Steve K9Pro

K9: dogs trained in old days for the military used methods that seen the dog very difficult to transfer, it wasnt anything to do with this type of program, but the way they trained "other" things. More War dogs were PTS due to public liability reasons, quarantine risks etc than not being able to go to a new handler. I have some security people that have several dogs handled by many different handlers...

I will be emailing it this week or early next week.

BOF: K9: I cant see anywhere here where I said this is the only way? maybe you can point this out to me? BOF: K9: thats interesting, this thread is many pages long, seems you have read them all, I started the thread, but you dont care what i say? foflmao... Some people shoot themselves down... BOF: K9: then you may want to recheck your information, I might also add, I cant see where I have mentioned this has anything to do with e collars or prongs? So I guess your looking for the Attack K9 thread, I believe it happens over PMS, there is a hot tip for you... Bof: K9: which method have you seen me demonstrate? oh thats right, none. lol. So simply your making some pheeble attempt to have a shot at me based on another thread... dear dear.... BOF: K9: seems you have no problem breaking the laws of this forum. K9: Now if you wish to discuss something I have sadi in this thread, or disagree with me, thats fine, but please stick within the rules.. My Momma always said, if you have nothing nice to say, dont say anything at all...

LL: K9: no apology required, just makes me laugh as I do the same thing.. LL: K9: lol do the opposite keep going! *************************************** SP: K9: no, the work is already done. Sp: K9: this type of dog will be just like any dog that lives on its own when at home, even if there are other dogs. SP: K9: the Alpha is supposed to be that, few people cover it well enough & hence have issues. Sp: K9: if you hold the Alpha status in your home, thats what you would be anyway. Sp: K9: the apealing part should be that the dog is less distracted & easier to train, with less risks growing up, adoration is a side effect. Cat people wouldnt like this... SP: K9: yes. it removes distraction by neutralising items, it removes fear through socialisation. Tess: K9: I said I would be happy to listen to any concerns you had if you had experiences to back them up, you giving me hypotheticals vs my real time experience is a no win situation for me & this program. You can keep building your hypothesys until you fall outside the realms if canine behaviour & then exclaim , see there is a situation that this would fail... lol. I have heard you numerous time tell me that you would prefer a more doggy dog, one that can occupy itself so that you can spend your time elsewhere, you like watching dogs play, I answered with my thoughts, it doesnt change the way I feel or the results I have gained with 1000's of dogs over the years... Simply put, I am well aware this isnt what you would do, Im also well aware its against a "theory" you believe in & have not tested it in any way, so the simple answer is, dont use it. Others may gain something from it by using it in whole or in part, or at least effecting some area of their dogs life.

Tess: K9: a percentage of them would see other people, & a percentage would just treat the dog like garden furniture. Others have the dog put down.. This is an offering of a program that is very low risk to the dog, it has no down sides, for those who will spend time with the dog, having said that, some people like their dog being self sufficient, as I said earlier, it gets you off the hook. This program will also make every part of your obedience, sport & relationship go smoother, whether you want super high performance or just a pet. Again, you dont have to do it... If you were to feel that there were areas of concern, & you had experience to prove those, I would be more than happy to discuss it...

K: K9: I raise my pups separate from adult dogs. K: K9: not minimum socialisation at all, my dogs get exposed to other dogs, all noises, heights, caves, water, you name it, they just dont get to like them so much that they would prefer that over what I ask them to do. So adults dont see things as new, just of no value, boring.

N: K9: very easy, set her up to see prey, she goes to chase, you make her fail, then immedietly start with your toy game. Over & over again until she knows where success comes from, you. N: K9: dog that has low drive = more captures, dog that has high drive less captures, every dog the game always ends with you making the dog try & get the item & miss, then you put toy away & leave dog to wish she had tried harder, & next time she will. The above is a basic drive elevation game.

K9: Lablover, how do you always make threads turn into nerves & drives? fofl..

Al: K9: probably not, but not enough info to tell, if he is the Staffy in the pic it could be separation anx.

Tess: K9: Its open for you to comment, but respect is earnt, at least thats the way i see it. I cant say I will respect your ideas when they fall outside of my beliefs, studies, tests & experience. Your certainly welcome to post them though. I suggested that the experience I have dealing with hundreds of clients has given me the idea that everyone wants a compliant dog, I thinks that a through test, although it doesnt cater for people who dont care for any obedience or respect, those people never come & see me I guess. T: K9 to a degree, tests start outside of distraction & move into distraction, usually. H: K9: well thats nice... H: K9: I will try to take him on my leash at the seminar, unless he is too stressed, then I will have a look at him lunch time. Ninaandted have a great little lab girl that I'm working with, the methods I used on her may give you a break through... May not too, depends on many variables.. N: K9": this comes from satisfaction from the other items being greater than the toy, the idea of what Im talking about here is to overt that from happening, but for now, your dog should only see failure from attempting prey drive satisfaction from anything other than your one toy. N: K9": this means your dog needs less wins of the toy & more frustration, this will elevate drive for the toy.

K9: the tests themselves arent difficult, interpreting the results takes experience.

rather than recommend anything I would prefer to show you what I would do with him, I would do some special bonding excercises, some hidden treasure excercises etc, but there are some very good trainers in Vic, many of them on here.

M: K9: prey for someone to try & break in... lol.. Lay about. Hunt rabbits birds & the occasional neighbour. ******************* H K9: then if your struggling with prey, how is food & pack drive? H: K9: bravo, can you imagine going to a trainer that said, your dog hasnt got enough drive to be a pet, get another one? Or choose a breed more suited to you? H: K9: that would be great.

K9 wrote Tess K9: opionions vary, dogs dont understand sometimes, they will let you down under the highest distraction & comply under lesser ones, thats the opposite to what you need. In no way am I saying here this is what everyone should do, its what I do & many of my clients have done & are doing, some of them for the second, third 10th dog. Majority of people here that have training questions would not have these questions had they followed this program. Tess: K9: I dont know anyone that doesnt want a dog that listens to them, trains easy & is compliant. As far as the relationship with the dog goes, Im going to guess that you havent tried this program, so I dont think your qualified to comment on the relationship or lack there of that it may or may not create. Running the theory through your head makes for great daydreams, daydreams dont maike good training programs... lol Tess: K9: As I remember, it was you who asked me the question... Having a dog problem solve creates stress, the dog gets satisfaction out of finding success, but stress out of working it out. This is a pressure on pressure off system that many softer dogs crumble under. I get enjoyment out of teaching my dog exactly what I want it to do & watching it do it, exactly as I have taught & get faster at it. This brings the dog satisfaction without the stress. You may enjoy watching your dog play guess what mum would like to see, but many more people just want the dog to do what they want, easily. For every behaviour your dog offers, there is a 50% chance it will be something you dont want. That means no satisfaction for the dog, I wont use a training program that has (at best) 50% chance of success for the dog. Tess: K9: reliability only seems to come into place when the sh1t hits the fan. Poor planning really... Tess: K9: I would prefer to call it, someone without a problem dog & without high goals trying to tell others in those situations how it should be... M: K9: I have watched hundreds of hours of video of dogs through the day without anyone home, over 90% sleep 90% of the day, toys or no toys... Toys linked with you provide play drive or prey drive satisfaction, watch a dog play with its toys by itself, not so much fun. Tess: K9: the first thing you should know is that the limit is in your head, the second is that the limits your imposing rule out the majority of dog breeds for you, finally, your method of choosing the right breed is of no use to someone who already has a dog. Tess: K9: not everyone enjoys driving sports cars either..

K9: these are the steps people need to take if they have the dogs that fall into the low drive scores & they are desperate to train in prey. I too wouldnt be backing the results gained but I dont back lower drive dogs. LL: K9: yes, this is a good test, chasing with other litter mates determines prey drive level, the one who tries hardest has the most drive, the test on its onw is a nerve tes, to see if it can go into drive in a strange area. To add to this, say I sold a puppy I had completed this test on & they came back saying it wouldnt go into prey drive in a strange area, this tells me the S&N went wrong, as genetically the pup did have the ability. LL: K9: so do I but its a nerve test, when a dog starts to poop, does it do it regardless of my location, or does it circle when doing it, keeping an eye on everything... This tells me much about the dog, a strong nerved dog doesnt feel open when in that mode..

K9: if the heel command is of no use to you, there is little point training it, I prefer a non formal walk position, thats what I teach pets... K9: dogs pull towards something they want, when you start & stop, stopping doesnt break the focus but instead creates frustration, frustration raises drive which will make him pull more... K9: he is 9, lol, poor ol fella has his own adgenda & will be determined on keeping it...

PJ: K9: as you can imagine, with all of the prey games I play, flies & birds arent any where near as satisfying... PJ: K9: A dog with a high prey drive requires big satisfaction, flies may occupy the dog but not satisfy it. I use fly traps here, we dont have any flies... lol.. Birds, they hunt them with rabbits, & they catch them often, but often isnt like with me, 100% of the time.. PJ: K9: she may have alos been in avoidance... SP: K9: new handler takes over... Sp: K9: your dog has a negative value for someone bearing food, its not the same. New handler takes over, spends a few days with the dog, starts playing he will take over. Sp: K9: of course, dogs learn to sleep when your at work, interact when your at home. Sp: K9: my dogs are in my garage where they have pens when im training, this can be 16 hours, of course I toilet them every 6. They sleep, so when they come out, if available they can work. Sp: K9: dogs in the wild dont run up to strange dogs, animals or people... So its no different. Sp: K9: try thinking of some of the things you dont like, you might find they are connected with the things you do... ************************ K9: when you organise it ************************ Its not normal for dogs to befriend any dog that comes along, thats something we add... If a wild dog in a pack ran up to another, when it came back the Alpha would more than likely issue it a correction... The dog is part of your pack, so this is a totally natural thing. The dogs I have raised this way dont want for anything, many people when they see my bitch loom at me say "my god, she adores you"... She knows I have everything she could ever want or need...

LL: K9: glad your enjoying the thread, I was hoping people wouldnt think it over the top. I have read similar studies, & when we teach bite work & prey drive work, a lot of people like to have puppies watch on, Im not a fan of this, other than the risk of line aggression transferred to the pups, (dog turning & biting pups) we cant really install each step in the dogs mind, its see's a whole picture & without foundation of each step, the work often falls apart when ever there is any pressure added. You also miss a great opportunity to bond with the pups from 8 weeks on. When I did the info nite of late, 85% of the success I got with those dogs was through leadership, this is very easy to obtain when your the centre of teh dogs earth... ********************************* H: K9: I remember working with a very good US trainer years ago, he was teaching tracking, someone had been putting a botcher on the dog, to keep its nose on the ground, he said this "if the dog wont sniff on its own, you need another dog or a goal to suit that dog". He meant you cant make a dog do something it wasnt designed to do, this wasnt a breed specific comment, it was a temperament specific comment. Your dog may or may not have sufficient prey drive to be trained in prey drive, it may have nerve issues that stop the dog going into drive, or going into drive around you, there could also be a control thing limited/restricting drive. These can all be tested, but look at the section I wrote about drive, if your struggling to get drive, best to find another motivator. To develop prey drive in a dog that is interested in toys you need to determine where the problem lays, nerves, control or is the dog unsure what to do.. Its always easier when they are pups as they are less respectfull of you & thye control thing doesnt play a part... Can you tell me more about your dog when toys are used? H: K9: this is where I talk about positive & negative drives, positive prey, food, play, hunt etc. Negative avoidance, defence, rank etc.. When the dogs nerves are weak, the negative drives kick in & you cant get the positive ones working... Negative drives will always over rule positive, as they are basic survival modes. I would start by tying up the dog in your yard, no other dogs. Flat collar or harness. Get a fishing line & attach a small rag, size of your foot for eg, unless your big foot lol.. Then stand way back & cast the rag into the circle, the moment the dog looks at it, jerk it away, as if the look of the dog caused the prey to flee... If you play this for 3 minutes, 3 times per day 7 days per week for two weeks, you will have a dog trying to capture the item or you will be 100% sure that you wont be using prey drive.

K9: I agree, if I have ti handle this dog, I usually use a bit of escape training, to get the dog comfortable near me, then go to food luring, when I have the dog up in temp I may try food drive... A good explaination I use is, a dog with soft nerves is like trying to push a baloon with a pin, fraction too much pressure & bang. Hard dog is like pushing medicine ball with 2x4, you can apply a lot of pressure with no problems...

K9: I have a drive rating in my head of what I would score each dog, dogs that have a drive rating lower than 4/10 due to nerves I dont recommend training in drive, it can be done when the dogs nerves settle but when the dog gets nervy the ob goes out the window. dogs that range from 5 - 6 / 10 are ok for general ob, 7 plus sports, Law enf, retrivers etc.. I think that whne the levels fall below that, its too unrewarding. When the dogs nerves get turned on, out of fear or uncertainty, it lowers the drive in each case, in the low level dogs, it bombs them out, in mid level it only gets average results & in the high level it takes the edge off the dog. So when I S&N its to keep things at their peak.

LL: K9: lol, thats an extreme understatement.. Not just pet owners, working dog owners, breeders, trainers lol... Having said that, many dogs do have a lot of say prey drive but their nerves are poor so they cant utilize the drive.. These people can go back to drive development, see if they can get the drive to go higher at home, then blend new environments...

LL: K9: this means that they may have a low threshold to avoidance, they see something that they dont understand, it triggers fear in one dog, dog with better nerves might trigger prey drive.. The foundation of a working dog is solid nerves, & a good pet too. You can have all the (positive) drive you like but it will not trigger when the dogs nerves kick in & trigger negative drives... K: K9: I guess this means your spoilt, lol... I find high drive dogs easy to work with but many trainers hate a dog that moves without force... K: K9: I think it falls back on the NILIF program, none or very little attention... K: K9: impossible to tell unless you seen & tested the dog before & after the event. But dogs that have starved once, always seem to be food motivated, same for ones starved for affection I would say.

K: K9: excellent question, I would say that; dogs raised with other dogs are what I call Too Doggy, they look to the other dog too much for everything... for other dogs, if you know what the dog needs, & provide it, I havent come accross a dog that this program doesnt work on 100%. I had a client come to me with a Belgian, out of control, high drive solid nerve young big dog... I taught her how to gain control, then satisfy ever need this dog has, 1 prey drive satisfaction, 2. pack drive satisfaction, 3 food drive satisfaction. In no time this dog was beyond belief, but the lady was dedicated & hard working.. She brought the dog to a workshop, some may have seen her, dog was called Rex & owner Jenny.. K": K9: of course, if the above dog had no prey drive, we would have satisfied it in some other way.. K: K9: the dog may be limited somewhat by lack of drives or nerves, but outside of that I have used this on many dogs, even LGD's with no interest in humans, no prey drive etc, still they gained a lot from it... When you havent seen this before, it looks like your dog working on its bets day under no distraction, as usualu when you add distraction, the work suffers, this program removes many standard distractions...

A: K9: it wasnt another GSD, so.. bad luck... or go hide where I cant see, lol.. Of course the whole concept was that, believe it or not, he was eager to hop off & run to me, no he isnt gay....

K9: Troy took it away after people were constantly using it on me. lol..