Steve K9Pro

K9: yes of course.... (except Spaniels fofl) just kidding...

LL: K9: I have a different program for imprinting, this is where I teach the dog to utilize its drives etc.. LL: K9: exactly, however, the socialisation & neutralisation goals should be the same, the steps may be different. LL: K9: lol, this is why I dont let them run with my older dogs, too much risk of them learning something I dont want. Also, here is an interesting one, when describing one of my programs some one asked me if my dogs offer new behaviours... My answer is this, not often, do I care? no. If a dog offers a behaviour, I will either like it or not, thats a 50/50 ratio... Im not happy with only 50% success.. If I want a new behaviour, I train it, exactly how I want it.

A: K9: its not really off topoc, S&N is about this too.. I walk my dogs on mezz floors... over drums, barrels, hieghts etc..

Tess: K9: I am certain I have raised lots of dogs this way & advised many more raise thier dogs too. I try & study the behavioural logistics & imapct before I add a training step to any program I have.

A: K9: lol, nothing wrong, my male from the moment training started has been taught that he can not be beaten, he knows no fear. He went through a period at about 4 years old where he was a little unstimulated by being attacked by only one decoy, he liked 3 plus.. lol.. He is old boy now 9 year old, but he still is 48 kgs of muscle, & can still has a bite like a vice. When people arroach the door to our garage where his pen is, he can move them away quite fast with his bear like growl... E: K9: yes, thats right, I dont sabotage my training by allowing the dog to gain value over something that will not help me later. My male will recall off a mate btw lol... M: K9:and with probably little formal training.... So, get a dog with genetics, good nerves & drive & add this to good training... imagine... ***************** Tess: K9: heeling under gun fire..... I take my dogs swimming, I can heel them whilst I swim...

Tess: K9: Our first thoughts were that the earth was flat.. Discovery proved us wrong... Why would you want your dog seeking good things from other dogs? Your dog may run up to another, only to have its but kicked, that doesnt even go into the obedience side... Tess: K9: everyone needs absolute reliability in a crisis, thats the time that those who dont train well wont have it. Tess: K9: that gets you off the hook time wise... Tess: K9: personally I dont feel the gains are there & the risks are warranted. My dogs love to play with me, they get plenty of it. Tess: K9: no, toys in my home are prey items & they are my tools. Tess: K9: like I said, not when they are developing, but now, yes, but not for them, more for some of the dogs I treat, each one of them has a less than moderate interest in other dogs. LL: K9: nerves followed by drives. lol.. TO: K9: companionship for the dog is build on a bond of leadership, if your dogs think you are God, its only better for the both of you... A: K9: I agree, but like you I dont feel it has any real value that I cant give & I wont let anything else suffer in favour of it, that includes the dog. Tess: K9: recall is the most important command, & its the one the benefits most from this ideal. Tess: K9: no come Rover down the park is good too, will your dogs recall under any distraction? Tess: K9: Im not really talking about just high level dogs, Im talking about basic recalls, I mean there are many people that have what they call a "pretty good recall", I would demonstrate that it is pretty poor under distraction... Im sure your aware of the PP trainers motto, "make yourself more attarctive to the dog"? Well when your the centre of the earth for the dog, your pretty dam attractive... K9: sit, stay (you walk away) come... lo.. R": K9: yes but the leader is rarely the human, I dont raise my pups running with my other dogs, again by 12 - 18 months they run togther, not until. Y: K9: sometimes I can walk up to someone with my dog & he will simply ignore them & their dog. If I say "say hello" he might give them a kiss or stamnd for a pat, but he doesnt really care... K9: I feel its a little bond depriving, not suitable for many dogs.. PF: K9: thats like me, remember neutral value, not negative value, sometimes I have my dogs loose with 20 protection trained dogs working, they cant interupt, nor fight, nor bite all the decoys before or after its their turn. A decoy comes out, I turn him into a prey item with a command, its like lighting him up. PF: K9: I used my male GSD a few weeks ago with a very big (80plkus kgs) dog aggressive dog, whilst this dog was hackling at him & growling 3 feet away, I raised my hand & gave him a drive command that seen him kick into prey drive & the other dog was blended out of his concern. Yes he has solid nerves but its that easy with this work.

A: K9: never before 18 months, & never without my supervision after that, I say when it starts & stops. If my dog was becoming too focussed on the other dog, I would stop it. A: K9: lol hurt or scared? Im sure you sent some people laughing with that one. In first 18 months yes thats a minor reason, but mostly so as they see me as all the fun they can find. A': K9: interaction for neutralisation is controlled, I bring a dog that has no interest in mine, wont play, puppy goes to this dog & it gets ignored, puppy is guided back to me & gets praise food etc... K: K9: I have used this for all my working dogs but I think these days its important for any dog. My dogs dont care to play with others that much, people can tell you that they have seen my dog have a little play with theirs, but when I recall my dog, there isnt one millisecond of thought, its compliance right now. This even happens when people are petting my dog, they will leave & come straight to me if I even look like Im going to issue some praise etc... There are so many aggressive dogs that are combative, or have poor social skills, that the chances of them destroying your dogs temp are high... I know, Im treating dogs like this every day... ******************* Toohey: K9: kinda snuck that one in already lol... T: K9: as she has been kept away for her life, she has a negative value to other dogs, this means that she will require desenstitization. I cant say if your doing the right thing without seeing you, however, I am careful with verbal praise with these dogs, she could be thinking "Im gonna kill that dog" & you could be saying "good girl".. I like to praise positive actions... Toohey: K9: no, I would be 1. temp testing the pup art 6-7 or 8 weeks. Then take it home if its what you want, the breeder can take the pup to shows then bring it back to you, you need to bond with the pup 8 - 12 weeks... I would also be concerned about taking 12 week old to shows, not worth the rsik in my op... yes there are dozens of people that dop it, many of those end up paying me or someone like me to help them later... ************************* FHR: K9: there are many steps I use but simplyfied, I set someone up to stand there, when my pup goes up to them they will not respond, its like my pup isnt even there, the pup is guided back to me & praised, played with so it see's people - dogs are of no fun, nor anything to be afraid of, but my handler is great... F: K9: to a degree yes, but people want/need compliance from the dog under distraction, the easiest way to over come distraction is remove it, my dogs see other dogs as no value, hence they are no distraction... tbc

K9: when I do a lesson with someone, their dog leaves here not pulling for me. The doig has learned to pull the owner around so although there is probably an 80% improvement with the owner of the dog, you will get to 100% with work, how much work? depends how long the dog has been pulling undetered & how efficient you are at the training, it wouldnt be out of the question to have a mature dog walking on a loose leash in 2 weeks, under distraction.

K9 we use them frequently for dogs during attack work also, removing pressure from the neck & distributing it evenly over the dogs chest. But never for training.

I thought about writing this thread so many times, now is as good as any. People often talk about that they have socialised their dogs, now its time to move on to something else. Socialisation is never done, it should continue on as necessary for the life of the dog. There is also a great misunderstanding about what socialisation is? Often people feel that when they have an aggressive or timid dog, it needs to be socialised. This is untrue. Socialisation in it's simplest form is introducing your dog to a new item, be it dog, cat, stairs, noise & teaching your dog that it has a value. Some people also believe that you should teach your dog that some items, such as other dogs have a positive value, in other words, are fun to be around. I don't agree with this but nor do I stop people from doing it. I just don't do it. I prefer to neutralise my dogs to everything accept me & what I can give the dog. So that is me, my affection, praise, pats, prey items & food that my dog finds valuable, not anything else. This makes every type of training go so much smoother & faster. I dont want my dogs tossing up if they would rather come to me or go play with another dog. This opens up a huge can of worms when it comes to dog parks, meeting friends & letting your dogs play etc. Allowing your dog to run free with many other dogs is a huge risk, many temperament defects such as unresolved pack issues, rank issues & fear issues can surface in a heart beat, resulting in your dog being attacked or attacking another. For those who like to see their dogs play with others, they also should know the risks. I want my dog to see me as #1, there really is no #2. It also removes the possibility of dogs destroying my dogs temperament & my dogs becoming too distracted by other dogs when I need them focused on me. my plan is to take my dog everywhere I can when it is around 8 - 14 weeks, I run it up stairs platforms & teach it to ignore people & other dogs etc. I make noises bang things & so on train all the moves, develop the drives I want. The next 8 or so weeks I keep the dog at home when its in the first fear period, this enables me to help my pup avoid the pitfalls in public. When I see the dogs temp firm up again, its time to start some serious training, by 10 - 12 months, the dogs training can be 100 % reliable, even though some think you cant get that, you can. I use the model (K9 Pro website) to help people understand temperament flaws. I would be interested to hear others thoughts on this.

K9: I believe they are restricted, however, a vet can overule any of that if they recommend it for treatment,

K9: no offence here, you will have to try much, much harder, lol. Martingale is limited slip, yes.

K: K9: first I should preface with, I only believe in 3 training collars, the prong, the martingale & the electronic collar. I allow the dog to decide which collar it needs between the martingale & the prong. The purpose of a correction collar is to provide an aversive, if the collar your currently using provides no aversive, then its the wrong one. If your dog will happily bounce off the mart with no loss of drive, you need to use a prong collar. K: K9: if the dog is beating you, your going the wrong way. The dog will never listen to you if it can gain its own success. K": K9: as do most people, look at the thread, Im so proud of Bear, Alibear put in the work with the right tools & method & has success. This will be lasting success.

BOF: K9: prong colars are not banned in NSW.... BOF: K9: I have no idea then why you would be using the harness...? Its not that you recommended one only, you have said that you use one to stop pulling, & now say that you can train your dogs to stop pulling, maybe its just me but I am confused here.

BOF": K9: I havent, I simply have responded to what I have read here. BOF: K9: as you mentioned its your choice, I personally wouldnt run the risk of walking two dogs in the condition you described your in, I consider it a risk that would see me commit my time more toward my dogs rather than a commitee. Although thats not really any of my business, you just mentioned it here. One might get the impression from your initial post that you would recommend the harness, but as one reads on, its seems your forced to use it to maintain safety & save time. BOF: K9: given the fact that we are offering advice yo someone who requested it, I give you this response. There is the option of walking one at a time, you just dont wish to commit the time. BOF: K9: in the scheme of things, I believe that you & your dogs would benefit from a training program & martingale or prong collar, this would train the dogs not to pull, provide safety & put an end to the discomfort that the harness provides. The problem I have with them is that by not teaching the dog not to pull, there is no end to the aversive.

BOF: K9: the world doesnt have to be perfect to stop your dog pulling on a leash without a harness... BOF": K9: The first piece of advice I would give would be to walk one dog at a time... There are other tools that will both provide you with safety whilst allowing you to train the dog. Bof: K9: dogs dont have to heel on one side, & you can have dogs heel 2, 3 & 4 deep... Bof: K9: Im not sure what your priority is, safety or time saving? BOF: K9: ************************************ WL: K9: has it? WL: K9: excellent! WL: K9: oh... WL: K9: I cant tell what you think of these at all? first "it worked wonders", then you gave an example of how your dog doesnt pull anymore, then you contradict that with "he starts pulling again so" & you conclude with "I agree with others that it wont fix the problem...? Maybe you missed it but thats what I posted? It will work as a maintenance tool, not a training tool.. ********************************************* BOF: K9: Like I said, I dont use nor recommend checks either, but just be aware that the chain did not cause the damage... No dog, no matter what the problem should be ripped off his feet..

K9: I would suggest that you start with a martingale collar, & you will need a trainer also, if you send me an email [email protected], I will give some contacts for trainers in Vic.

K9: No tool alone will stop your dog from pulling, what these do is create discomfort when pulling through leverage, when the tool comes off, you dog will be the same. Dogs stop pulling through training & leadership. The tools that you use can make that easier or harder. 'The tool you speak of is not something I wiuld ever use...

K9: How about I take a look at the video & make sure it's worth all your money first? Then if its good, anyone is welcome to a copy. Hows that?

K9: everyone is welcome to bring their dog, some people tell me when they havent brought a dog they pick up more as they are more focussed. Either way, I am happy.

K: K9: yes Im aware of the ban, however I thought you were speaking "generally" when you spoke of harsh correction collars, what were you speaking of? K: K9: yes as do I, just giving you the ideal behind those that do not praise after corrections.. K: K9: as in all our programs, the dog chooses the level of correction (compulsion) & if it is required, an over the top dog that wont focus can benefit from a correction...

M: K9: far from unstoppable.. lol..

MD: K9: well of course,, MD: K9: I guess so, providing UD is not lower than the level you want to achieve... There are many disciplines that exceed UD in the dog world, but I agree that a club like this one could provide a valueable service to the pet owner.

MD: K9: I would be a little cautious here, it's not like the services that your club provides are the same as a personal trainer, only cheaper, there will be a marked difference. That may not be limited to ones ability, rather a numbers disadvantage a club will have over a personal trainer.

K9: I feel it was a nice informalish nite where there were a few laughs, nice people & great dogs. I'm sure I heard someone mutter that I had worked those dogs before, Rex (Myszkas dog), yes, the other's I have never seen before lol, I swear! I did try & slow down Image's training, but Kysor was a true representation of how long it normally takes with that type of dog. I believe each & every one of the attendants can do this with their dog, with a little bit of pre thought & follow the methods I gave you, it always happens. Thanks for sharing the evening with me. Looking forward to the next one...