Steve K9Pro

A: K9: the key is that the dog never discovers that it can escape or turn off the stim any other way but compliance, hence the long line.

Lady: Do you love animals Ace?' Ace Ventura Pet detective : "if it gets cold enough...." FOFL..

S: K9: huh? can you explain? PJ: K9: you obedience train the dog to comply with your commands through whatever method works for you, dont try & de value something, you will usually fail or over do it. PJ: K9": thats correct, see your getting it... K9: thats correct, the boat has sailed... M: K9: remembering too that he was being stalked by an 80 plus kg dog aggressive dog that had made several aggression attempts on him... Good nerves & this program make for a very stable dog.

Anne: K9: Its rarely ever the full story, does the dog pull to get away from the owner? does it pull to attack another dog? does it pull because your other half is up the street ahead, does it pull when in flight from another dog? Is it domainant & will bite the handler after a correction? Each one of these & many more are common, but require different treatment. When a dog has a solid temp, the method I use I guarantee to have the dog walking next to me in under 15 minutes on a loose leash , I allow 15 minutes as I also explain every step I do, in reality, 3 - 7 minutes. I proved this over & over again at workshops & my last info nite, download the video & see, lol. But whilst I am running this method, I am constantly using my descretion based on the dogs attitide in training, more or less praise, have a break, less or more correction, more guidance less guidance. When I hand the dog back to the person, they have seen an actual demo, the dog is imprinted with the command, I have assesed the dog & the handler. When you hand out steps people walk at different rates. Many people would love a recipe to dog training, there isnt one. I can tell / show /demonstrate what I do but its in relation to the dog before & throughout the training. If you look at the time I & other traners here put into threads, you will see this simply is no marketting excercise lol, when I give advice its general or non risk related. You well know that if I gave out advice on how to do this & there was even one backfire, my fans on the other lists would be rejoycing & blowing it out of proporation, this would be way down the priority list to me, way behind the priority of the dog at least. You have mentioned that I gave you some advice on a prong a while ago & it was helpful, thanks for the acknowledgement, but before I gave you that info, I assesed that you had enough common sense to listen & you were consulting a local trainer as well, under those circumstances, the advice was given, at no cost & I was happy to do so. But when you dont have those assurances, & something goes wrong, the trainer suffers a little, the handler suffers a little & the dog suffers a lot. SR: K9: I would have thought that would have been disrespectful, this is a thread about halters, not other devices & methods. SR: K9: this is true, but I think that you will see from the small amount of clients that I have here, probably 200 ish now, that people leave my grounds & have the results, SAS posted that the dog was highly compliant that afternoon... Not weeks months years later... I have no issues giving advice here or elsewhere, is that to my benefit? Probably, means not everyone I come in contact with will make a booking, keeps my waiting list realistic, 2 - 3 months is standard. I often get emails from clienst whom I have worked with where some problem has developed, as I know how they train, I taught them, as I know their dog, I assessed it & as they know what I mean when I say xyz, I correct them & say, you dont need to come see me, save your money, do this, that & the other. 99% of the time, this is effective, 1% its not, but I at least havent figured out how to give 99% success with just an internet consult, every time, but working on it! lol.

S: K9: I dont believe in it, though I have heard of it. I have some awesome female / bitch clients. Its up to you to guess which one is the bitch lol. I also feel, flame suit on, that women make better trainers than men, they are better at multi tasking. Watch mum speaking to her friend in the shopping mall, she holds conv with friend whilst watching three kids, correcting one of them & changing the other nappy. Dad however gets into the discussion & the kids are swinging off the roof... I truly believe that less than 10% of dog owners are actually the Alpha..

A: K9: no, the way I use it is to communicate with the dog, its like a tap on the shoulder, technically called a behavioural interuptor. A: K9: through training the dog knows that each time a stim is felt, its followed by a command, this takes the dogs mind off the other & makes it easier to comply. It wouldnt work with the initial training & imprinting, which btw doesnt take long.

L: K9: sorry, the thread was jumping a page at a time & I must have missed them... L: K9: supposed to is not the description I think accurate, more like ideal if the Alpha is very high in priority to the dog. L: K9: There are probably many differences from the wild, but there will be anyway, domestic dogs need to accept leadership from a human rather than a dog, many of the behaviours a wild dog would do as normal would be totally unacceptble in a domestic application. Having said that, wild dogs dont get socialised to any animal outside of the pack, so it's not so much different there. L: K9: I believe every pack shuffles quite a bit, depending on the resource there at the time, I treat my dogs equal, the Alpha is not interested in petty squabbling in lower ranks, he wont tolerate it. L: K9:no, I said that someone asked me if dogs raised in this manner offer new behaviours, & I said not ofetn & I dont care, if I want them doing something, I teach them. That is different to problem solving, if I ask a dog to find an item for eg, the logistics of how to over come obsticles etc are chosen by the dog. L: K9: recondider the above answer & think of his ideas compared to mine now. The basics you need to understand with this program is, it suggests that you only socialise to a zero value, not a positive one, all things you may encounter in your life, this makes training go easy, plus reduces risks that are very real in a young dogs life when trying to allow dogs to play etc. It hasnt anything to do with stopping a dog from thinking. The dog cant think when he is nuts for another dog. L: K9: they run together 100% of the time now. They have tons of experience with other dogs, they just never were taught that another dog is the most fun thing in the planet. L: K9: they at times still do play with eachother, here is an example for you.. I walk outside the dogs are playing wither eachother, doing what ever, I am on the scene now & that is much more interesting than playing with the other. L: K9: I think anyone that generalsises a behaviour to one reasonshould be questioned. L: K9: where ever I sit, each dog lays down on either side of me, generally. No commands, thats just where they want to be. L: K9: not pretend, but have less interest in the bird, yes, run back to get praise yes, learned experience yes. CM: K9: its not like that either, lol, but can you say that when you walk out the back yard, your dogs dont even acknowledge you there? CM: K9: no no... this doesnt create that either... Your over analysing. I showed someone recently how one of my bitches is with me, I let her out in the training room, she walked in next to me, then went over to sniff the other person. The person & I began to talk & my bitch took that as a cue to give us some space so she lays down to one side, no commands. I was talking & sitting down, I look at my bitch & pause in my discussion, dog runs to me & sits, receives attanetion. I stop patting her & give no command but restart discussion, she goes & lays down again. She does not pester the other person for attention, she doesnt wander off, she doesnt push me for attention, nor does she shy away from the person or over investigate them, their bag or anything else. CM: K9: thats not written here, as its not part of the program, you dont need to do that at all. CM: K9: only a dog with issues or completely stupid would sit there wishing you were home, when your not outside or when your not home, they are fully aware that there will be no play, no food etc, so dont pine for it. CM: K9: course there is, lol, it doesnt create a clingy dog at all.. CM: K9: this means they are too doggy. I cant open my gate & go play with one next door & the other watch on. CM: K9: no, but having said that, you cant go backwards. CM: K9: so do mine NOW, as they are mature, but getting around it would be penning. I: K9: this dog probably see's you as the true Alpha & goes into pack drive when interacting with you, this is how it is supposed to be. Positive socialisation programs destroy that. I: K9'": handling is no problem, although its not as good as with me as there is no pack drive. I: K9: from here its best to go to clients dogs for examples, I wouldnt have anyone take my dogs away from me, with some of the training they have had, it would be like loaning one of my hand guns to a novice. A mistake at the vet such as the dog missunderstanding the vets intentions may see the vet get hurt. Other peoples dogs however could have this done, had they not had extensive bite work. I still would feel that the Alpha should take the dog to a vet for other reasons. I: K9: boarding is no issue, feeding is done via the TOT, but people coming through my gate are not seen as nothing, they are seen as a threat & would be dealt with accordingly. I: K9: rarely, but they may, from past experience, they wander off hunting. The dogs follow them. I: K9: most all do the same, or pick up sticks to trigger the handler to play. I: K9: they dont do any of those things, for fun they chew sticks they find, or harass the neighbours, lol.. I: K9: there isnt, but one day there may be, its a long detailed topic.

If you look at the name of the thread, there is a hint there lol...

S: K9: which means you have raised her threshold to prey drive. As some risks are there with these tools, I would prefer the martingale or prong. There is a trainer that I spoke with at length on halters in the us, he uses a fibreglass rod with snap on it, hooked to halters & prong & leash attched too, he uses halter to control head movement etc... he feels its great with no risk.

YB: K9: Ideally, you set the values in S&N you & your items being the highest. When your dog has a high value on something, it will need correctiosn or a loit of training to re assign that value. S: K9: yes its covered in my manual, but it simply works that the trainer begins to apply the stim later & later until it comes after the command, then not at all.

S: K9: ok, what I meant before is, what happens is that when you tap, tug or pull back, the location of the leash ring is much further forward than a neck collar, this gives you a leverage advantage over the dog & its easier to pull the dog back beacause 1, the pressure on the dogs facial nerves is painful thus reducing drive, 2. the neck muscles on the left side of the dog are being stretched, also paiful, as your on the dogs right, this increased aversive is why they seem to show results, with less effort. (imo)

yes thats how the guidance takes place. The stim enough isnt enough to make the dog go any where, many dogs will just stand there confused without guidance, you add pressure on the line & to lrelieve the pressure the dog walk your way, this in turn switches off the collar.

S: K9: how are you stopping her?

K9: I think I know what your talking about but know it by a different name, can you explain?

K9: its doesnt have to be as complivcayted as that, if you all the dog its done like this. Stim - command - guide - the dog makes decision to leave smell & stim is off. If the dog decides to go back its stim - command - guide - comply - release stim - reward.. Its a lot easier as there is time for the dog think, under no pain or pressure.

S": K9: yes, its called making a deal with the dog. You get my ball & I will let you play with my toy. Its why I dont teach the forced retrieve, I want the dog to want yo get the dumbell, not get it cause he has too.

S": K9: although everyone claims to have a method that differs from leverage over the neck muscles, the only two ways I have seen these used are: using the leash to apply pressure on the neck muscles, or delivering a check chain style correction. If that isnt being done, there would be no advantage over any other style collar.

K9: yes its called escape training, it works very well on nervy dogs, or dogs with fear issues, the trainer needs to understand how to read the dog very accurately though so he or she may direct the pressure accurately. I use this method on dogs that fear me as the have issues with men, strangers & the like. It works well with leash & collar & e collar...

S: K9: this isnt related to Lablovers dog, & I will preface to say, the level of training Lablover is at is far beyond anything short of Pro competitor level in a high discipline sport... ************** Ok, dog is given recall command, dog decides its more fun to go other direction, correction is fine to correct this. Add pressure to overcome distraction. 2. dog is given recall command, dog is scared of you, you dont add correction as dog wont come to you as it suffers pressure already... More pressure wont help... Simple. ********* LL: K9: lol.. well it isnt hard, once you get the concept. None of the dogs I bite train chase the man as the ultimate reward....

A: K9: I sure have, in fact a friend Lou Castle Im sure knows a guy doing this.. Its not all that new, e collar comps have been talking about a praise tone for year... This just uses the stim.. S: K9: yes thats correct. & why I find this great is that people fiund it easy to release the stim, they have wanted to do it since they applied it, but with clickers often forget to click, they never forget to release stim. S: K9: the beauty of it is that as soon as the dog works out that it can turn off the collar, this is a great time to add your normal motivators, like prey & food... S: K9: I agree with you on that, I dont start people with clickers but when they come to polish something learned & the dog is CT literate I use one too. But when some dogs understand they are in training mode, they get a little advanced & start jumping around as they know food is coming, you need to get their attention then give the command so you can click. E collar means that when you apply stim, dogs frame of mind goes into the mode "command coming which will equal reward" The dogs apear more clear headed, the commands happen fast. Some people have seen Myszkas dog Rex on the e collar, they all agree that his sit is lightning fast. S: K9: when trained correctly on the intro, they dont throw behaviours, they realise no default behaviour turns off collar, listening & complying do. Instead of buidling a compliant dog only, it makes the dog more focussed. S: K9: I intend running more workshops to public in 2006, yes. For training dogs, the e collar in my method leaves the dog clear headed with no turned on nerves. Its the most emotionless communicator there is. There is no witholding food, no high level corrections, no yelling or gruff tones, not needed. The longer stim provides time for the dog to think, you can use this low level to get results over corrections as corrections, to be effective, need to be more aversive, as they are so short in application & as they are an on off thing, they need to be higher in intensity rather than lower to get the message accross.

LL: K9: ok, 1. I would guess that he worked out that he could go off & get his prey item, when he got it, he didnt want to give it to you. 2. This added stress, maybe slowed the recall, & he may have suffered the consequence for slow recall. 3. When he mouthed I guess he also was given a consequence for this, correction, cuff under chin perhaps? 4. At the end of many training episodes, it probably looked like you were ignoring all the good he could do, only focussing on what he didnt do right & correcting him for it. I will show you at retriever seminar how the dog should not even go out for the prey item on the ground, but he should go out, & come back, for the one behind your back... As for corrections, they are only useful when trying to correct something that is not pressure related, ie: dont add more pressure when excessive pressure is the problem.

SAS: K9: thanks for the kind words, anyone with a dog aggression issue should never give up until they ahve exhausted all avenues, a large percentage of dogs will be totally over the aggression in a shoryt period of time, others can be maintained not to display aggression. Very few & are past the point of no return. PF: K9: lol, This is going to heppen with any tool thats fitted with no training.

K9: I 100% agree, I think some of them felt I was trying to sell my methods on the success of CT, when I wasnt... It is almost like the same thing, only the aspects are the reverse. The stim, unlike a correction or a click is held at a lower level over a period of time, this allows the dog to slow down & think.

K9: Its no secret I dont like head halters, any of them, the reasons are many. There is a moderate risk that the dog can injur its neck, many people have reported this. Others are unaware of any neck injuries I understand that, but I have wintessed it. The dogs tongue can be bitten when the leash is pulled, no other training tool casues this. Pressure applied to the nerves in the face of the dog cause the dog to show avoidance, often panick. The dog ends up complying as the drive has been removed. The dog knows when it is wearing it & when it is not, so this adds a difficlut training problem to over come when trying to go offleash. It promotes poor leash handling techniques as users often have to keep tention on the leash which applies discomfort/pain to the dogs neck muscles, thus reducing drive & the pulling. The aboe are only some TRAINING problems, below I have some behaviour problems I have seen. fear aggression evelvated as the dog feels even more less able to flight when head is controlled. Old rule in training is that "dog only learns when he offers the behaviour", making your dog look at you with a halter isnt the dog deciding to do it. Adding pain/discomfort to a dog that is less than confident destroys the bond when the dog has no control over it. Many Dogs plainly hate them, this removes the enjoyment of the walk which can add to behaviour problems. Yes I will accept that many people feel happy with the results provded by them, I have never seen dog that I could train faster & keep the dog more positive with a collar over a harness.

K9: the collar sgould be flat or harness, the tie out should angle toward ground, go to your dog & lift tie out high, so its a triangle from your hand to back tie to dog, Then walk away from the back tie keeping leash tension on all the time, at the end of the rope the dog may keep tension as you have introd the push pull response... Reward lunging & pulling...