their treatments and therapies will vary to a great degree and I find I must too or I will let them down. K9: I am sure he would agree, I am also sure he is very proud of the work you have done... ************************************* In the end the trainers need to be open minded and effective, regardless of whether they are training Police Service Dogs or family pets, when I work with dogs sometimes I use prong collars, some times I use e collars, some times I use drive, some times I use marker training, sometimes I use a clicker, there are many variables that help me make the decision on which way will work best for the dog and the owner, it doesnt really matter what I am training as it is more about the dog and the owners goals. Even if it is a Beagle, Finnish Lapphund or Basenji...

K9: Some peoples pets are big - drivey and aggressive too K9: I know someone who competes in Obedience with a Beagle, not even sure its the right Beagle, but they are going great anyway... I cant believe people still categorise dogs by breed when drives and nerves are not consistent through breeds. Far from all German Shepherds are suitable for Police style training... when I assess a dog for a task, its breed has little to do with it. I think that when you talk about Police dog methods, you need to specify Police dog methiods of what time? As I mentioned the comments that were made by Steve Lindsay were quite a long time ago, like all dog training methods have come along, so have the methods used to train dogs in the services. Motivational Training is the primary method that all the departments I have worked with in the last 5 years are using, when they ask me to put together workshops, Training in drive is always on their list of must haves. They havent been against corrections, they just know what works the best and use it in a balanced system to achieve the best results.

Hope your right, 'cause I was pretty freaking horrified by that! K9: I am not sure a dog would survive dropping 80% of its weight, or the humans around could stand to A. watch it, B. do it and C. put up with the noise. I know that it is common that adults dogs being adapted into working dog programs often drop weight, this is mostly due to the increased work load these days. Also more prey motivation is used these days so need for so much focus on food reduction.

K9: Just saw this thread... Steve Austin is an exceptional trainer and a nice guy... I dont know much about the B&T facility but if he is attached you can bet its ok. I am not a huge fan of Board and Training as I focus on training people to train their dogs, but it does have a place in training. Those who say that most people dont need the reliability of a service dog are right, but if you train with a trainer who can train dogs to that level, you at least know that you are working with someone that can exceed your requirements/needs. Not all dogs can succeed in working dog programs as they dont have the drive and or nerves, but we sure can train the dog to its genetic capability... The Bio Sensor (Super Dog) program that Steve Lindsay spoke about his envolvement in was many years ago... And I think you might find it was drop the dogs weight TO 80% of original, not drop 80% of the dogs weight off....

K9: we stock a good range of muzzles to suit most dogs. Www.k9pro.com.au

Yep sure you can do both no problems. For convenience you can also download this in PDF format from my website that is printer friendly etc too.

K9: I hope all goes well with Kathy.... I am always interested to see what peoples reactions are to certain dog related incidents. We get lots of enquiries every week and hear some pretty severe stories on what dogs have done, we dont have "euthanise the dog" as a standard answer, no matter what the dog has done... There can be underlying behaviour and medical problems that can drive many behaviours which can be totally overcome with treatment. I dont know of a situation in which the dog wouldnt deserve an assessment at least before being put to sleep. We use the term Pack for dogs a lot, the human equivalent is family, family members deserve all we can give...

K9: There are a number of things that could be causing this behaviour from a medical issue to a learned behaviour. I feel there is unrest in your pack and when your Wolfie comes near it triggers that insecurity in your Shepherd. His reaction is to urinate which he feels in some way will relieve the psychological pressure he is feeling. This is but a guess though as I havent seen your dogs. After reading some of the advice I cringe as I have seen pressure related situations like this turn into huge pack fights when someone who doesnt have experience with dog packs "tries something" they read somewhere, seen somewhere or what worked for Uncle Joe... Do yourself and your dogs a favour and have a Qualified Behaviourist look at your dogs... It wont be solved over the net. Good luck I hope things get sorted.

K9: I agree that with any behaviour problem, seeking professional help is always a good idea so I wouldnt strike that off as a waste of time either, and whilst barking is communication, most times it is assumed that the reason for communication has been understood, it isnt an exact science. Separation Anxiety is the most over diagnosed condition in dogs, things like dog doors are good (rarely have any positive effect on SA though) if you want the dog inside, but if you dont or cant they obviously are no solution. I might suggest a dog that is quiet inside the home may not be high on the list when it comes to the probability of Separation Anxiety, but it might be an idea to start to demonstrate to the dog that if your at home, this does not mean the dogs will be inside all the time, teach them it is ok to be outside, when your inside (if you havent). Any dog club that bans you for a tool you use on your dog in your home, would be a place I would give a wide birth, what happens if the club gets sponsored by a dog food company, will it be use "X" brand or your banned? The dogs welfare in every case is one of the most importamt factors, which is why I recommended speak to the neighbours, having sedatives and poisons thrown over fences is far from uncommon in barking dog cases. There are a number of Anti Bark devices and collar types that all have ways to deter barking, from boredom buster style toys, to timed toy releasers to Ultra Sonic (distractionary) devices that can even be positioned around the home, all of these in some way can reduce the barking to some degree, but the answer to your question of which collar is the best was the YS300. Keep in mind also that I am not saying your dog needs a bark collar, doesnt have Separation Anxiety or anything else, as a professional I am making no diagnosis here as I havent seen your dog.

K9: Depending on the severity of the problem, I might suggest you take action by means of a good Anti Bark Collar, I would also either speak to the neighbours and let them know your working on it or drop them a note perhaps. The most effective Anti Bark collar on the market in all our tests is the YS300.

K9: Hi and sorry I missed this, took a quick look at your videos and can def see problems there, I would need to talk with you on how you do train so I can identify what adifferences my program has to what your doing. Ideally my Training in drive package builds the motivational engine and handling system that can and will complement sport and working dogs, the real focus is on drive and deploying it over or through distractions which may also be driven by uncertainty or nerves. Things that previously plague your working routine like your dog being distracted by people, environments, noise or other dogs often dissolve, there are a few people here running this program and doing really well (I am proud to say!) If you just want to shoot me an email, [email protected] we can chat and see what we can do...

K9: Shoot me his email and I email it to him lol

K9: Yes it is bless them! lol Wipeout...

K9: Oh man I love that show!!!! Those big red balls crack me up! Mine is from the software I use to edit pics and get screen captures for our Distance Packages, makes it easy to point out things that need attention...

K9: well, a picture is worth a thousand giggles (apparently lol)

K9: Yeah the treats in the mouth is like luring, so you can condition the position including lifting his head up too, which will help his position too, but targetting often generates a bit more drive but with some less formalised positions, so play with both, the disc around your neck can really help if your good with your timing.

K9: He is sitting where it benefits him, he can see your treat hand there too... The steps I mentioned will work, but I would also be doing something with the reward delivery, you could just be simple and drop treats from your mouth so he needs to be right against you to win... Or you can start the targetting and also go to remote rewards...

K9: Hah! your already there just didnt know it. If he will target an object, you can hang a plastic bright coloured disc of a necklace (string) around your neck, set it at the right height so he can touch it to complete the recall, this is a great way to develop a skill of recalling him to a touching position.

K9: I would teach this in two ways Sas. 1. I would teach him the hand touch, so that you can have him complete a nose to hand contact to earn a reward (click). This will help eliviate the problem with his nose. 2. I would teach him to target a piece of white malamine board with his front paws, when he touches it, click > reward. Once he has worked out thats what you want, I would add a verbal cue like "board" or similar. I would recall him to the board from 3 - 5 m away, have the board laid out on the ground where he would usually stop, verbal cue "board" when he is on his way in click when he hits the board. I would then move the board closer to you so as he is coming closer each rep and I would place your hand on your tummy level with his nose too. So he is focussing on what pays not what he doesnt like. Finally I would fade the verbal cue board and then fade the board too...

K9: For anyone else, I had problems with loose fitting gloves, the glove could become a tug, so the ones I liked best are very tight fitting gloves with protection in the right places (for me at least). They are nice and Flexible and last well, they have other good uses, they are not a dog training specific glove (yet) so they are just good to have around. Ideally your dog should be taught to respect your skin, as Angelsun said, that is 100% correct, but there are some circumstances in which I have found gloves helpful, I wear them now myself (when I dont forget them )... Those circumstances are (but not limited to) : - Your working with a pup (they have needles for teeth), your developing drive and dont want to compromise that by any negativity yet and you would like to protect your hands. Gloves Your a trainer working with a clients dog/s and the dog hasnt been taught to respect your skin, whilst your getting the message accross, gloves will help. You can struggle a bit with tug presentation because either, you have a dog that moves at lightning speed or your just a little slow or un coordinated (so what right?) Gloves.. You are faced with a dog that tries to grab at the wrong part of the tug because it has learned that the handles (perhaps) give the dog better grip or leverage. You then cover this section of the tug and dog is still trying to grip it which = your hands. Gloves. You have a rank dog that has learned to win the tug by biting your hands, gloves. You dont know the dog your going to work, gloves (precaution). Gloves should not be to replace the ability or the desire to get the ability to handle tugs properly, teach dogs to target the right area of the tug, or take less care. They are protective equipment and are to take care of your hands... I even use them for high food drive dogs too (shoot me )

K9: what happens if you dont have the tug handy? do you just feed your arm to the dog? A:How about realizing that tugging isn't always the BEST reward..there are others in case you weren't aware of that. K9: are we now talking about methods or reinforcement? How about we stay on topic... K9: Yes absolutely, you may have missed my earlier post in this thread that identified why bites can happen, but the gloves are to use WHILST the dog is learning to target. A: that's funny as I haven't had to worry about that, and manage to teach targetting with my index finger and a pat on the head....clearly I must still be in the dark ages as you refer later in your reply K9: Must be us in the dark ages here Down Under... K9: Mistakes happen, and when they do, protective clothing can be helpful and again, whilst handlers are learning to use a tug, these can be handy. A: Right tool for the right job....and I don't mean gloves...how about a bigger tug? K9: Let me get this straight, you can teach the dog to respect your skin by using a bigger tug, meaning your hands are no where near the dogs mouth... right.... Isnt that like teaching a dog not to toilet in the house by never having it in the house? K9: lol no band aid is what you use after you havent worn gloves lol... but seriously it isnt, this may be another case of "I havent tried it but it wont work because". My 6 yo does that with some foods I love how you consistantly put words in peoples mouths and claim that because someone disagrees with your methods, they are wrong or ignorant (def: not understanding) I have trained in schutzhund in case you missed that in my resume K9: Hold on, I didnt put words in any ones mouth and I responded directly to you. Not people... These are protective gloves for gods sake, not a method? And I clearly said DONT USE THEM! It was you who is attacking me here, because you dont agree with my methods (tools)... K9: Some new (and old) handlers start to add avoidant steps into their tug work as they have been bitten a few times, the dog cues off this and starts aiming at the hands, this of course is a handler error but again, it does happen and wont happen when the handler starts with gloves. A: I'm not sure where you get that part from *dog starts aiming at hands* but if you beleive that to be true..so be it....in my opinion, it simply means the handler has moved ahead too quickly or used the wrong/incorrect size reward. K9: Ok sure I will agree with you if it helps meake things clearer, but when the handler has made a mistake, what then, you deny them gloves and make them pay until they teach better taregetting or tug presentation? K9: I dont think anyone is saying, "wear these gloves and then let the dog bite your hands" but when you work multiple dogs as I do, dogs that are not mine, dogs that are untrained and puppies, bites will happen until the dog is taught to target better, in the interim, gloves. But you ARE in fact promoting the use of gloves, in fact you have people lined up to buy them if you get them in. How about instruction on how to target correctly without them? K9: That is available too? I bet if I had addressed my first post with "come to me Aussienot and do a lesson, I will teach you how to avoid getting bit", you would have an issue with that too, because obviously the issue isnt with the gloves... And yes I am promoting gloves, I have had many people tell me their hands are in tatters, can they wear gloves, I tested a number of different types, I found a type I like, we are making them available, so? K9: Are we? says who? if we are then it may not be easy for them to teach their dogs to accurately target. I would also suggest that, Aussienot, Jeff Jones, Erny and Cosmolo arent average owners teaching their pets tug games.... A: Yes we are...although some as mentioned may be above average pet owners, these threads are read by MANY who are first time dog owners, moreso than those of us that have been around the block a time or two....first time pet owners NEED help to teach. Slapping a set of gloves on doesn't teach. K9: Firstly, why didnt you then post a reply with a teaching method for those who say they are getting bit? If your that concerned, why not help rather than critisize? Second I guess you must be against training wheels on kids bikes too? Thirdly, NOT wearing gloves sometimes teaches people not to play tug... Finally, the people I mentioned are Pro Trainers, not people who "may be above avaergae pet owners" as you said... K9: OMG go back to the house and get them? gee.... you could also still just work without them, just as you do now... A: always the jokester....assuming we always train at home? Some of us do get out and for me, training happens all the time, not just in the back yard.... K9: you seriously cant be bagging out a piece of equipment because one day you might forget to take it with you... come on A: yes I work with out them but that is not the point of the statement...you imply that gloves should be mandatory and that without them, danger would happen... K9: Perhaps you better read what I DID write, never said mandatory, never said must wear, never said danger either... I just mentioned we had some on test and will be getting them. They wont stop an aggressive attack, they simply stop skin from coming off in accidental bites. A: it's like those that choose to train ONLY using food rewards, wonder what happens when their pockets run dry? K9: They plan better next time? Why am I suddenly responsible for every training reinforcer or trainer that has limits or errors? I simply mentioned a pair of gloves... K9: Protective clothes in any type of activity are smart, if I was using a grinder I could say "I would rather learn how to hold the grinder so it doesnt shoot crap in my eye" or just wear the glasses, all the arguments of "what happens if I leave my glasses at home" still are the same arent they? Put the gloves in your gear bag with your tugs. I have played tug with dogs for 20 years plus, I can train a dog not to touch my hands, yes it isnt hard, once trained the dog will not target my hands, but he can still make a mistake or so can I. There are dogs that have learned to target the hands of the handler because it makes (or has made) the handler let go or react, these dogs need to be trained the rule that "you touch my hands the game ends". To teach them this, they have to touch your hands so that you may mark the event that you dont want to see. K9: No reply to any of this I see... K9: Our industry needs to come out of the dark ages and take care of handlers and dogs, gloves do both. A: I've never felt training dogs is an industry, K9: Industry - Group of productive organizations that produce or supply goods, services, or sources of income. The professional trainers in this thread would fall into that description I would say. If you would have preferred I had said "our profession needs to ...." that would be the same thing. A: nor do I feel that I am in the dark ages...I've used tried and true methods, without force or intimidation for years.....and I take the blame when my dogs make a mistake, because I trained them. If that is dark ages training....so be it...I'll be happy to stay in a cave and train this way, but I know that I won't need gloves for tugging and I won't lose any blood either. K9: And for the rest of us, I guess we will have to resort to gloves lol First you dont think of dog training as an industry, but when I say " our industry needs to come out of the dark ages" you take that as an insult? Thought it wasnt an industry and you werent in it? K9: But Angelsun, no one is asking you to wear any... A: No, but your posts imply that anyone that does anything contrary to your methods, is archaic or just plain irresponsible *see above comment re: dark ages* K9: People read into things way too much, how about read the posts I am writing when I write them, bringing past personal feelings into threads now really isnt helpful. You keep saying "we", "anyone" and "people". It is very clear I am only addressing you in this thread where I have quoted you. Also since I mentioned gloves, no one but you has disagreed here? I am not sure what problem you have with me, I am sure it isnt the gloves though , perhaps as I said, offer to train everyone how to use tugs your way and then there will be no need for gloves... Helping is always better than critisism yeah? I really have no wish to argue on this with you (I dont even know you?) so lets just agree to disagree hey?

K9: ;) I actually could not find a pair to try lol but the last time I saw you, I did notice your biceps were getting bigger, now I know why....

K9: All input and experience is valuable in some way brings up a good point that the style of gloves I am talking about may be of some help in dealing with aggressive dogs, but thats not the reason I chose the ones I did, these are simply for tug work, food work where you may get a graze or nip. A large dog that aggressively tries to bite will often break a finger, this still may happen with these gloves. Even the larger thicker gloves I tried first wouldnt be adequate protection for that.