Steve K9Pro

K9: You probably are over the house guest and whilst him leaving may remove the problem, I would be asking why your dog is dictating who can live in your home. I think your management must be very good or this could have turned disasterous. If you werent at all bothered by him staying there when he first arrived but your dog was aggressive toward him, I think this rules out your influence. Given the time span, I would lean away from the dog being fearful of him and suggest there are probably some rank issues there. I really think you should seriously think about getting some help, I will wage that there will be other areas of concern also. A large dog displaying aggression can be very dangerous.

K9: Or if her trainer was in the same state lol

K9: Both of you are doing very well

K9: Yes, sometimes it isnt something we "do" but anything that can help the dog predict reward. Like a treat pouch, putting on a training jacket, sneakers, grabbing a leash etc. These are all concomitant cues the dog has valued as a trigger when we may not even know they existed. They can be a problem in training as we dont know the dog is counting on them to predict reward, so when they arent in play, we may not have the drive in the dog. Like sometimes, something extra may be added that compromises the trigger as far as the dog is concerned, not just distractions either, even changes in handlers persona can have a great effect....

K9: How you teach him to sit isnt really that important as long as it isnt taught by force if you want the cue of sit to predict a drive reward. Once he knows sit you stimulate him with the toy and dont let him catch it, but stop moving it, even put it behind your back... Watch what he offers you... The sit will come out and when it does release and reward. Take a look on pur Facebook page, in the discussions, loads of people training in drive in my distance package, you can see their videos there that can help.

We have those trigger words too :D My older GSD will go out into the garage and sit by the car with a rattle of the keys, I know what you mean. Fiona K9: This is actually called a concomitant cue, something the dog has built in to help him predict reward that we dont always have control of...

K9: A much better way to look at this is, if you dont start with the reinforcer as the trigger, you never need to fade it out...

Thanks Malsrock, I do quite a lot of training for competition, working dogs and Government Departments etc, and because I am trying to muster every bit of motivation I can find, I dont use any corrective measures as far as physical corrections go, its absurd to think pumping out leash corrections is all I know, but when a dog has learned how to use its drive for evil, well some of them need to be redirected and slowed down and taught that there are limits, and sometimes, the prong is the right tool. There are very few tools I dont use, we have everything from Prong collars, stabilisation collars (AKA dominant dog collars) to clickers in stock, I use them all, I will use bread and butter if it works!!! There is such a focus on methods and tools, it is almost disrespectful of a trainer or behaviourist to group them because they use one tool or another. I say find someone who can help, who cares how they help as long as they do...

K9: There is also a great difference when training a dog for obedience or rehabilitating a family dog that is aggressive, and the use of tools sometimes is determined by the end goal and the starting point. All aversive tools should at some point be faded out if the training is being done correctly in theory.

K9: Yep some of the techniques in there are ok, it is just not where I "start"with an out of control lunging dog, or one that has little food motivation nor one that has rank issues. K9: I think though that your not supposed to keep it up, if the training was successful you would not need to keep correcting. I think that after they had reduced the aggression to a controlled level, some counter conditioning through the clicker is a good idea, I dont think just one or the other is a total solution. K9: Sure that would be the case if I introduced the prong collar in the presence of another dog and let the lunging dog figure out it could hurt itself, but I dont do that.

K9: Agreed Aidan, I almost was gonna type the ass u me thing, oops I did lol... I think when you end up trying to create competitive triggers, you end up playing the either / or game. I never find this a good way of training, say we look at the recall for example. People who have a dog that has a high value for other dogs, want to recall their dog away from playing with other dogs, its either come to the owner or play with the dogs. The dog chooses to play on, the owner gets angry. On this day of training, it was never going to be about the recall or not complying with the recall command, it is more to do with the value the owner has vs the value the other dogs have. Once someone has that situation, I would rather run a controlled recall on a line and release the dog to play with other dogs as the reinforcment for the recall. Then it isnt either or, its win win. I dont think when treating aggression in the early steps, it is really any different, its not save yourself through aggression (and get corrected) or do what I say (and dont get corrected). I think that is a lose / lose situation.

K9: First I wanted to say Shell, you rock! You came to me with a "Red Zone" dog that was so confused, lost and frightened, you turned his life around... And then, I must be the a little slow because I cant for the life of me ever actually use my imagination to accurately determine how something will work, I have to try it or use it first. I guess it is hard not to look at the pinch collar and make judgement on its looks but its looks really play no part in defining how it works. Imagine when the clicker was first invented, take a look and listen to it and then try and make your judgement on its usefulness? Even today when people who have never heard of clicker training are told about it, they look for the cameras to see if you're having them on. ;) "The pen is mightier than the sword." How can that be? The sword is a huge sharp metal object and the pen is a little often plastic thing? I guess it comes down to the way it is used, doesn't it? There are a few people here who haven't used a prong collar but are making a lot of assumptions on how they are used, see again I must be slow because I thought they could be used many ways, not just one. ;) I am not suggesting anyone go and use one either, but for things that I have never used or tried, I don't pass judgement on or advise others for or against things I really have little to no knowledge about. I feel the only true way to decide which is better or worse is to try both options. I can spill out a lot of jargon too and talk about punishment, interrupters, conditioning etc, but in reality none of those things help people with their dogs. It wouldn't have helped Shell and Zero, so what value do they have really? Many people approach rehabbing dog to dog aggression by using distractive measures, I think it would be one of the more common methods, others attempt to correct the aggression calling it bad manners or unacceptable, that's pretty common too. I don't do either, I don't think distracting the dog is any way of teaching it to be comfortable around a trigger for aggression, so I want the dog to know the other dog is there, know what it looks like, know what its doing and to come to terms with that. I didn't use a prong collar to distract Zero away from other dogs, nothing of the sort, nor was he corrected for lunging, misbehaving or being aggressive, he was taught (in the absence of other dogs and any distractions) impulse control. He was taught a target behaviour, to walk on a loose leash and seek guidance from his handler, his Mum, Shell. There were a lot of other programs supplied too to solidify the bond, add communication to the relationship, improve impulse control around positive influences and of course finally desensitize him to other dogs and counter condition their value from negative to positive. Now people can go and copy what I just wrote and apply it to a dog that is aggressive and more often than not, it won't work. The root of the behaviour must be considered, the aggression driver must be accurately diagnosed and a specific program must be written for this particular dog. It would be easy if all dogs were the same, but they aren't. Sometimes the reason for going to a prong collar is to suppress some hyper active behaviour so that communication can be established, once this is there often the suppression is stopped and more conditioning is applied. When we have the communication system established I try very hard to get the dog back onto a martingale or flat collar and use a variety of methods, strategies and programs to achieve this, including Touch Techniques, Clicker Training, Training in Drive etc. In fact I will use whatever will work regardless of how I will be judged by others. I have a lot of people come to me that are just lost, they cannot control their dog and it is aggressive, whilst coming up with plan that would be applauded by dog enthusiasts here would be great, some people don't want technical steps, can't do them in fact, some don't want to spend 12 months conditioning their dogs not to react in a certain way, they need to see results now to regain faith and invest in a program and their dog. Dog aggression is a strong trigger for anxiety in people, regardless of the size of the dog, a person's loved pet that is displaying uncontrolled aggression can really turn on a number of horrible fears and phobias in people and the longer the aggression persists, the more likely this will end up as a managed behaviour rather than a cured one, in both human and dog. I can focus on only what is best for the dog and leave people to fend for themselves with their fears and anxieties, but I will leave it to you to guess how that turns out for the dog. Should people have more patience, trust or faith? Probably but right now they don't or they are scared, and if they don't see a way to get a handle on things, often in the first session, they euthanize the dog. We can all rave about how wrong that is, but it goes on every day anyway. I work with a couple of Psychologists in helping people deal with serious problems they have related to dogs, it is fact that people begin to feel putting down their dog is the right decision when they are in this frame of mind, only to be end up distraught later on. People bring their dogs to me, I invest myself in their dogs and care about them too and do everything in my power to get that dog to where the owner and the dog needs it to be.

K9: yeah must be that's the second joke in 24 hours!

K9: looks like I need to be operating the remote next time Huski lol

K9: why is that the only game you can play? how about fetch, frisbee, chase me? K9: You may also be reinforcing the teeth action lol... I would go back to your behaviourist and explain your problems. It very much sounds like you have leadership problems. K9: rememeber the dog can never start the game... Yours thinks he can,. K9: I was going to say that it seems like a lot of work for your mum, until I read she was 81! My god stop giving her all the work to do! Put the dog outside for the time out... Did the behaviourist come to your home and do they know your 81 year old mum is doing laps in and out of the room? If they did, get a PROFFESSIONAL to help...

K9: Yes it is unacceptable, but I think going for an e collar is a bit over the top to slove this simple problem. K9: well like I said.... K9: Ok so who is stopping you? why look for a solution when you already have one? E collars arent extreme at all, well if you use them correctly that is. Sure you could stop the biting during play with one, and it wont harm the dog or the relationship either, there are just a billion other ways that are pretty much easy and free.. Just try some elimination training, start the game, the instant a tooth touches you, end the game and leave the dog alone. If your dog likes the game it will learn not to put teeth on you. If your dog doesnt like the game it wont learn this valuable rule, but if your dog doesnt like the game, dont play it...

K9: Yes it is a very good unit! K9: Yes its a static pulse collar, not sure what else you might need to know, the specs are right on the Big Leash Website. K9: Hmm not sure how RSPCA endorsements would help? They arent trainers? K9: yep fully tested quite a number of them, great quality unit. K9: Hmm, how cruel do you think it is?

K9: Somtimes it can be simply an annoying habit started off by something as simple as spring... There may be no easy fix and if the barking goes on to long it can break down neighbour relations and some neighbours can take action. It might be time to look at a Bark Deterent... It is a good idea as PF said to speak to the neighbours, we supply a letter with our bark deterents now that you can reproduce and deliver to them if communications are strained.

K9: I am pretty happy with our Huck and Hurley toys, we have never had one returned and they come with a money back guarantee or replacement (your choice) if your dog can destroy them, and they are soft...

K9: Guilty of not reading the whole thread but I would base my answer on the "it depends on your goals and your dog" principle. Some of the guys doing my Distance Program have had some stunning results using drive that have made taking rewards or even being distracted virtually eliminated in most situations and this is what I would use on a dog that was competing and needed all the drive it could get, over using a correction. There are some great video's of Terraniks Ahsoka, Rivskys Zuma, GSD dog 2?s Indi and Super Ed doing some extraordinary work under big distraction... On the other hand, if it was a dog that just needed some minor obedience, there isnt anything wrong with a correction or two either, just depends on the goals really....

K9: I am sorry but this is bad advice. Number 1, no one is going to read any book and be any where near qualified to deal with aggression from any dog. Number 2, most clubs are staffed by volunteer instructors, not behaviourists and they are not qualified to deal with aggression, nor is what clubs or breeds clubs are designed for. K9: Beagie there is no way you can diagnose what is going on with this dog, at best it is a guess, I would also suggest it is a bad guess. There is safety and welfare of people and dogs at stake in this thread, I would warn you not to give advice your not qualified to give, you could get someone badly hurt.

K9: In hindsight her being attacked twice tells us that, she either has the issue that causes the fights or she has one now after being attacked. K9: The e collar is a fabulous tool, used correctly, but without any foundation training on the e collar it is simply a sharp poke in the neck, which can be a stimulating correction to a dog going into an aggressive mode. I would stop using the e collar at once, on both dogs. It sounds like your trying to use supression as a total cure when there will be a number of processes required to reduce / eliminate the aggression. K9: This time... K9: First I would play it safe and separate both your dogs when ever they are not supervised (directly). Next I would not walk them together at all until you have good improvement in their behaviours and they would get no off leash time anywhere. I would not let your dogs interact with each other when your children are around. Finally whether you can afford it now or in a month, you will need to get help from a professional. This problem is psychological, no different than if one of your dogs was sick and you were having trouble scraping together the vet fee, it is a medical emergency now or at least it soon will be.

K9: I am going to get my bike and prong collar now!!!!

Possibly because she's reeeeally old and finds bending over a challenge?? K9: Hopefully too old to have DOL internet....

K9: without writing a book here, as he goes into the heel position, motivation is there, but when heel movement comes it is signalling the wrong message in his head. It is signalling reward wont be coming soon so he loses interest, yes? I might try retraining the heel with a new phrase and being a bit more surprising with the reward closer to the beginning. If he lags at the beginning you certainly need more motivation, if he lags after 5 seconds for eg, I might think your running out of drive and this may be either genetic or habit. There are ways to fix either though.