Steve K9Pro

K9: you start by allowing the dog to capture the item more frequently in the beginning, then it gets harder & harder to capture as training progresses. ******************************** K9: so you put her on a leash & when she shows aggression, give HIM the item. M: K9: prey drive is the desire to chase & bite a fast moving item. LL: K9: In this stage with a puppy, you will get more drive if you throw the tug directly into the ground, makng it bounce high, the change of direction after the bounce really revs them up. LL: K9: hmm, I havent watched them, lol, in person Bernhard is very good, but he really is a Sch trainer, Im not sure how much you would get?

K9: weak nerves are a problem in any training program, what more often than not happens is that the dog has a low threshold to avoidance or defence drive, & keeps jumping in & out of those drives, thus cannot stay in food or prey drive & motivation keeps disapearing. Weak nerves are usually the case for a washout working or sport dog.

LL K9: so you choose a dog based on prey drive, it makes sense to train in that drive, correct? LL" K9: Ok, after playing with the litter & choosing a pup, I take that pup from the litter & go to a fishing rod, this has a line attached & rag to that. This gives me the ability to stand back 6ft (length of rod) & watch while I put max movement into the rag, without much effort on my part. It also takes me out of the equation & make sure that the dog is chasing the rag in full prey drive, not rank or pack drive driven by littermates. It also makes sure the dog has no conflict with me, as Im 6 foot away. LL: K9: may actually help, pups love to chew when teething. LL: K9: chewing isnt permitted in my work either, but as you can see, I have no problem fixing that later. Its more of a problem for me being a contester for the prey so I dont mind young pups chewing.

K9: I think you will find Toms tape is an old one, Bernhard Flinks is what is known as a drive master. Food though is more widely accepted, so its going to suit more dogs.

LL: K9: think in terms of drive satisfaction. If you have a desire to make money, will you settle for a piece of chocolate instead? If the dog has a strong prey drive, & you intend using that drive, working with that drive will also aid in developing that drive, ie teaching the dog the power it has in the drive. LL: K9: its only of any use if the dog has a low threshold to a moderate or high prey drive. No use if it has low prey drive or weak nerves. If you have an equally motivated dog by food & prey, I still prefer prey as a drive is an adrenalin based behaviour, there is a greater adrenalin flow for a prey item than a piece of food. Food isnt often trying to escape or even hard to catch. The more adrenalin, the higher the charge in the dog, the more energy it will put into satisfying that drive. LL: K9: yes as chase is not a drive of its own, its a component of prey. LL: K9: When working with a whole litter at a time, I use a broomstick, piece of rope off each side & rag attached to both sides & run around the pen. I am looking for the dog with the greatest desire to capture the rag. I then move to a fishing line also, with rag. Then bounce it around with the pup I have chosen from the first excercise. LL: K9: no, I just tug the rag from the pups mouth. In my work, I want the dog to bite & hold until I say let go. I will let the pup capture the item & then it lays down & chews it, when it drops it (dead prey) I tug it away & frustrate the pup again. This teaches the pup not to let go. By the time it wont, its old enough to teach the out. LL: K9: Its my belief that you can greatly increase, or, raise a dogs drive to its genetic capability between the ages of 6 weeks to 12 months. 12 months & beyond is where I go for intense focus of that developed drive. You can start anytime, but I dont think you will reach the same levels you would if you start young. No one could prove or disprove this theory though. I agree that the drive is set by genetics, but development teaches the dog how best to use this drive to gain satisfaction.

H: K9: Every training method needs to have suitability for the temperament of the dog, of course. No I dont use "double trouble" or automatic corrections as they are called. I never wait until the dog doeswnt comply to do anything.

K9: they may, but will soon be met with failure & give up, thats just part of the training. Create a mindset that a Patrol dog can beat 5 attackers, give him the skills & he will, because his mind wont let him down. For stopping a dog from doing something, it must fail in every attempt until it no longer tries, to get a dog to do something, it must succeed & gain the rewards every single time....

K9: you may also look at what type of reward motivation is available....

K9: something I mention to many people when Im running a workshop is how to create a mindset in the dog, & how important that is. Whether its having the dog believe that it cant catch the neighbours cat without my approval or that it cant break the stay, its a mindset creation that I believe is a requirement for high reliability dogs. Now whilst some may scrath their head to grasp this, I give this example: - If I have $500 in my wallet, & I remove it from my back pocket & throw it on the roof of your house, I then say to all attendants of the seminar, the first one to jump onto the roof in a single bound can have the cash. No one moves... why? because they dont believe the can make the jump, its a mind set.....

K9: it may be the same in some instances to the dog, however when this is explained to people, they seem to watch the dog for compliance too long. I think being driven by the dogs actions adds another place to go wrong. Eg: what happens if I command, the dog starts to sit & then doesnt .." then I grab leash & correct, the moment is gone... I tell them, command, then pop pop pop on the leash until the dog is in the position. Then immediatly release & reward. When repeated as little as 4 - 6 reps, you will see a noiticeable speed improvement on the dog. Any dog, give it a try, method one where you wait & see, & method mine, in which you dont... You will see improvement, I have only tried a few hundred thousand times lol...

K9:

K9: yes, well as I didnt say it.... AT the beginning, the action line may be command (delay) correct (guideance) - comply reward. As time goes by the delay gets shorter & the guidance is not required. When the command & correction need to be given almost simulatneously, I add more distraction. K9: what I mean by active is that I dont wait for the dog to tell me the next step, be it correction for non compliance,or reward for comnpliance, I have my own steps & they will be carried out, regardless of the dogs actions. The dog can affect the timing only.

E: K9: can you show me where that was said? I cant see it.. It may happen when your about to start weaning, but not at the start. E: K9: nope, not familiar with the term, can you explain?

K9: each dog I put through three stages, teach, train, proof. When I have gotten to the proofing stage, corrections are finished. If the dogs performance starts to drop, I move back into training for a period of time in which the dog will recieve corrections. I dont attempt to proof the dog before its ready, hence I wont then be reacting if I give the dog a command & it doesnt comply.

E: K9: Learned helplessness is a symptom of stress, its a risk in any training program as each time the dog is required to offer a new behaviour, stress will be induced. The dog learns to avoid the correction with fast immediate compliance. E: K9: yes, pro active training makes me the trainer, not the dog training me. E: K9: when I see the dog complying, I raise the level of distraction until I find the dog not complying, keep training until I have overcome that distraction & reach the desired level. Then I, as the pro active trainer, decide when the dog stops being corrected. The dog is weaned off the corrections & feels that its compliance has been fast enough to avoid the corrections... Stress is controlled through motivation for success.

E: K9: sorry I havent read all your posts to get an idea of what your talking about here or your thoughts on balance. E: K9: I mean, if you zing & the dog does not comply, what next? Anything you do will be a reaction, making teh training program, timing & consistency all determined by the dog, not the trainer. E: K9: I dont have any problems with you disagreeing, its just what I have found in most cases. I certainly didnt intend on going on this long, I have simply replied to clarify what I have said. I havent changed my view after considering what you have said (typed). But thats ok, I was probably never going to.

E: K9: I know this may seem to you that Im splitting hairs, but as you have pointed out the avoidance method of dog training is a 4 step process, my steps are 1. command. 2. correction. 3. compliance. 4. reward. Yours has no reward, so no +R. Other than that, you said "I give command, dog doesnt respond" If you mean, "IF the dog doesnt respond", this makes your training program reactive, not pro active, this means your program will be driven by the dog... E: K9: I certainly can see that it can serve as a correction, its just that sometimes it will serve as a correction & sometimes it wont, when it doesnt, you need to react again & give a physical correction. Every time I issue a command, I use the same 4 steps above, every time. Not, * I give command * Dog doesn't respond * The chain "zings" * The hanlder reacs & gives physical correction. * Compliance * Reward Its getting complicated & you want to keep it simple. You will find that if the dog drops attitude, looses drive etc with correction, your reward base is lacking. Thats been my experience anyway.

E: K9: Ok, I have the issue with the "IF" part of the sentence. Not questioning you at all, just when you say "if the dog..." I see a picture of you give a command, zing the chain, the dog doesnt comply & then you correct. This is an out of sequence event as far as Im concerned.

E: K9: none of these refer to shutting the dog down, in another post you did say, over correcting your dog would shut it down, the simple point Im making is that OVER correcting any dog will shut it down. Its not important though. E: K9: My issue with warnings is that, if you follow through, you may be double correcting, or if you dont follow through, your weakening your corrections... When training this method, I dont give a command, then see if the dog complies, then decide on a correction or not, it recieves a correction every time until I have reached the level of compliance I require at the level of distraction Im likely to find. I find this a quicker way to get the dog to the proofing or "trained" stage & I can do away with corrections all together. I also find that this provides a higher level of reliability.

E: K9: I think I quoted the entire sentence, but if I havent, the section I quoted & replied to still stands, over correcting any dog will shut it down. E: K9: I can for sure, but I can also feel the difference between the zing of the chain & an actual correction too... So what we can feel or hear isnt really important. That zing of the collar is another reason I dont like checks, it adds this (what I would call) problem. E: K9: I would tend to suggest that the dogs that react to the zing of the chain have at some stage been over corrected & or are nervous of corrections. E: K9: so she hasnt paired the correction to the collar, but the zing from it.

E: K9: I know it sounds different to you & I, sometimes its easy for the dog to make a mistake though. Here's what I mean, light a match & heat up a spoon with it, have someone watch you. Then quickly touch their arm with another spoon, they will jump, even though they werent burned. E: K9: applying a correction that is excessive will extinguish the drive of any dog. E: K9: perhaps, but I doubt it.

E: K9: pairing or chaining in events to your training can sometimes be non productive. For example: K9: if this dog moves causing the check chain to move, what does she think she is being corrected for? Also, when you chain a warning into your correction, what happens when the dog gets off leash & you have no correction or warning of. What makes dogs work off leash when trained with check chain corrections is their desire to avoid an aversive. If they have one step, a warning step available to them prior to a correction, they will often require this warning to get them to do something, so it isnt seen as an aversive to be avoided, rather a warning you "mean it" this time. IE: the next time you give an offleash command, the dog doesnt hear the zing & feels that no correction is possible. Like I said though, Im talking from my corner of the world where I require 100% reliability 100% of the time, mistakes arent an option.

W: K9: firstly, I cant see where anyone here declared how "good" we are? Secondly, if your going to jump into defence drive every time someone doesnt agree with you, you will spend a lot of time there... They are banned due to ignorance, thats already been discussed. W: K9: I dont think you will have a lot of success here either if you tell people what they can & cant say in their posts. W: K9: If life was only about training "beginner" dogs, Im sure the flat collar is all that ever be required, but as it isnt, other tools can be useful. K9:

E: K9: yes & some just like to say they do one thing, when they do another... lol. E: K9: then maybe you can tell me whats aversive about the chain singing through the ring? E: K9: in my post Im not actually referring to you, but many. Some people feel they are getting great results, until they compare those to others results via a differnet method. The comparision is required to ensure ones training levels are high ona world scale, rather than ones own personal history.. E: K9: sorry again, "you" in this post is not referring to you personally, I havent seen your work to comment. E: K9: I feel the idea behind a piece of equipment is to get results with as little effort as possible. I feel a prong collar on any dog vs a check chain is a better tool, not because it provides a higher level of correction, but more levels. E: K9: as is mine, until I have fully researched something I keep it open, but when I have made an informed decision, I dont like to re open the case over & over again, unless circumstances change.

LL: K9: oh hardly..... Wagalot: K9: this confuses me, why would you think that a prong collar removes the positive reward base of training? They are used on the same principle as a check chain. I have to wonder if you have used one? Erny: K9: What I was trying to get at was, you get results with a method you stick to it as you may be nervous of trying something new that may not work. You deem your success on your own results, rather than compare those to others who may show you the bar is way higher. E: K9: this is a two fold answer, 1. when I say service dog I was referring to my own corner of the world, law enforcement service dogs. 2. many people use the e collar & dont say so. Its always nice to say "I use a flat collar & my skills", but rarely is that the case. E: K9: I has nothing to do with the intensity of the correction, its got to do with the consistency of it. If your dog see's the zip of the chain as an effective correction, then thats fine, if it see's it as a warning of things to come, I dont train that way. I actually do think that some equipment is better than the other...