Steve K9Pro

V: K9: maybe you dont, prey drive is the desire to chase, bite, banquish a fast moving item. If your dog was attempting to catch a bird, he would be in prey drive, but may lay on his belly & creep up to the bird very slowly. Prey drive doesnt have to be manic running around flat out, there must be some control sections to. V: K9: prey drive, like all the others do. There are 5 sections to a drive, what you are thinking of is drive peak.

A: K9: yep, thats it, simple chained in verbal command, you can add a physical action to if you like. A: K9: 34 cm is the legth of the piece of string.. lol. It depends on the dog, its drive etc. My super smart GSDs get it in about 10 reps, eg 30 seconds... A: K9: keep in mind, "gameness" isnt prey drive. Though they can look similar in action. A: K9: prey drive isnt aggression, prey aggression is a learned condition not a genetic one. Your dog may have other reasons to want to fight another dog, such as the gameness you mentioned. A: K9: all things being equal I would say no, it takes a little skill to get your dog accurately working in high drive, if it were me, I would be trying to extinguish your dogs gameness, this is done with a method of training that will raise your dogs threshold to the drives you dont want to see. Food, toys etc will not get your desired results with this dog when other dogs in around. A: K9: have been talking with NZ Police to organise aother trip over, but nothing solid. V: K9: ? A herding dog is usually loaded with prey drive... V: K9: whats an everyday thing?

K9: many would have you believe that LE is an e collar condition, but it isnt, & when using an e collar correctly, you wont raise stress in your dog as much as other types of training

K: K9: bring your note pad & questions with you, make sure you ask all the questions you need & you will gain a good knowledge of training in drive

K9: actually, learned helplessness is a stress related condition rather than anything to do with negative stimulus or environmental control. A dog can reach learned helplessness by being stuck in a fence, being yelled at, feeling sick & many other factors.

A: K9: the bill is in the mail... A: K9: Its only better than training with food if your dog has a stronger prey drive than food drive. Its about training the dog within its temperament rather than trying to apply a one size fits all training method. Another way to look it it is that when your dog runs off after a cat, bird etc, he wont be in food drive. At this stage it would be helpful to have your dog obedient whilst in prey drive. A: K9: yep, that would be me. K: K9: yes this is correct but its also important to know that your working with the dog rather than working against his genetic drives. A: K9: its confusing the dog, when you work your dog up with a ball, your building prey or play drive drive, you should reward with the ball to satisfy prey drive. I also prefer prey drive as it requires more focus & control the play drive. A: K9: yes, but that can be done with a single word. LL: K9: yes they can when they are conditioned to deal with this pressure & achieve success in the end. A good patrol dog will enjoy fighting a man even when the man is giving a hard fight to the dog, the dog values the win higher against a man who will fight him hard, even though there is more pressure to deal with & possibly pain envloved. Conditioning is the key to pressure. A: K9: this is one of the components, which is called prey drive development. This is the learning stage of the excercise. In the end, the dog can go into prey drive, although a controlled version of, on a command. A: K9: yes, really, it means that the you show the dog how to get drive satisfaction with a ball/toy etc. Then the dog knows that you are part of his satisfaction, & it will take a certain action from him to get this satisfaction. Focus & self control will also be required. A: K9: there is much to this work, adding corrections deminsih drive, so no I wouldnt add a correction, the dog would not get the prey item. A: K9: your talking about using both food & a tug as a primary motivator, in the learning phase thats ok but IMO, motivators must be faded out & the drive triggered by a command. Then items are not required. A: K9: when you have moved to the proofing stage, this should mean the dog is trained to your desired level, he should always obey, or he is still in training. This drive theory & three phase philosophy is explained over about 2 hours in just about all my seminars, as diagrams & demos help get it straight in your mind. PGM: M: K:9: Myszka is correct, lets use the terms teach train & proof. Teaching is teaching the mechanics of the excercise, how the dog needs to work, no corrections. Training is practicing or training the known moves & the dog will go through the correction phase in this section, Once the dog is working at a level at which the handler is happy, the transition begins out of training & into proofing, proofing contains no corrections as the dog has passed the point in which it needs them. M: K9: lol... A: K9: when the dog is being taught something, corrections arent fair as the dog doesnt fully understand what he is supposed to do. Proofing means your dog is trained, if thats the case, corrections arent required, if they still are required, its not trained.

K9: you can look here Its teaching the dog how to complete excercises & achieve drive satisfaction, very powerful tool when you have a high prey drive dog that will comply with your commands to achieve its own satisfaction

PGM: K9: As Dennis said, I too did read in a US K9 Journal about this study, it isnt mythical. At first you said it was mythical as you could not locate it on the web, within 5 minutes I gave you links & contacts. Try contacting the people & ask them to reference it for you, here is another tip, contact Herm Sprenger & ask them.... PGM: K9: the comparison from pinch collars to checks is made using the same operating proceedure on each collar, so if using the same techniques with each collar produces injury with a check chain, that is enough for me. You also havent commented about my actual experiences.... PGM: K9: safer? I think thats what the mystical study shows? PGM: K9: they are, only banned in Victoria... PGM: K9: well simply it cant, but unlike you, Im not talking about experience with my one dog, Im talking of 1000's of dogs & handlers. Dog is unruly, the design of a check chain when leash is handled correctly will see the chain on the lwest part of the neck, where it is least effective, it requires more force to apply the same level of correction that a prong or even a correctly placed martingale will apply. That extra force impacting the throat of the dog can cause scar tissue to form. PGM: K9: you may as well have a spiked collar on with sharpened spikes, all your doing is giving me an irrelavant scenario. You can fit a check chain to any dog & it will recieves no correction if you dont fit a leash?

Inthedoghouse: K9: then this person must have a ton of evidence showing dogs attacking people when any type of aversive was applied, check chain, prong collar etc. This is an old story put out by the e collar bashers, how can you seriously believe that a dog can learn something from one single experience? Inthe dog house: K9: of course they have a reason to lie, to support their dislike for the prodcuts. Why did the RSPCA lie then? People lie for two main reasons, to avoid punishment or gain reward....

K9: quick update: the info was compiled by Janice Frasche' , some of it came from a Anne Marie Silverton seminar. The email address on the report is : - [email protected] There are several other autopsy reports on military dogs if you look deep enough, several conducted in the UK, when they were trying to ban correction collars from military training.

P: K9: I have the study saved, but the link is no longer active, the information is on a saved page if you would like it. If you send me an email, I will send you what I have. It doesnt contain autopsy reports but talks of them. I have come accross many dogs though myself with injuries from check chains, as I said. To me, that goes in line with the study.

M: K9: as a matter of fact I do know that, many of my programs are orientated around human treatment options but include dog behaviour... It takes a lot of study to treat canine behaviour issues, in mnay fields & the learning never stops. M: K9: of course the most importnat part is getting the parents of the dog or person on the same page as the instructor, they will be the ones putting in the time, not me. Imprinting a behaviour for me is easy, getting the owners to replicate that in my opinion takes the owners to know & understand the reasons why.

K9: there are various comparisons that have been documented from time to time on the use of check chains, prongs, halters flat collars. I have also come accross many dogs that have scar tissue issues that had been diagnosed as damage caused by check chain use.

K9: very welcome & great work Cindy & Elwyn. People should know that I evaluate the dog, write a program & provide demonstration & follow up. Cindy & Elwyn have done the work with Toffee. I teach people how to understand their dog, read it & work with it, then & then only can they rehab serious issues like Toffee (Im pleased to say) HAD! lol.. Most people would have put Toffee down, & one could hardly blame them as the aggression she displayed was extensive to say the least. Toffee is an extremly affectionate & warm dog to people AND other dogs, she just had some issues upon meeting other dogs, I suspect she had suffered at the jaws of another dog or many other dogs before being taken on by Cindy & Elwyn. When she played with my GSD Kayne, after we had quenched her fear a little, play bows, playfull rolls, nip & chase games all came out, this was the first time we had seen the real Toffee.. Certainly a dog worth spending time on.. I have a thousand case studies similar, it teaches me that time + dedication = results!

ML: K9: I cant see where I said the damage occurs in the early stages. Can you also tell us how you kept a close eye on the inside of your dogs neck? What did research indicate? ML: K9: are they examining the insides of the dogs neck? ML: K9: Im not familiar with collar tugging method, can you elaborate on what you do (or did) Do you for example, walk down the street, the dog may start to pull & you give a little tug on the collar via the leash, the dog slows down & you proceed perhaps? ML: K9: & I still havent asked you to or use one, we need to be clear on that fact.

M: K9: Yep! you'll see. M: K9: attack me & see, on lookers wont be disapointed. M: K9: what are we celebrating, limb removal? :rolleyes: M: K9: born ready, bring it on!

M: K9: yes I have heard that about Polish popppyseed cakes! :rolleyes:

ML: K9: knowing from your previous posts that you wont use anything that you feel is inhumane, have you researched the damage that this type of collar can can through even correct use? Its interesting that you feel strongly about not using an electronic collar which in proven tests causes zero physical harm, but are happy using a tool that research shows can cause physical harm...

ML: K9: that certainly doesnt mean that he/she isnt bothered by the barking, only a small percentage of the population will voice complaints... Ml: K9: your neighbour/s (I guess you have more than 1?) will not be concerned about the dog ten houses down the street that barks more than yours.

K9: Muttlover, can I ask what sort of correction collar you use?

Muttlover: K9: I cant see where any one is asking you to use a collar? Muttlover: K9: I might mention that in many cases, barking is caused by stress. Why does your dog bark so much? ML: K9: Something else that needs to be considered is, you will be building an anti dog community with your noisy dog that will no doubt, be annoying your neighbours. I would like to know your thoughts on the RSPCA approving the transportation standards of sheep from Australia?

K9: at the end of the day, people need a solution to their problem, not a persons political stance. That, quite simply is why e collars are still sold by the thousands.

K9: Eddy, I would like to know, do you have a problem with the collars because they are restricted by law or do you keep mentioning that to support your dislike for the collars.

TF: K9: Timing, over correction (even verbal) missuse of any tool can traumatise a dog. I find it interesting that yo refer to the other type of training as "motivational". Its a weel documented fact that dogs will not learn without positive re inforcement & every traditional training method includes motivation & reward. It also adds negative re inforcement when the dog is doing something that you find undesireable. Any correction that causes physical or emotional damage is missuse of the method.

K9: I would like it if you could define the term "ruin" for us? I can list many dogs that have been rehomed or euthanised because they had behaviour problems, many owners had felt this was their only choice when purely positive training had failed to give results. I feel that its a poor understanding of a method or missuse of a method that will ruin a dog, & that isnt limited to those that use aversives either, poor timing with positive re inforcement can escalate a fault quicker than any other method.