Steve K9Pro

K9: command then comply = give food to dog is exchanging, if the dog has to work to earn the food plus work to eat the food, it builds drive. Have to really show you...

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LL: K9: yes its for drive building, or taking your presence away from the item when a dog is working it, then you also need a stick & rope. LL: K9: of course K: K9: it can be physical, but back tie him, get broomstick with 4 feet of rope on it & bumper on end, you stay still, use stick to move bumper.. K: K9: spin it around dropping it right in front of him, then pop it away when he looks at it, if he has enough prey drive, he will go for it, when he shows an improvement, verbal big praise & allow him to catch it, praise again. If he holds it & tugs it, work your way down the rope & run your hand over his head (no where near bumper) & down his chest. Then grab tie out & run him in small circles holding his head high, dont let him put it on the ground & chew it. As time goes on, make it gradually harder & harder to capture the bumper. Get him very interested in it & then dont alloow him to capture it, end the game with him failing to capture & dying for it. Next day he be even more keen. Again, only a few captures, ending with failure. When you have him screaming for it, use it without stick, in hand, start adding you to the satisfaction. Then start to play the same game, only away from tie out, when you have him circling you hard, ask for a sit. Then imm release when he does.

LL": & now lol. LL K9: is that the proof your looking for? lol...

PJ: K9: yes! & no... Training in drive (to get results) is done via a program. Drive evaluation.. (see if dog has drives & nerves to suit your work). Drive development..(build drive to its potential) Build basic drive skills (bite development, fetch, retrieve (basic) depending on your goal) Drive control (the addition of formal commands, sit, sit hold, drop, drop hold, heel..) Training drive satisfaction (ignor one drive motivator to gain success form handlers motivator) Training under distraction. Thats the basic plan... So as I dont know what you have done, & you dont know the individual steps within each above step, I cant tell you whats right & whats wrong. Step one is important as not everyone needs control in drive, most other methods work on lower drive & raising thresholds to drives, which is easier, just doesnt have the dynamic action often required for some goals...

K: K9: well as mentioned, I cant say as I havent seen you. K: K9: you need to develop his available drive, this means back tie, frustrate him chasing a n item. Build the drive until its very high before you use it, it wouldnt be unreasonable to assume that this may take two weeks, 10 mins a day or more... K: K9: satisfaction is coming to easy & his drive isnt built.. K: K9: all it will probably get you is the idea your dog lacks drive.

K: K9: I feel that when training in drive, you have top build drive to a useable level before using said drive. Too much control I feel comes from when you make the dog complete the excercises rather than the dog offerss them in drive. The first way is not the dog working in drive, its you lowering/extinguishing drive.. K: K9": depends on your goals, if he was my dog & I had plans for him, I would "have" to get him working in prey, food isnt any good for what I do, but if it will meet your needs than there is no problem with it. I still say, better to work in food DRIVE than exchange food fopr compliance, there is a huge difference... ************************** LL: K9: yeah yeah, lol, I have heard dogs that have a weka bite cant be cured, that wont go forward during agitation cant be cured & so many other things. I have come to the conclusion that cant be cured translates to one of two things:- 1. They dont know how, or. 2. They dont want to spend the time. I feel that there are also two types of trainers, one that has been shown how to train certain excercises in a specific pattern, & those who know how & why the dog works & thus can overcome things that fall outside the pattern... LL: K9: problems are always bigger when they are your own problems, lol, also those problems always get smaller when you know how to fix them. LL: K9: not when your good at getting the dog to do what you want though...

M: K9: In his mind, he believes one ball gives more satisfaction than the other. LL: K9: these could all be possible, as Im not there its hard to tell, when writing my replies I have meant to write each & every time, "I could have trained the dog in less time its taken me to write this post".

PJ: K9: have her wait up to 30 seconds before releasing ball. PJ": K9: first, your dog can never capture the water... so plenty of frustration, not so much satisfaction. Second, if done right, you will be what is being focussed on in prey drive, so you dont need the ball... No, you wont be the prey item, but a component of the trigger & a big part of the satisfaction. Off to training field now...

PJ: K9: bring the ball high & to s atop, pause a second then command sit, the pause will cause an untrained dog to jump after the ball, & not be able to get it, to a trained dog, it raises self control in drive. PJ: K9: yes but one doesnt train self control. PJ: K9: Initially you just open the hand & let the ball fall. PJ: K9: takes while before the dog looks at you only. PJ: K9: train to gain control as I said above, add a little time before you drop the ball, do this all in the sit, then go to the drop, then heel steps. Pj: K9: I have no idea how you would guide flowing water vfrom a hose... The item isnt important, its the movement that is important. ********************************* A: K9: I suppose if your keen to add a negative association to something in one hit, yes, but I would rather use the low stim to teach the dog that what eveit is doing is not just as much fun as the dog thought it was, a few more reps will be required but it is just as effective without pain... So I only use the low stim for everything.

K9: no problem, I know what you mean. Just as an addition, I find that buying an e collar simply for correction training makes the tool a very expensive peice of equipment indeed. One of the things I say plenty throughout my manual is "never let the dog know the collar can hurt him". When I put the collar on the dog I want the dog 100% clear headed so we can work, not the dog wondering when I'm going to blast him...

A: K9: my method, focus & control works on several levels, but the e collar works as a behavioural interuptor, when trained in this method, the dog feels a light stim from the collar & has been trained to look for a command, that command complied with will see the dog (in training) recieve a higher value prey item. The collar coming opn also interupts the focus on the item the dog is chasing & makes it easier for the dog to control its drive. You are correct though in saying that, just about no amount of pain will deter a dog in high drive.

LL: K9: sorry, I meant, when you first seen the work I gave you, did you think that following them would help? LL: K9: lol, I guess its called desperation... To be honest, what I gave you isnt a drill I have used a lot, or ever really, I just came up with it when I saw what your dog wanted. It's lucky you have the skill to interpret it & make good use of it. My time with you was short, I usually am lucky enough to spend at least 2 hours with those working a problem like this, then see them again in 2 months, so I am really proud of the results you have achieved....

K: K9: In the small amount of time that I spent with him, I can tell you thaqt with persistance, he will find enough focus to work, but I will say he is a little borderline as far as drive goes. He also seemed a little "controlled" if you know what I mean? he seems to hesitate going into drive, some other parts of your training may be working against you there.

DM: K9: I guess it depends on your training methods, I find it unusual though that you would match a collar to a breed? I have found examples of every breed to fall into the very soft temperamented categorie to the very hard. Im not a person that chooses the collar by the weight of dog or its breed. I choose collars based on the amount of levels & availability of ultra low levels of stimulation. I do believe that a collar can stop a dog in a chase, however I believe its still done with low levels & training rather than pain. DM: K9: I actually have a 1200NCP, which I feel is a great collar, though I still use it right at the bottom end of the scale. I can wind the dial to full stimulation on my arm, & although its fairly unpleasant, if motivated I would walk right through it. I have also seen others using the 1200 who did try & blast a high drive GSD away from stock, the dog continued, although vocalising all the way until I took the remote from him. The 2000 I believe has the same levels of stim as the 1200 & I personally feel that the 1100 starts to high for any type of focussed training. DM: Kp: I havent used the Petsafe units at all, but I feel that these days Innotek make a good reliable product. I, again of my own personal opinion, believe that there are three main players in the electronic collar market, Dogtra, Tri Tronics & Innotek. I will also say that is the order I believe they fall into in terms of quality. I always tell people that too but when weighing up what to buy, one strong consideration is that Innotek do have an Australia based company that can warrant the units if you have any issues. I do feel since the introduction of the digital units, the Innotek product is quite good. There are still many trainers who feel that low stim collars are a waste of time as the dog issue high enough levels of stim, but that is not the way I train.. You might also look back in this thread & see that someone did mention that the did high stim their dog in a chase & it did not deter the dog, although the dog did vocalise. I feel that "remote pain" is a poor guide for the dog, remote communication is a lot better.

LL: K9: the beauty of drive is that it's almost unbreakable, & seeing a dog work in full drive is quite a thing, regardless of the excercise... I guess until you try everything, we cant say what is & what is not cureable... I might ask, from how long had he been marking birds, then how long had you tried to fix it, then after starting the prey drive drill, how long was it until the all age where his mouth was good?

Slim 1 : K9: yes, but I feel that you would benefit by using a key word to trigger your dogs prey drive, rather than him triggering off seeing the squeaky, this way, you wont always need the squeaky. S: K9: if he already knows the down command, it should be easy. Make sure he is confident that complying with the sit command will get him the ball. Then afyter you have worked him up, give him a sit command, then hesitate for half ba second, this will elevate his drive through frustration a little, then give your drop command, you may need to bend over & place the ball between his front paws to get him down, when he goes down, throw the ball out in front of him. Then work on him going down on command when this happens, throw the ball hard into the ground just in front of him. When you have a reliable sit & down in drive, add some focus by asking the dog to stay for 5 seconds, then get the ball & extend the time etc. Then start on heel. *************************** I wrote "K9: your avoidance training, useing ball as distraction. This in turn has raised her threshold to prey drive." PJ: K9: not for me to say, there is nothing wrong with it & its the way many trainers work. However, if your looking to train your dog using the drives she has, your going in the wrong direction. PJ: K9: yes, it will raise self control, just means you have a dog that prevents itself going into drive in AVOIDANCE of a correction. It means what you are not doing is using the dogs drives to get the most out of her, which might I add is fine if you have no goals to use her prey drive. If you wanted to have her retrieve, run send aways, any type of high energy work, you dont want to raise thresholds to prey drive. If you just want an obedient pet, you do. ************************************* LL: K9: many people will disagree with me here, but I believe that the dog has no willingness to please its handler, UNLESS, 1. the dog feels that displeasing the handler will cause the dog discomfort, 2. the dog feels that pleasing the handler will get it drive satisfaction, I believe that dogs could care less how satisfied their handlers are... LL: K9: Now I have some questions for you.... Since working with Stamp, & now I believe that you train your puppies in drive, whats the difference results wise? Before training this way, did you believe that better results could be gained (if they were of course)? What have you noticed with the dogs attitude when training in drive compared to the previous method, which might I add was obviously successful.. (Note: Lablovers dogs are what I believe to be genetically drive superior to any pet dog you will find, she also spends countless hours working her dogs doing what ever it takes, including training with a broken leg lol, to get results, so her results may not equal others results) I tell any client interested in this method that, it does produce superior results if you have the dog with the drives & nerves required, but, it is strenuous, very physically active, you need think fast etc etc.

PJ: K9: no, your just the person threatening correction if she tries for prey drive success. This is avoidance training. You need to manipulate the prey item & train her to comply in drive. PJ: K9: your simply raising her threshold to prey drive, raising her self control, whilst valueable, this is not training in drive. PJ: K9: your avoidance training, useing ball as distraction. This in turn has raised her threshold to prey drive. PJ: K9: Im not keen on using prey items I dont own, own as in control. Wildlife do things based on their levels of avoidance. I use a controlled set of items until I am ready to proof. PJ: K9: I teach the sit in drive, then drop then one heel step, 2 heel steps etc. Pj: K9: yes, however, some trning must be done with ducks as distraction before dog can be proofed with ducks.

A: K9: as he has had success there in the past, he may not fully believe it, but he will learn that even an attempt is not worth it when there is another item that will come, right there. A: K9: I consider that normal & valueable, if he didnt try beating you in training, he would do it when you were proofing him & may win... A: K9: then you know the answer, you wont attempt to proof him off leash until your 100% ready. A: K9: dogs can take quite a high correction in full drive, modern collars dont go high enough to blast a dog off a chase, it takes some time to teach the dog how to focus & turn low stim off, not overcome pain.

A: K9: training under distraction is allowing him to make that decision & fail when he makes the wrong decsion. Train him in prey drive so that he "understands" that he will 100% guaranteed get his prey item (the ball) if he heels. This is taught under low distraction, if he attempts to get the ball by jumping etc, he gets no success & meets a correction. When he has a good heel in prey drive it's time to add distractions. He should be given the opportunity to make his decision to chase ducks, or heel with you, each time he makes the wrong choice, he meets no satisfaction & correction, same training as when there was no distraction. K9: when he is taught that the chances of getting the duck are zero plus it brings a correction his way, he will change his mind. K9: so it will take a little longer.. K9: you also need to look at your thinking... "the prey object he COULD gain" You also believe that he has a good chance of defeating you, this needs to change, lol. You need him to believe that the only way to get drive satisfaction is to do it your way, he "will" get the ball, & he WONT get the duck, take drive satisfaction where you will get it, not where you wont....

HD: K9: yes we are talking prey drive. HD: K9: defence??? HD: K9: Defence is a survival mode for the dog, I cant see how you feel that you should be shifting your dog into defence for just about anything, but perhaps you use different terms than I do. The dog can be heeled away in full prey drive if the dog is trained to believe that you provide prey drive satisfaction. The other option is to correct the dog out of prey drive, extinguish drive & put the dog into avoidance so that it may comply with the heel command out of drive. There is no defence there... HD: K9: Im not sure what exactly your doing, but I can tell you that it's not the only way, there is no one way to train any animal. HD: Then the dog would be controlling (reducing) its own prey drive in avoidance of a correction, it would also not see you as the path to prey drive success, but a limiting factor of success. HD: K9: In julies case, it's prey drive, howver, corrections reduce all drives.. ************************************************************ A: K9: yes thats correct. A: K9: yes the dog has paired or chained in the heel command with ending in prey drive satisfaction.

PJ: K9: you need to aqdd the drop & drop stay then the heel to her "drive commands". Then you can heel by things in drive if you want to. PJ: K9: what did you do? PJ: K9: or passed it, depending on your level of training. PJ: K9: corrected her when she broke the down stay. PJ: K9: she seen your tone of voice as an aversive & that extinguished her drive. You might remembver how she responded when I took her by the leash, she returned respect to me as I gave her strong leadership. PJ: K9: if you are training avoidance yes, if your training in drive no. Training in drive means that you will need to teach her heel in drive before using it.

PJ: K9: as she was pulling toward the cat, she was commanding you. K9: she wasnt in drive peak, she was in drive initialisation, she complied with the commands as she felt that you would allow her to have the cat if she did. K9: by not placing her in the drop but walking her past in a heel. PJ: K9: which means that she understands the command. K9: which means she isnt trained to walk on a loose leash under distraction. pj: K9: now she was in drive peak.... calling her only teaches her she doesnt have to comply.... Pj: K9: by training her under distraction, by providing that same level of stimulation & keeping her in your control.

K9: sounds like he has you right where he wants you.... lol

K9: training in (prey) drive is only of any use for a dog that has suitable nerves & drives. If your dog lacks either, then another motivator should be sought.