Steve K9Pro

K9: thats correct & you must make it more difficult to win the item with multiple commands to keep her motivated. One word, inflation...

K9: Thanks Brooke, on the subject, if peoples training methods are falling short of the dogs ability, you will fall below the "interest" level of your dog, this means that the dogs mind falls out of the window in which it will learn from the training, simply because it's board & finds your method unstimulating. People who attended a workshop will now understand that a window of opportunity needs to be created so that the dogs mind is adequately stimulated & not over stimultaed. When you learn how to place a dog into this window, results come fast as every minute of training is absorbed by the dog. I hear people talking about a dog reaching a plateau in training & they feel it's perfectly normal. I dont think it is at all. I cant see someone coming to see me for a couple of lessons & getting no where & accepting, "oh your dogs going through a plateau"... As for how I train, I explain everything I do, no secrets. Training is always guided by the goals of the handler.

T: K9: believe it or not, she isnt frustrated by the dogs on the street, she is frustrated with you stopped her from doing what she wants to. She doesnt see you as the "key" to her drive satisfaction, so this means more prey games, that over time become intensive in the focus & concentration department. Once the light goes off in her head that you are the key to prey drive satisfaction, frustration will be replaced with focus (on you). T: K9: thats because she needs to know thats how to get satisfaction, food drive training is different to food rewarding. Training in food drive will get you a faster response also, but not as fast as prey in your dog. Once your dog knows the steps, the response will be lightning.

M: K9: Lucky you didnt ask Mishelle, or maybe if you had, I wouldnt give him back after 3 days... :D Better watch out, did you see him nuzzling my leg Saturday.. lol

K9: now that this one is done, I am going to work on the Vic one, date should be 18th November though. Probably near Beaconsfield. Thats all I have right now. Will be posting a new thread soon about workshops.

S: K9: Most welcome, I'm glad that I was able to help complete the picture. Brooke: K9: Hey Brooke, always welcome.. Nice Shepherd pup BTW... I got aq kick out remembering one of the success stories I was "going" to tell was about you. lol.. MS: K9: no problems, I try to answer every email I get even when they cross the 1500 a day average, lol. MS: K9: most welcome, it wont be the last workshop, just the last one this year in NSW. Tarka: K9: I didnt see any dementure, remember what you see as a problem, I see as POTENTIAL. Your puppy has a lot of potential, given direction they can be a very capable dog. Training in drive is exactly the method I use for gaining high control in cities, places to train are a little limited though. Just be sure that what ever goals you have, Ruby at first glance seems to have the requirements to exceed them... ******************** K9: thanks everyone for your kind words, a couple of things I would like to mention whilst I have the spotlight... 1. I would also like to thank Myszka, as we all should. This is the 4th workshop she has hosted & I can tell you no money has changed hands. I am so busy, I would not have had the time to put in the time to organise all of the attendants, so she volunteered . Without her, they would not have been run. She does this and many other dog activities for the love of the animal. As all of you can see, she has put in a huge effort with her Dobe Rex & everyone, including my wife, wants him...lol... So again a big thanks Myszka.. 2. These open workshops are really a big question & answer session, where if you have an isolated problem you may spend the day listening to solutions to everyone elses problems. Each workshop has been run with a large percentage of the people coming from DOL etc, everyone has been extremely patient with each other & each others dogs, well done. I run these things with no pre submitted anything, I dont even know who is coming before I walk out at start time, just how many people for catering calculations.. I answer all the questions on the fly & they dictate the direction of the day. Im glad you all got something from it. 3. As mentioned, this is the last one for 2005 I'm running at home, I have one more open workshop Im doing in Victoria in November & 2 closed ones for commercial LE clients. I really have very little time left this year. However, we have such a huge response to these workshops, so many people enjoying attending & others want to attend more, we plan on putting on many more in 2006. We have strong interest in Qld, Victoria & Tassy, plus many NSW people wanting more info. I intend running a few dedicated workshops that will be topic specific, things such as dog aggression, training in drive, advanced use of the remote collar, behaviour problems etc etc are all under the heading of most likely workshops to be run... I will try & keep you all posted when they will be on, & the topics covered, & I'm always interested in feedback on what you would like to learn about. As I explain, I dont follow any method out of a book, most everything I do is something I have put together myself, based on experience, practability, testing & common sense. I find these, based on the people I consult withs results, the fastest & easiest way to overcome training & behaviour problems. Finally, all of you should know this, any dog that attended the last or any of the 4 that Monika has run have even come close to some of the dogs I have worked with in terms of bad behaviour, there was no dog that even come close to annoyng for me there on Saturday, so dont feel bad about any way your dog reacted. Some of the dogs I used provided excellent examples of how these methods can be almost instantly effective.. Thank you all once again. Steve

H: K9: I guess any method miss interpreted poses a risk to the dog, but here I am only talking about the method, I never encourage anyone to internet train their dog. When you actually see this carried out, there is very little stress on the dog. Have taught thousands of people, not one problem yet. H: K9: I feel that the decider of how the dog will feel about the aversive is the attitude of the person supplying it. H: K9: how about if everytime I tapped your shoulder I gave you $100?? You have to look at it this way, it's not how you see the stim, it's how the dog see's it. H: K9: Im making some headway in my workload so should be organising things over the next two weeks, the date is likely to be around 18th November. LL: K9: I really learned these terms to pass exams, after that I have found little use for them when it comes to training dogs. They sure can make you look smart when your talking to a client though, lol, not as smart as someone who can get great results lol...

A: K9: never too late, but your overall success may be less, that is largely dependant on your consistency of the new program. A: K9: it actually works best on high drive dogs with solid nerves. But you can start at any time.

A: K9: more or less, yes. A: K9: yes it does, in other methods you have to reach a correction level to overcome & extinguish drive, this is not so with my method & low stim, the dog thinks about something else. Here is a scenario, Patrol dog trained to bite man in full prey drive, dog is after man & you recall the dog just as he is about to bite, why does he come? He comes as the training program has taught him that drive satisfaction only comes via me... A: K9: lol, its not breaking focus, thats extinguishing drive, aversives reduce drive, thats one of the pro's & cons of thats style of training. E collar used my way doesnt loose drive, that's one of the many pro's. If your dog goes into drive, & you need to correct him to keep compliance, thats because he believes he can get satisfaction with out you, your now only left with taking drive away, making him the "biddable" dog you had before. In my work I often need that drive, so I cant take it away... & yes PGM, thats correct, you must have had a good teacher

A: K9: as do I, same as any working dog, its just when the dog cant see nor hear you or does make (even a rare) mistake, your not lost. A: K9: again, its not just about making every episode a training session, its about not loosing out totally. Your dog is 50 feet from you, it takes a dash after something, your not going to catch that dog on foot, but the 27mhz signal from your remote will. Think of your dog running up to another, & half way there you give a drop command that "will" be obeyed, everytme. A: K9: the remote doesn replace training, it raises the compliance level. If your walking in with the shopping right now, is your dog off or on leash? The bet is that if your dog is trained to a high level of compliance yet, it's on leash, thats not the case with the e collar most times. Having the remote "is" on leash, without the restraint of the leash... Remotes fit nicely on your belt, lanyard around neck, utility vest or belt, you learn to find that button real fast. & remember you will only need to press it as a last resort, if your dog doesnt comply, or you dont think he can hear you. Commands are completed & the dog weans off the stim, thats like saying I dont tug on my check chain anu longer, but its there if I need it. Same thing only with the remote comes freedom... quickly.

A: K9: All training that I do is "goal dependant". The clients goal dictate the program direction. With a Law Enforcement dog, I dont wean the dog off the collar or the stim as I always want that tap on the shoulder. When you think about it, if you have bought the colalr, why not use it? If your pet is running toward a distraction, its inportant he recalls. Lets add some weight. Lets say that distraction is on the other side of the highway, & the wind is blowing in your face, dog cant hear nor see you... That tap on the shoulder is a mighty handy thing to have. The other thing that a tap on the shoulder does is distract from the behaviour, oits called a behavioural interuptor... Dog chasing cat will need high stim to extinguish prey drive, dog chasing cat that understands this training method feels stim & "needs" to know where you are to give the command... It has forgotton all about the cat without loss in drive. & of course I have a program for competitions where you cant use the collar....

Erny: K9: now add one more dynamic, no matter how fast you drive, K9 Force has the ticket & you will only fly if you have obeyed the road rules... By adding myslef as the only constant determining factor, I am the first consideration the dog needs to have. This is essential when you have a highly trained high drive animal that you require 100% compliance from.

K9: heard my name called so I will just jump in the middle, I have had a quick read through & would like to make some comments... H: K9: If your starting with a dog that isnt showing handler aggression, & your in control of the training program you will never get either learned helplessness nor aggression. In fact if the dog was suffereing from Learned helplessness, the symptoms are shutting down. Through this discussion people are spending a lot of time talking about punishment, I never ever punish the dog. The dog may suffer consequences for its own actions made possible by me. There is a difference & I will tell you, a huge one at that. The other thing that must be looked at is the way in which I apply a correcting, my body language & vocal tonation dont portray anything but positive. The corrections are so minute as I dont train the dog under a distraction level it hasnt worked up to. A: K9: The fastest way to get a dog to do anything is by placing the dog in high drive. You have separated the two above but thye way I train, I combine them both. The dog is looking for prey drive satisfaction & the e collar is telling the dog that he is going the wrong way about it, I use the e collar most often as a communicator, not a correction device. Kavik: K9: the action line you describe is avoidance training, which can be completed with any correction tool including ane collar but I dont use them that way. H: K9: as do I, however I feel that when explaining someone how to apply this method, they always end up in consistent in the corrections & rewards. The dog starts to wonder " do I have to comply? is this the time I get a correction". It also lends itself to me asking, do we want the dog complying to avoid punishment, or competitively complying to beat consequence. There is a whole different mid set to the training on both handler & dog parts & as I am always seeking drive, this method always (IME) produces more consistent results in higher drive. As I start with low / zero distraction, the dog is only recieving constant corrections for a short period of time, then the dog through my program starts to beat the corrections, thus avoiding them, once I see this increase in speed & drive, I add more distraction & the dog knows there is a process to winning (avoiding corrections). A: K9: in the beginning yes, in the end no. In the end the stim gives the dog the hint that a command is on the way, thats command completed will give drive satisfaction. Its a c ommunicator, tap on the shoulder. The dog experiences zero negative from it, thus no loss in drive. Drive is a dynamic that most people dont consider until its gone. A: K9: only in the beginning, in the end, he see's it as he is going away from the drive satisfaction that he seeks. A: K9: it isnt the same, but you can get close, the dog wont learn anything from one rep, but over time with timing, you can teach the dog to comply faster until he outperforms the correction. When the dog see's this, which ideally should happen between the 10 & 15 rep, he gains pleasure from his success. I recently had a LGD attend training, with no high desire for food, praise or prey, the only motoivator left is avoidance of correction. In 15 minutes the dog was positively motivated bia this method to comply quickly & beat the correction. A: K9: its the first of a never ending series that will continue until you comply. Guidance is also applied & the dog also must "know" the command & not be highly distracted. H: K9: yes, but if the e collar isnt considered an aversive by the dog, what does the stim become? A motivator... the key to drive satisfaction. H: K9: low level e collar stims are not corrections, punishers or painful, so I dont have an issue using them when teaching. H: K9: I agree, but only in theory, I have run workshops over most of Aust & people see a lot different reactions than they were expecting... A: K9: yes but forget the e collar for a moment, multiple corrections allow you to apply - R over a greater period of time & use a lot lower level corrections. Instead of choosing a correction level to over come, cease & desist the behaviour, you apply lower level corrections that dont stop until the dog offers to quit the behaviour or comply with command... A: K9: Learning is teaching mechanics of command, no corrections, correction/ training stage is practice with consequences. Proofing is whe your all done & dog requires no corrections to comply under thye level of distraction you have trained to. So answser is, in training/correction phase. I will continue...

K9: Well thanks everyone for the kind words. I must say that I found all your dogs very well behaved, & a pleasure to work with. They made me look good!

A: K9: lol, we really on,y touched on the method at the workshop. The food is spat out your mouth over your left shoulder, if the dog isnt in the heel position the food hits the ground, the dog doesnt want that is there is a rule in place, dropped food is misse food. A: K9: try cabanossi.

EA: K9: wow, thanks for confirming what I have been doing the past 10 years works... EA: K9: as I said, there are several components to it. As you werent at the workshop, I wouldnt expect you to be up on those components. EA: K9: I dont like the dog focussing on the hand, it looks too much like luring. I'll take your advice on & pass it on to anyone who isnt having success wityh what I have taught. As I havent come accross any yet, I dont think I will be calling you for further info. EA: EA: EA: K9: so you teach the dog that food comes from the hand, then spend time teaching the dog that food doesnt come from the hand. Ok I get it... EA: K9: again Eddy, no bidy said you cant... EA: K9: the thread was started as Alibear was looking for clarification on something she picked up at my workshop, not a request for different heeling methods, & just in case you missed it the first two times, no one said this was the ONLY way, or that other ways wouldnt work.

P: K9: this is for competition heeling, not distance commands.

EA: K9: yes it would have to be if its was in YOUR best interest for the dog to catch the food, however, if you were at the workshop you would see there are many rules & parts to this program that mean that its in the DOGS best interest to catch the food. EA: K9: maybe, with my method you dont need hand signals... Getting trodden on? I suppose thats never has happened when your training Eddy? EA: K9: thanks Eddy, I cant see where anyone said that you couldnt... EA: K9: where has anyone said that you would get a deduction if your dog didnt look at your face? Simply they didnt. Whats your point Eddy...?

E: K9: no problem, let me know what you come up with.

K9: They definately all are not, though some are, I dont base training around entire dogs.

E: K9: Erny, the method will work with any dog, but will not suit all goals & isnt a solution to temperament problems. I dont use the exact same method training a pet as I do solving aggression as I do training a working dog, hope that simplifies things for you. E: K9: pro active trainers decide how the training will progress, it has nothing to do with any one method. Its just not allowing the dog to dictate how things will be. Earlier, you said that you trained the same way, if thats the case, you shouldnt have any questions...

K9: no I dont find that it deminiushes the desire to please nor offer new behaviours, but having said that, I dont use one method of training for every dog either

K9: when I raise a working pup, it goes everywhere with me & lives with me. It doesnt run with the other dogs less Im there. Until the dog is trained it doesnt ever run free to live with other dogs. It is crated in house at nite, penned during the day if not with me.

K9: comon Myszka, you know what happens if you remove thye stimuli or trigger?

K9: with her on a leash she cant do any harm, the benefit would be that she gets no result from her aggression, this will render it pointless & reduce it.